Browse Forums Eco Living Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 2Jun 01, 2021 4:22 pm 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 5Jun 01, 2021 10:12 pm 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 7Jun 03, 2021 1:49 pm Re: copper corrosion from acidic rainwater. Seems like there is a pretty easy solution. We live on limestone country here, so should be easy to chuck a few lumps of limestone in the tank! "He says, however, that his research shows that a simple measure is to drop a bag of limestone chips into the tank to raise the Ph levels, reducing the acidity. "A bag of limestone chips added to a plastic tank has the same kind of effect that happens in a concrete tank which leaches lime into the water. "Alternatively, he says to add bicarbonate of soda to the water in a plastic tank" https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/20 ... 075218.htm Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 8Jun 03, 2021 7:56 pm Bob the non-Builder "To be honest, it’s not all about the price; as well as wear and tear, noise is a big factor". Noise is tangential to the pump's work load (and quality). VSD pumps operate at the speed required to meet demand. Using a standard toilet cistern that fills at a rate of about 6 lpm as an example, a VSD pump will only operate at the speed needed to supply 6 lpm. Most VSD pumps also have a small pressure tank that allows them to immediately supply pressurised water while the pump spools up to match the supply demand. You can also line a pump cover with noise cancelling insulation but you also need to ensure that the insulation doesn't inhibit the necessary cross ventilation needed to prevent the cover from becoming an oven. It's too bad that you are in the NT as I have a stock of 165 litre pressure tanks here with a 32mm connection, I don't advertise them because I restrict sales to our base product customers and sell them for little more than the price of a 100 L Pressure Wave tank. They were imported from the US to store RO water in the better coffee shops. The 'ordinary' coffee shops use tap water! Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Bob the non-Builder Can you add something alkaline to the rainwater to deal with that? Or could that be moderated by occasional flushes of mains water? Re: copper corrosion from acidic rainwater. Seems like there is a pretty easy solution. We live on limestone country here, so should be easy to chuck a few lumps of limestone in the tank! I suggest having limestone chips in a nylon bag lowered into the tank and tethered to a buoy for easy retrieval. In time, the limestone chips become less effective because they 'heal over' and are best broken again every 12 months. Click on "posts" in the link below then type "limestone chips" in the post search box to see previous H1 recommendations. https://forum.homeone.com.au/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=38282 Epson salts is also good to add to tank water when collected for potable use but it must be remembered that only a small portion of stored water is used for consumption. The radio interview is very good as the interviewees have done their own research by analysing their own anecdotal evidence. I have to add though that rainwater is most acidic when there is lightning. Neutral pH is 7 on the scale which is logarithmic. This means that pH 6 is 10 times more acidic than 7 and a pH of 5 is 100 times more acidic than 7. Normal rainfall is usually about 5.5 to 5.8 pH, this obviously varies due to regional atmospheric pollutants but during thunder, the pH can easily drop to 3.5. Apart from stationary acidic water reacting with copper pipe, some household appliances such as an iron don't appreciate contact with acidic water. You live in a high rain intensity region with a wet and dry season and if the roof harvest still flows to the tank once the tank is full and you have a thunder storm, your nice limestone neutralised water will be flushed out by acidic water. People live with this and it isn't life threatening but to have a good quality rainwater harvesting system, you need to be able to manage when the water is diverted to the tank. Low pH rainwater is low in oxygen and there are some simple means to restore the balance. About the only positive benefit of having water entering the tank from above is that the falling water oxygenates the water to a degree. Traditional (archaic) methods deliver water to the top of the tank and withdraw it from the bottom whereas the opposite is best practice. Bob the non-Builder I’ve been drinking rainwater from an outlet about 200mm from the bottom for 15 years now without problem. That’s with generous first flush diversion; addionally, the pattern around here is to thoroughly clean the roof with the first rain after our long Dry Excellent. That is great to hear. Here in Vic (and elsewhere), most tanks supply the pump through the drain valve fitted at the very bottom of the tank and the first flush diverter is fitted uselessly at the top of the wet system's vertical riser. I kid you not! Bob the non-Builder would the constant discharge from a pumped system create more turbulence, hence more sediment in the system? I don't know what you mean here. If you are referring to the pump drawing sediment, your 200mm high outlet that supplies the pump is an excellent height but if the water level is low when the water is falling near the pump's draw valve, then yes, there would be sediment resuspension. Fortunately, water