Browse Forums Eco Living Re: Water tank and pump configuration 2Jul 18, 2018 3:08 pm 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank and pump configuration 4Jul 19, 2018 7:27 pm 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank and pump configuration 6Jul 19, 2018 10:09 pm 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank and pump configuration 7Apr 20, 2019 9:16 am Ok, so things have changed a little since back then. I have attached some pictures of plans to hopefully make it a bit clearer. I am trying to work out how to get the two rear downpipes to drain water into the two 25k tanks at the front of the shed. Here is the information - Grantville Vic ARI is 115mm/hr - Roof catchment area 180m2 so 90m2 on the shed rear. - 2 x 90mm downpipes in corners of shed rear - 1 x 100mm DWV pipe carrying water underground, sloped 1:100. - Shed gutter height 3600mm - Water tank height 3070mm - FFD and leaf eater's will be fitted. Obviously with the leaf eaters i am not leaving much head pressure to push the water through. I am wondering if the head pressure will be ok or if there is another solution. I might be able to change water tanks to the squat tanks which would give me an extra 470mm but not sure the tank company will be overly impressed. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: Water tank and pump configuration 8Apr 20, 2019 1:50 pm This is a very common problem and the reason why a lot of people don't fit leaf diverters to the top of wet system downpipes. If at all possible, they should be fitted to prevent mosquitoes and other pests accessing the standing water. Your wet (charged) downpipe diversion will discharge into the tank's top meshed inlet but I don't know the inlet's height. Is it at the very top of the tank? What type of base will the tanks have and will this add to the tank's height? The head is calculated from the top of the wet system's vertical riser above the tank's top meshed inlet to the overflow point on the downpipe. If you allow for 50mm above the inlet's rim, you will have an additional 150mm head loss during a major storm event. Many persons (plumbers included) measure from the inlet to the gutter's sole which is wrong. The photo below shows a neatly installed vertical riser but note the closeness of the100mm pipe to the meshed inlet's rim. Before securing the riser, you need to make sure that the cover can be removed if ever needed. This installation had just enough room to do this. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ If we take the height of the vertical riser as 3.2 m and the height of the Leaf Eater's overflow level as 3.4 m, then you will only have 200mm head. The height of the vertical riser depends on the tank's top meshed inlet's height and any height impact that the tank's base will have but we will use a 200mm head as our example here. The wet system will have friction losses from the pipe plus friction losses from fittings (tees and elbows) expressed as equivalent lengths of pipe. The pipe friction loss as an equivalent length of pipe from the nearest charge point will be (as a guesstimate) about 45 m. I will use a worse case scenario of 200mm head for this example and 45 m of friction loss. The Hazen-Williams is a good calculator to use for this situation. http://www.calctool.org/CALC/eng/civil/hazen-williams_g The 100mm SN4 DWV pipe's internal diameter is 104mm. We need to change cm to mm. The roughness coefficient has to be changed from 140 to 150. The discharge rate has to be changed to litres per minute. As per the screen shot below, I have also entered a 0.2 m head. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ As you can see, the flow rate is about 350 l/m which coincidentally matches your minimum 1:20 ARI roof capture from all 4 downpipes but I have assumed that the other two downpipes will be a dry system which drain separately. For added interest, I have also pasted the flow rate through a 90mm stormwater pipe plus additional information. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ 213 l/m. The 100mm DWV pipe has about 46% more volume than a 90mm pvc stormwater pipe. If you double a pipe's internal diameter, you increase the volume x4 but if the same head is used, you increase the flow rate by about x6. In other words, for every 1% increase in volume, the flow rate increases about 1.5%. On another note, to double the flow rate, you need x4 the head which is why low head pressures are still quite efficient. If our 100mm pipe's example had a 0.3 m head, the flow rate would increase to about 435 l/m. See below. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ A tank's head however can be supplemented by plumbing a Low Restriction Inlet off the wet system PLUS there are additional benefits by doing this even when a tank has an adequate head. This improvement to a standard wet system came about through the research, development and success of our 3 in 1 Supadiverta rainwater harvesting system. A low restriction inlet is a valve fitted a minimum 100 mm above the bottom of a tank and connected to by a flexible hose that diverts water from a junction fitted to the wet system. The tank's inlet valve is typically 40mm or 50mm but you will have 65mm fire fighting valves fitted to your tanks anyway. If you don't use a fire fighting fitting, a 40mm valve would provide plenty of flow. The wet system's vertical riser will always operate with the same limited head pressure dictated by the riser's height above the tank whereas a low restriction inlet will operate with a variable head due to the changing height of the water inside the tank. The low restriction inlet will always operates with more head pressure than the vertical riser. The weight of the water in the tank DOES NOT push against the water flowing into the tank...a common misconception! Water reacts to the pressure exerted by a column of water which is 9.82 kPa per metre. An inverted taper is used to reduce the wet system's connecting junction to the required size. They are available in various size reductions. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ OTHER BENEFITS Oxygen rich water will flow into the tank's anaerobic zone, freshening the water. Water won't drop from a height into the tank and cause sediment resuspension. The water in the wet system won't be retained to the level at the top of the vertical riser after rain, it will only be level with the water in the tank. This exposes less water held in pvc pipes above ground to the elements. Easy and not costly to do. FOOTNOTE: Provided you have enough head, you should look at the ICON Leaf and Debris Controller at Bunnings. It is about $38 and is the only one that I recommend from the current bunch of leaf diverters. It has a straight , flat outer screen that isn't wire mesh. Debris adheres to the usual wire mesh used by most others because water cannot get under the debris to wash it off whereas the ICON diverter has a triangular ribbed surface running downwards at a steep angle and a large internal mosquito proof wire mesh that pulls out like a drawer for cleaning. The outer flat filter is also very easily removed for maintenance. Just be aware that 'some' other leaf diverters have flat wire mesh in a recessed section at the bottom plus 'some' also don't fully drain. The ICON unit is bigger which means a bit more head loss, just do the maths to judge whether suitable. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank and pump configuration 9Apr 28, 2019 4:14 pm Great thank you for that SaveH20. Your a good man. Exactly what i have been looking for and i will definetly be putting in the low point inlet also. Have also made some floating suction hoses DIY style as the price of commercial ones was rediculous for what you get. I have purchased the Rain harvesting leaf diverters which were $38 from bunnings, they have the wire wesh then the inner mozzie proof mesh. I cannot find the icon leaf and debris controllers online anywhere. Do you have a link available? Also i would like to put a low point bleed on the charged system but getting to the lowest point is quite difficult if i run 25m of stormwater at 1:100 that is 250mm depth difference from one end to the tank. Do you have any suggestions? Cheers Aaron Re: Water tank and pump configuration 10Apr 28, 2019 6:32 pm aaronmurray1987 Have also made some floating suction hoses DIY style as the price of commercial ones was rediculous for what you get. I agree. They use to cost about $250, a few places copy them now and prices have dropped but you still need to pay at least $170. When I get around to it, I intend making my own and sell them for a more realistic price. Just make sure that the intake on yours is about 200mm under the surface for the best result. aaronmurray1987 I have purchased the Rain harvesting leaf diverters which were $38 from bunnings, they have the wire wesh then the inner mozzie proof mesh. I cannot find the icon leaf and debris controllers online anywhere. Do you have a link available? Bunnings sell them for $38. They are a larger unit because the outer filter is straight. It is made by Icon Plastics at Hallam, Victoria. aaronmurray1987 Also i would like to put a low point bleed on the charged system but getting to the lowest point is quite difficult if i run 25m of stormwater at 1:100 that is 250mm depth difference from one end to the tank. Do you have any suggestions? The smaller stormwater pipe requires a minimum 1:100 slope because it must drain and also flush debris. While the pipe will be considered to be part of the stormwater system IF the overflow connects to the council stormwater system, it is still a wet (charged) system that will remain flooded between rain unless it is drained. Basically, you can have the low point at whichever end is most convenient for you. The water in the wet system will also be much, much cleaner that what is retained in a normal wet system because of the leaf diverters, necessitating far fewer flushes. There are also options as to how you flush the pipe. You are not restricted to a large discharge to a small area. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re your planned 90mm first flush diverters, the standard 90mm first flush diverters are not much cop for the following reasons. 1. 90mm stormwater pipe is the outside diameter, the inside diameter is 86.2mm which has a volume of 5.8 litres per metre. If you know your roof areas, you will see how little rain is actually collected as first flush. 2. 100mm DWV pipe has an internal diameter of 104mm which gives a volume of 8.5 litres per metre. This is 46% more. 3. First flush diverters usually have a hole in a washer that is called a dripper but many run as a constant fine but fast stream, wasting 4-6 litres per hour. For Victoria's rainfall pattern where most rain is drizzle or light interspersed showers over long periods, this can severely deplete yield. Melbourne averages 147 days of precipitation per year over many, many hours. 4. Cleaning usually requires the unscrewing of a bottom cap which can get very wet and messy. You can convert a 90mm stormwater pipe to a 100mm DWV pipe by using a 100mm x 90mm pipe adaptor. https://www.bunnings.com.au/holman-100m ... r_p4770444 Having a 100mm DWV pipe would allow you to use one of our bracketed 100mm support caps that drains through an outlet tube that you can fit a 19mm poly pipe to. This greatly reduces yield loss by eliminating the dripper plus the need for cleaning maintenance. It also allows you to use the flush on the garden. Note that this photo was taken immediately after fitting, the pipe isn't painted and the poly pipe isn't secured to the wall. If you will have sufficient head, then this small improvement will reap significant long term benefits. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank and pump configuration 11Apr 28, 2019 8:22 pm Yep have purchased some food grade suction hose, some floats, strainers and stainless steel wire. Reckon the cost for me to make two is less then $100. This is the one i have bought, it looks very similar to the icon drawing on the icon catalogue website. https://www.bunnings.com.au/rain-harves ... d_p4774053 Great i will use 100mm for the FFD abd grab some of those brackets from your wesite also. Cheers Aaron Re: Water tank and pump configuration 12Apr 28, 2019 9:26 pm aaronmurray1987 Yep have purchased some food grade suction hose, some floats, strainers and stainless steel wire. Reckon the cost for me to make two is less then $100. They were about $240 when they first came out but a lot of places have copied them since but the cheapest is still about $240. When I get time, I'll make them myself and sell them for a more realistic price. aaronmurray1987 This is the one i have bought, it looks very similar to the icon drawing on the icon catalogue website. https://www.bunnings.com.au/rain-harves ... d_p4774053 The problem with the one linked is that solid bird droppings fall through the course outer mesh and wash through the inner mosquito proof mesh. The ICON one is below. It was designed in NZ and the original outer screen wasn't something that I would put my name on. The current outer screen is much better. I have linked an eBay seller below who is charging more than double what the latest version can be bought for in Bunnings. Note the old honeycomb outer filter design! https://www.ebay.com.au/i/252601999957?chn=ps Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ I can't find a photo of the latest screen, only the sketch below. I will take a photo of one tomorrow. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ aaronmurray1987 Great i will use 100mm for the FFD abd grab some of those brackets from your wesite also. They are not available on the website because they are manufactured in a family die as two non matching caps and if I sell them, I am left with an unusable cap. Just contact me and I will send you some. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank and pump configuration 13Apr 28, 2019 9:27 pm Also have you done a DIY on a tank Vac system, another rediculous price for some PVC pipe with holes in it? Re: Water tank and pump configuration 14Apr 28, 2019 9:40 pm The total cross sectional area of the holes (suction velocity) is vital to match the discharge flow rate plus you have to have a vacuum break at the top of the internal overflow pipe so that the tank doesn't syphon dry. I can make something that will purge the outside pipe to create the syphon easy enough. I have no plans to DIY one though, my Supadiverta system eliminates the need for an overflow pipe and very little sediment builds up in the tank, what is there is like talcum powder, just the settled fine suspended particles that passed through. I intend having the website show a simple plan for a similar floor vacuum that simply connects to a very low inlet that people can open once a year or so when the tank is full and rain is expected. It won't be an overflow, just a simple tank cleaning system. It isn't worth my while selling it as a kit, just easier to show some diagrams. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank and pump configuration 15Apr 29, 2019 9:49 am SaveH2O The total cross sectional area of the holes (suction velocity) is vital to match the discharge flow rate plus you have to have a vacuum break at the top of the internal overflow pipe so that the tank doesn't syphon dry. I can make something that will purge the outside pipe to create the syphon easy enough. I have no plans to DIY one though, my Supadiverta system eliminates the need for an overflow pipe and very little sediment builds up in the tank, what is there is like talcum powder, just the settled fine suspended particles that passed through. I intend having the website show a simple plan for a similar floor vacuum that simply connects to a very low inlet that people can open once a year or so when the tank is full and rain is expected. It won't be an overflow, just a simple tank cleaning system. It isn't worth my while selling it as a kit, just easier to show some diagrams. Ok well that probably makes it a bit more difficult. There are cheaper options such as these, but these do not have a pipe accross the tank floor. It will only take it from one spot. http://www.enter-shop.com.au/catalogue/c2/c13/p108 Re: Water tank and pump configuration 16Apr 29, 2019 11:33 am I have a very simple tank cleaner design that is like a vacuum head that you push slowly over the floor and it works well. In time I will have it on the website at a cost including postage that will be cheaper than someone buying the parts and then having to calculate suction angles and velocities. You can fit a simple and inexpensive DIY sediment trap to a non turbulent section of 100mm DWV wet system pipe that will capture the bed load and discharge it manually through a reduced sized pipe. Bed load is settled suspended sediment and heavier debris that clumps in 'colonies' on the bottom of the pipe but when it travels and comes to the sediment trap, it simply falls down the 'hole'. The trap not only dramatically alters the amount of sediment that is common to rain water tanks, it also alters the type of sediment to something that resembles fine talcum powder. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ We now use an invert taper and not a pipe reducer to downsize the pipe because the pipe reducer retains some sediment at the bottom below the outlet. Reducing the pipe size increases the velocity, decreases the flush yield loss and allows the purchase of a smaller and cheaper valve. A 40mm DWV pipe holds roughly 1 1/4 litres per metre. There is usually a low restriction inlet fitted and this is closed when the collected bedload is flushed. A one year summary of a 4 tank system that used this sediment trap is linked below. See post 61. The happy home owner also made the above diagram! Thanks John. viewtopic.php?p=1146540#p1146540 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank and pump configuration 17May 09, 2020 11:57 am Here's how Ive done my rain water system. Its similar in terms of have 2 tank sites and transfer between. Im lucky not to have leaf problem. Northern Adelaide, Format Homes '16-'17 after failed Bondor OB Building Standards; Getting It Right! Thank you for the generous offer. I need to get the plumber out to give me an explanation. As mentioned I haven't seen any rain water discharge from pipes 1& 3. It… 7 11182 If you can calculate the reasonable charged head from let's say 100mm below the gutter to the top of where the vertical riser's horizontal discharge pipe will be, that… 11 17850 Can a plumber put a tap on a rain water tank which is full? Tank is similar to one in photo. Cheers. 0 1871 |