Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! Re: Water Leak issues 21Nov 13, 2016 12:21 pm BE, I would take issue with your post above Saying "perhaps its just bad luck" to Voice_1 is a little condescending when he has clearly been methodical and tenacious in his pursuit of rectifying this matter. I can imagine what he is going through, trying to tilt against windmills. In your first link, you acknowledge that the old lady was intimidated. You know as well as I the most people are also likewise intimated when dealing with tradies or professionals. They are paying top dollar and expect to see expertise be shown for that, and thus defer to that contractor for that very reason. I would suggest voice_1 has not copped it up the jacksee like most people and attempted to stand up for himself, and should be applauded for that. I am glad this thread exists to perhaps serve as a salient reminder to noobs who wish to build as to what they could be in for due to our rotting hopeless systems. I take offence at your second link also, being an Owner Builder myself. Your brief, and poorly cobbled together article there with the inference suggesting an owner built property could be sub standard because of "the blind leading the blind" is vague and misleading, and utter garbage in my opinion. Whilst many OB's do lack management skills, all this means is their build takes longer and costs more than they anticipated. Whilst that regularly happens, it is not factor in the quality of the final build. A structure s still the sum of its parts - each part being supposedly being done correctly by the contractor doing it. You know as well as I do the same regulatory checks and balances apply to an OB as to a full time registered builder, and I thus refute your claim that OB dwellings are a higher risk. "So you have a ship of maybe competent sailors with a Captain Blind." Building is performing a series of steps; its not like a general running a war where strategy is being employed to achieve an unknown outcome. Your Captain Blind reference is ridiculous and misses the mark totally.. Re: Water Leak issues 22Nov 13, 2016 3:04 pm What be is saying has tons of truth , I finished owner building 20 months ago, but wanted to save and get best quality at the same time, I researched big time first, then got a recommended top builder to project manager with heavy involvement and doing lots of the work also, results were that council inspectors said , one of the best structural homes they had seen, if I had not got project manager I would of had Russian roulette with all trades and much more expensive qoutes, all trades knew project manager was very fussy and capable of finishing just about any trade , so all done top jobs. I ended up actually saving more by paying a project manager , was very much like be and ensured I was covered in all areas, I also kept learning and regularly laboured on various stages, bad luck can and does strike , its unfortunately not completely unavoidable. Re: Water Leak issues 23Nov 13, 2016 4:15 pm qebtel you can take any offence you like, I stand by my expertise, I have seen too many bad OB jobs to care to remember. You can also have any opinion you like, it's a free country, but if I was you I would not be advertising it. You say "Whilst many OB's do lack management skills, all this means is their build takes longer and costs more than they anticipated. Whilst that regularly happens, it is not factor in the quality of the final build" I disagree! That exposes your complete lack of understanding what building is about or about anything else. A major component of building is satisfactory level of knowledge and mastery of building science, methods, materials, and management or else we would not have degree and diploma courses in building. Why would we have doctors if nurses can be managed to do the job, Why engineers? Below is what Building Commission required for registration of domestic builders: "Domestic Builder Registration The competencies herewith are specific to the registration category and class of building practitioner, for the purpose of registration with the Building Practitioners Board, under section 170 of the Building Act 1993. Business management Knowledge of: • business planning• cash flow budgets• basic accounting principles• employment law• contractors law• communication practice • organisational skills• conflict resolution• problem solving• human resource management• occupational health and safety • insurances– professional practice– employees– domestic building contract• information technology• quality assurance systems • self-development principles.Ability to:• implement financial strategy• interpret accounting documents• use costing information • prepare income and expenditure projections• manage business taxes• monitor financial performance. Building technology Knowledge of:• Australian Standards• Building Code of Australia (BCA) 2005• local council requirements• general construction technology terms and methods• Victorian Building Commission’s Standards and Tolerances. Building work management (operational) Knowledge of and ability to:• administer a domestic building contract• establish a building site• apply scheduling methods• apply stock control principles• apply quality control to building works. Knowledge of:• principles and law of contract• building contracts and contract documents• contract administration• dispute resolution• insurances• tendering and estimating• quality concepts• time management. Building work management (supervision) Knowledge of:• insurance claims• tender preparation and documentation, estimating and preparation of a bill of quantities • occupational