entering the valve is mostly delivered from above the valve. SaveH2O A household using harvested water will want to have the pressure tank deliver an even pressure and a 30-50 setting is much better than a 20-40 setting. I'll elaborate on this. While both figures have a 20 psi differential, just imagine a scale from zero and the corresponding % of that scale for each figure. Don't you have pump suppliers there? Do you have irrigation outlets? Re pumps, their flow rating is from the pump but when water leaves the pump and travels through pipework, it is subjected to friction loss which reduces the flow rate. If you want to have a system capability of 40 L/min, you will need a pump that is rated much higher than 40 lpm. 1 psi = 6.9 kPa. Just to put everything in context, the Australian Standard for the minimum Probable Simultaneous Demand to a single dwelling is 0.48 L/sec (28.8 L/min). 40 lpm is a good figure. The problem is that your pipes are now hidden and some guess work is required to do hydraulic calculations but most houses have less than 500 kPa pressure with 400 - 450 kPa being common. 50 psi = 345 kPa. A pump specialist will soon have it sorted as to what is best. Bob the non-builder I was told.....- if the pump was rated lower than that it could damage the pump once the bladder was empty and the pump was directly supplying water. I'm completely ignorant of pumps, so don't know how accurate or realistic that is. The pump would be operating flat out delivering water as it is designed to do but only the very end fixtures would suffer water deprivation! The bladder would not empty because the pump always operates with higher pressure than the pressure in the pressure tank provided the pressure tank's pressure is maintained at 2 psi below the pump's cut in setting. The pump also diverts water into the bladder once the pump starts due to it being the 'demand fixture' closest to the pump, the resultant phenomena of a pipe having higher pressure at the nearest fixture to the pump than further along the pipe. The video below explains this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hSL9_eo4n8 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 9Jun 04, 2021 8:26 am SaveH2O You can also line a pump cover with noise cancelling insulation but you also need to ensure that the insulation doesn't inhibit the necessary cross ventilation needed to prevent the cover from becoming an oven. We have whole months where the ambient temperature doesn’t drop below 25 degrees and days are usually around 38-41 degrees, so it’s ovenlike without insulation, so I’d guess insulation wouldn’t be a good idea up here. SaveH2O It's too bad that you are in the NT as I have a stock of 165 litre pressure tanks here with a 32mm connection I could be interested if the freight didn’t make it too unreasonable. If that’s a possibility, let me know here or DM. SaveH2O I have to add though that rainwater is most acidic when there is lightning. If there’s something typical of Top End weather it’s incredible lightning storms, so you can be pretty assured that any decent rainfall is accompanied by high levels of lightning. SaveH2O Apart from stationary acidic water reacting with copper pipe, some household appliances such as an iron don't appreciate contact with acidic water. What sort of appliances would that be? I have a good quality coffee machine which I’d always assumed would be great with rainwater, but just recently the retailer said it should possibly have some mineral salts occasionally, as the electronic sensors operate off electrolytes in the water (I may not have completely correctly understood their explanation!) SaveH2O Traditional (archaic) methods deliver water to the top of the tank and withdraw it from the bottom whereas the opposite is best practice. Our rainwater enters from above and is discharged from (near) the bottom. Given our rainfall patterns (long periods of no rainfall) it wouldn’t make sense to withdraw from the top … unless we used a floating inlet of course. Or, would it make sense to charge a second small, say 500L, tank from the main tank and connect the pump to that? I.e. fill the small tank from the bottom and have a higher level outlet? SaveH2O Here in Vic (and elsewhere), most tanks supply the pump through the drain valve fitted at the very bottom of the tank and the first flush diverter is fitted uselessly at the top of the wet system's vertical riser. I kid you not! As far as first flushing, I have capped our downpipes (one on each corner of our 100m2 roof), which catches way more than the recommended minimum first flush. For a good clean I uncap them and let it flow out for a while before re-capping. Once capped no water flows through the downpipes and instead is diverted to the tank. SaveH2O Don't you have pump suppliers there? Do you have irrigation outlets? We do, but they mostly cater for agricultural uses, so while they’re very good at that, they’re not really on top of household use, except for basic pump and go. Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 10Jun 05, 2021 10:55 am Bob the non-Builder I could be interested if the freight didn’t make it too unreasonable. If that’s a possibility, let me know here or DM. The box is 55 x 55 x 98 cm which would make it prohibitively expensive to freight to the NT but I'll phone around on Monday and let you know. Are you in Darwin? Bob the non-Builder If there’s something typical of Top End weather it’s incredible lightning storms, so you can be pretty assured that any decent rainfall is accompanied by high levels of lightning. I think that limestone only reacts to acidic water and so it self regulates the pH level but I'll do some Googling later to make sure. Bob the non-Builder What sort of appliances would that be? I have a good quality coffee machine which I’d always assumed would be great with rainwater, but just recently the retailer said it should possibly have some mineral salts occasionally, as the electronic sensors operate off electrolytes in the water (I may not have completely correctly understood their explanation!) That rings a bell. You can get undersink filters that add minerals and correct pH but I am not knowledgeable in this area. I don't know if the coffee shops that use RO water add minerals but I ussume they would, More Googling I guess. A good friend owns a coffee shop but they use tap water so no point asking him. There are not many household appliances that use water but I know that a while back there were some health alerts re acidic rainwater being used in kettles and jugs with exposed nickel coating. How you would tell if the element was nickel coated, I don't know. I think that the thing to avoid is topping up the jug in the morning without first flushing the copper pipes. Just how much copper leaching there would be overnight is something I can't answer but flushing copper pipes when using acidic water is a frequent recommendation from credible sources. The main health concerns seem to be the body having a reduced capacity to absorb calcium and also possible accelerated dental corrosion (by comparison, orange juice has a pH of about 4). I wouldn't be topping up the aquarium with acidic rainwater either. Bob the non-Builder Our rainwater enters from above and is discharged from (near) the bottom. Given our rainfall patterns (long periods of no rainfall) it wouldn’t make sense to withdraw from the top … unless we used a floating inlet of course. Or, would it make sense to charge a second small, say 500L, tank from the main tank and connect the pump to that? I.e. fill the small tank from the bottom and have a higher level outlet? The smaller tank would need to accomodate a higher water level so it didn't overflow but depending on how far away from the house the main tank is, having a pump on a second tank at the house can be more efficient. If the tank is relatively close by and supplying power to the pump isn't a hassle, I wouldn't bother. The (200mm) height of the tank's outlet will provide good quality water plus you already employ good rainwater harvesting practices that deliver good quality water and minimal sediment to the tank. You can see the principle of the floating inlet in this link. http://www.crystalclearwater.com.au/waterboy/ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 11Jun 20, 2021 9:47 pm Thanks for all the comprehensive comments and suggestions so far! I've narrowed down my options to the following pump and pressure tank/s. Would be very appreciative of any comments about their quality and compatibility! Pump - Bianco Pumpz 108L/min https://www.whiteint.com.au/pumps/domestic-household/pressure-systems/bia-multi54nxtp--horizontal-multi-stage-pump-with-nxt-pro-pump-controller-40m-0-75kw-240v-808400 Pressure tanks - Reflex 80L (basically these seem more or less the same with the difference that one has a pre-charge of 2 Bar, the other 4 Bar - confusingly, this is listed as (59psi) for both models!) https://www.whiteint.com.au/pumps/domestic-household/pressure-tanks/ref-dc80--reflex-pressure-tank-dc-range-10-bar-80-litres-806052 https://www.whiteint.com.au/pumps/domestic-household/pressure-tanks/ref-hw80--reflex-pressure-tank-hw-range-10-bar-80-litres-806060 Additionally, I'd thought that bigger is better for pressure tanks, however I've since read on some forums that bigger means you have continually falling pressure until the pump kicks in, which can be a hassle with showers. Any insights appreciated! Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 12Jun 21, 2021 5:58 pm Bob the non-Builder It is a powerful pump but this doesn't matter so much when you use a pressure tank. The pressure controller is adjustable in Mode 2, that is, you can adjust the cut in and cut out pressure (but only for when a pressure tank is fitted). It was released about 3 years ago and cost about $165 when sold separately and is the only adjustable electronic controller that I am aware of. It is a beauty! Bob the non-Builder Pressure tanks - Reflex 80L (basically these seem more or less the same with the difference that one has a pre-charge of 2 Bar, the other 4 Bar - confusingly, this is listed as (59psi) for both models!) https://www.whiteint.com.au/pumps/domestic-household/pressure-tanks/ref-dc80--reflex-pressure-tank-dc-range-10-bar-80-litres-806052 https://www.whiteint.com.au/pumps/domestic-household/pressure-tanks/ref-hw80--reflex-pressure-tank-hw-range-10-bar-80-litres-806060 The tanks have butyl rubber which is an absolute necessity when used with rainwater. No problems with those tanks. You can adjust the air pressure...no problemo! Bob the non-Builder Additionally, I'd thought that bigger is better for pressure tanks, however I've since read on some forums that bigger means you have continually falling pressure until the pump kicks in, which can be a hassle with showers. Any insights appreciated! Shower roses are flow limited, the flow from the tank should still be sufficient. A bigger tank takes longer than a small tank to lose its pressure gradient but practically all tanks operate with a 20 psi cut in - cut out differential. A small tank's initial (faster) pressure loss is more noticeable and you can reduce the pressure difference between cut in and cut out from 20 psi to 15 psi if curious. A pressure tank will always operate without the pump at the start because there will always be water in the tank but once the pressure falls to the pump's pressure controller's cut in pressure setting, the pump will start. When this happens, the pump will be refilling the tank as well as supplying the end fixture but once the tank is full, the pump will still be supplying the end fixture while there is a demand. The pressure tank is simply just part of the supply pipe, the pressure controller doesn't know the difference between there being a pressure tank fitted or how long or short the pipe is or how much volume the pipe has, it only responds to demand (pressure loss) and as long as there is a demand, the controller will continue to run the pump the same as it normally would. You should set the controller's cut in 2 psi above the pressure tank's pre charged pressure (verify the pressure first) and the cut out 20 psi above that and see how you find it. Having a higher air pressure and cut in - cut out settings will make the initial pressure gradient decline less noticable but you probably won't notice such. Just remember that ideally, the cut out should be 70% of the pump's usual cut out setting. The tank's air pressure MUST be adjusted with the system drained and preferably checked twice every year. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 13Jun 22, 2021 7:18 am Write reply... SaveH2O Rather than draw water from the tank's anaerobic zone, it is best to draw the best quality water in the tank from about 200mm under the water surface. This is done by using a floating inlet filter hose that you can either make yourself or have an irrigation outlet make one for you. I actually was wrong about my setup - when I properly checked I realised my outlet is basically at ground level, i.e. a drain outlet ... that said I've never had a problem with water quality as I'm pretty serious about first flushing and so forth. As far as installing a floating inlet, the one you linked to required internal access to the tank. The access to my tank is way too small for anyone to get into. The irrigation shop suggested if I really wanted to, I could bugger around and install an elbow internally, going say 200mm up, to draw water from higher up. That would obviously require emptying the tank, which I could do early in the wet season, knowing that it'd fill soon enough. I think for the moment I'll just see if I can keep on top of water quality coming in and if that doesn't work, see about installing something to catch water from higher up. SaveH2O The suction hose must respect a straight length of 6-8 internal hose diameters at the pump. It is a common mistake to have a suction hose connected to a 90 degree elbow at the pump's suction end. I'm a bit confused by the language here. I think you're saying there must be a straight line from the tank to the pump inlet. But what does "respect a straight length of 6-8 internal hose diameters at the pump" mean - that the line from the tank to the pump should be equal to six to 8 times the internal diameter of the hose? I.e. if the internal diameter is 25mm, the line from tank to pump should be 150mm - 200mm? Also, in terms connecting tank and pump, this source (https://www.reefe.com.au/wp-content/upl ... akdown.pdf) suggests having a y-strainer or pre-filter, however some other places disagree. What are your thoughts? Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 14Jun 22, 2021 12:31 pm Bob the non-Builder I actually was wrong about my setup - when I properly checked I realised my outlet is basically at ground level, i.e. a drain outlet ... that said I've never had a problem with water quality as I'm pretty serious about first flushing and so forth. Any container that holds water has stratified layers that usually range from oxygenated low density water at the top to low oxygen high density water at the bottom. The bottom couple of hundred mm of water is commonly called the anaerobic zone (I am also guilty of calling it this) but this term is incorrect as anaerobic water is stagnant due to a lack of oxygen. This layer however is hypoxic at the bottom of many tanks. There is no question that water taken from 200mm under the water surface is the best quality water in the tank and water taken from the bottom is the worst BUT water quality varies considerably from tank to tank. Your location's rainfall pattern and your adherence to rainwater harvesting best practice for your location will always have good quality water diverted to the tank. Most of the water entering a water tank outlet supplying a pump is usually drawn from above but a large pump that operates with greater efficiency and draws more water when there is a pressure tank will draw a greater amount of water horizontally. This effect can be seen in the sediment layer and is known as rat tailing. Given the small cost of inline filters, fitting one shouldn't be an issue even if possibly/probably not needed. The following is for readers following this thread. The thing to strive for is to deliver good quality water to the tank and then deliver the best quality water in the tank to the pump. Few rainwater harvesting systems are properly designed to do this but having an effective first flush diverter is the first step. The following are first flush mistakes people reading this thread should avoid. 1. First flush diverters fitted with drippers waste a lot of water (4-8 lph) and are also high maintenance. Unless water from the drip line can be collected or otherwise used, it is best to fit either a timer that opens and closes at set intervals or else fit a manual draining system. A manual draining first flush diverter is easily and cheaply made. https://rainharvesting.com.au/products/ ... ase-valve/ 2. A large majority of first flush diverters are fitted to the top of wet (charged) system vertical risers. When it rains, the first flush diverter fills with the settled water retained in the vertical riser since the last rainfall while the first flust (dirty roof wash) is still in the downpipe. This observation is basic common sense yet the practice is prevalent. The photo below shows a typical but useless small first flush diverter (with dripper) fitted to the top of a vertical riser that receives water from a downpipe less than one metre away!!! You will also notice no discharge outlet on the riser to flush out built up crud in the infeed underground sump, the use of copper pipe (should also be lagged if exposed to the sun) with rainwater at the house wall and the overflow pipe fitted too high to the top of the tank (having no mitigation reduces the overflow pipe's discharge capacity). Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Bob the non-Builder I'm a bit confused by the language here. I think you're saying there must be a straight line from the tank to the pump inlet. But what does "respect a straight length of 6-8 internal hose diameters at the pump" mean - that the line from the tank to the pump should be equal to six to 8 times the internal diameter of the hose? I.e. if the internal diameter is 25mm, the line from tank to pump should be 150mm - 200mm? I mean the length of hose immediately before the pump, not the total hose length. Many pump manufacturers state similar in their pump's warranty terms and conditions. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 15Jun 22, 2021 2:26 pm Write reply... SaveH2O Bob the non-Builder I'm a bit confused by the language here. I think you're saying there must be a straight line from the tank to the pump inlet. But what does "respect a straight length of 6-8 internal hose diameters at the pump" mean - that the line from the tank to the pump should be equal to six to 8 times the internal diameter of the hose? I.e. if the internal diameter is 25mm, the line from tank to pump should be 150mm - 200mm? I mean the length of hose immediately before the pump, not the total hose length. Many pump manufacturers state similar in their pump's warranty terms and conditions. I'm still being a bit of a dingbat I know, but ... does that mean you COULD have an elbow coming from the tank, but the last 150mm-200mm (in the case above) leading to the pump need to be dead straight? Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 16Jun 22, 2021 4:03 pm Bob the non-Builder I'm still being a bit of a dingbat I know, but ... does that mean you COULD have an elbow coming from the tank, but the last 150mm-200mm (in the case above) leading to the pump need to be dead straight? Yes. You don't want high velocity turbulent water generating low vapour pressure bubbles entering the pump and impacting against the impeller. https://modernpumpingtoday.com/prevent- ... on-damage/ People get away with this sub standard practice when their pump is flow restricted by low flow end fixtures like cisterns and washing machines whereas you will have a powerful pump operating at peak efficiency. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Advice on pump / pressure tank combo 17Jun 22, 2021 5:48 pm If anyone's interested, this is my setup for first flush. We have a fully guttered house with downpipes on each corner, about 100m2 of roof. Each downpipe has a simple screw-on cap that is removed after rain, when capturing rain - otherwise it's left uncapped. (In the future they will be diverted somewhere better than on the ground next to the house!). The length of the downpipes is far more than sufficient for effective first flushing. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Each downpipe has had an elbow and cap added. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ The eastern (right-hand) downpipes take water to the tank - this isn't perfect as it leads to a bit of spillage on the western side in heavy rain, but it was the best practical solution that wasn't excessively complicated and expensive. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Water is diverted along floor level to the tank. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Outlets from gutters on each side. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Tank on base of cracker dust topped up with blue metal to reduce undermining of base. Outlet, currently by hose to jerry cans. Pump and pressure tank are planned to be mounted on concrete where white cabinet now stands. This is protected from sun and rain. As per the topic title, can I install a Heat pump HWS system instead of a water tank in Victoria. My gas supply has been abolished and the Ausnet (Gas company) website… 0 43 Hi all, My concrete tile roof (pictured here: https://imgur.com/a/d2GiHJH) over the last 5 years has gotten to the point it needs a clean. Unsure why previous owner… 0 1273 |