health and safety issues at the worksite and the workplace• hazard assessment and control• site induction program • site responsibilities of various personnel at a worksite• occupational health and safety principles and practices• roles of site managers and supervisors• establishment and ongoing site maintenance • scheduling• communication• purchasing and record flow. Legislation Knowledge of:• Building Act 1993• Building (Interim) Regulations 2005• Domestic Building Contracts Act 1995• Domestic Building Contracts and Tribunal (General) Regulations 1996 OB can do all that without education really? There are many competent OB's that have above and I have seen many good builds. I have also seen many good builds that are just dumb luck. Majority are blind captains. If you are buying OB I wish you luck. Regardless of anything above, building is essentially on site production system. How is unqualified OB going to to review, validate correct and approve with no technical knowledge (how is he going to read and understand plans?) The relevance here is that Voice_1's job was OB and a disaster. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Water Leak issues 24Nov 13, 2016 6:20 pm Answers as follows: 1. Yes and they where also referred by several others 2. Yes, I asked 2 legal firms if I was able to claim based on a duty of care, I was advised of the difficulty in obtaining a successful claim and it would more than likely go to court for determination and the approximate cost would be around $40k with no guarantee of wining even though the evidence was there. I had a pre purchase inspection in 2005 and had then come back in 2009.. When I presented the report to my conveyancer/solicitor (I note that no major defective items where discovered) I was a fused that the sale contract ensured I was covered in the event that something more serious would occur. 3. Yes, hence the reason why the PI claim would be difficult. I still remember having them come into the house and ask me what where my areas of concern. My response was that I was not a builder and had no idea what I was meant to look for. Apart from some minor cosmetic issues I saw what appears to be a well built town house in a good area at a reasonable price. most consumers don't even do a pre purchase inspection as most don't have the money to pay for it because they just bought a house and their life savings go into it if the 15 friends that have purchased homes over the years it was only 1 other and myself that had even bother to have an inspection done. I also note that the engineering drawing have never been submitted to the council and could not be supplied 4. My contract of sale would not have allowed me to stop settlement. 5. Yes, my stairs, - remained u identified until a carpenter friend advised me in 2012!!! The pre but chase inspector and even the BA inspector never identified the varying riser and goings let one the goings did not meet the minimum standard. Also, unprotected gas meter in driveway no overflow cut into rain heads and many more items. It was not until 2013-2014 where I paid over $15k for specialist reports from plumbers, manufacturers, leak detection, mould report and structural engineer that the following was discovered: 1. Incorrect site classification based on soil report 2. No compliance certificate for the connection of underground sewerage 3. ** plumbing compliance certificate for storm water 4 mandatory documentation not supplied to local council from surveyor and a hundred other things. How many consumers have the time or finances to even get to step one which is basically having an expert go through their home and advise them of areas that are fault or cause for concern. If I have to spend $20k on reports each time I bought a house I would be inclined not to buy one. Isn't the logic around the australia dream flawed?? By your dream but make sure you have it checked or it will be your nightmare!! There's a marketing slogan if ever I've heard one. As consumers we are of the firm belief that stories such as mine just don't happen. Factor in that a single white female purchased her first house, she asked questions, rummaged for money just to have a little security in that choice... Then...... It's like the builders warranty insurance, 64000 claims in victoria recorded over the 2010-2011 year, only 3 where approved at a grand total of just over $116k!!! I have many insurance stories where the poor consumer is made to feel lucky getting paid out $5k but then footing a bill for $100k because that didn't see what was happening behind the wall! I tried making 7 PI claims against individuals that had a duty of care apart from arguing for 3 months with various companies, inspectors, assessor a, one by one each claim was denied and advise to pursue the matter would require legal proceedings... Not meaning to be cynical here but how many people go you know have the time to do all that and still try and maintain a career or even care for family! Re: Water Leak issues 25Nov 13, 2016 8:25 pm Hi Voice_1 qebtel thinks I was condescending when I said you had bad luck but then look at this: 1 Buying from OB(unregistered builder) 2 Inadequate 137b report 3 Inadequate soil report and engineering design 4 Negligent building surveyor 5 Negligent plumber 6 Perhaps inadequate pre purchase report 7 Wrong advice from VCAT re timing of claims 8 Corrupt building commission Usually just one of the above could give you a splitting headache if all of the above is not bad luck then I don't know what bad luck is. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Water Leak issues 26Nov 23, 2016 10:54 pm You have no argument from me here on that view! Never believed in bad luck until this experience. But as the saying goes, from bad comes good and my only hope is to help others become more aware of potential issues and challenges that can arise. If even one person does not suffer my experience then it will be worth it. I wake up every morning and work on my house until I can no longer stand or see and have been doing so for the last 3 years. My legal battle consumed any savings and now grateful that family have been assisting. The first year I spent trying to figure out where all the water was coming from and preparing all the necessary legal documentation. It has only been in the last few months I have been able to afford additional people to make compliant and fix all the defective and non compliant items. No waterproofing in either bathroom meant ripping them out including replacing rotted wood let alone the work required on my balcony. The house has basically been rebuilt from the inside. I'm fortunate in a way that I have no children as my house has been more of a construction zone than a home for some time now. The sad part is that the owner builder is now a developer and I am aware of 3 projects he has in the area. It makes me sick thinking about the amount of times he came back to "fix" things which always ended up in an argument as he would always deny that he had any level of responsibility. When asked for documents or the names of tradespeople that may have done certain work there was always an excuse such as he threw out the paperwork, couldn't remember or the company went bust! Still trying to come to terms with the plumbing commission accepting a roof plumbing compliance certificate issued in 2011 for works completed in 2004!! How the hell is that acceptable. They managed to get two of the original plumbers here to fix non compliant areas but when I asked for a new compliance certificate they stated that it wasn't required as the works where under $750.....my response was that I've never in my life been able to get a plumber to do 2 days of work for less than $750 and asked for the scope of works with the cost estimation. My request (multiple) was ignored of course Re: Water Leak issues 27Nov 24, 2016 7:45 pm You are right, roof plumber charge around $85/hr then you have to add materials so it does not take much to get to $750. Just to touch on another matter in your complaint. Pre purchase reports have to be done before contract gets unconditional to give you opportunity to back out if there are significant issues. If you bought of the plan and your contract is past cooling off then it is no longer a pre purchase report because you are already in unconditional territiry. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Water Leak issues 28Jan 05, 2017 11:12 pm The house was complete, I purchased it directly from the owner builder. My conveyancer stated that I did not even need to undertake a prepurchase inspection as the 13b inspection report would cover in the event that any issue arose as it listed nil defects and nil works pending. That surveyor had already lost his license due to other law suits. Re: Water Leak issues 29Jan 06, 2017 1:31 am Voice_1 The house was complete, I purchased it directly from the owner builder. My conveyancer stated that I did not even need to undertake a prepurchase inspection as the 13b inspection report would cover in the event that any issue arose as it listed nil defects and nil works pending. That surveyor had already lost his license due to other law suits. That clarifies things a bit. You purchased OB dwelling, likely built by someone who is not a builder and consequently without effective technical supervision. You have relied on statutory mandatory inspections (as you should) but that was compromised by incompetent building surveyor. You have relied on 137B report (as you ought to) but that did not pick up all the issues). Who paid for 137B report? Not you. So it is not your independent inspection for your benefit. Full Stop. You relied on erroneous advice from conveyancer, that independent inspection is not required. As you can see the missing ingredients are: lack of skill and care by the builder. Lack of effective independent inspection and correction during build. Bottom line? NEVER BUY OB BUILT DWELLING (you take a risk it was built by someone with no knowledge of building and you loose much of the protection under building contract. If you do you have rocks in your head. Essentially it is like eating a complex dish prepared by someone who is not a cook. The risk of poor taste? The risk of food poisoning? You work it out. But if you have to, then get best inspection money can buy even then there is a risk of defects covered up (because there were no independent stage inspections during build) Obviously if we could pick up all defects at final inspection then there would be no need for stage inspections. AS CONSUMER YOU ARE NOT PROTECTED BY LEGISLATION BECAUSE IT IS INADEQUATE AND BECAUSE IT IS NOT ENFORCED YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. You can either grow old waiting for government to protect you or get your own independent inspection. I know that does not help your current situation but may prevent someone else getting into the same situation. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Water Leak issues 30Jan 10, 2017 5:48 pm \"building_expert qebtel you can take any offence you like, I stand by my expertise, I have seen too many bad OB jobs to care to remember. And the same could be said for volume builder homes too if you were going to be balanced. \"building_expert You say "Whilst many OB's do lack management skills, all this means is their build takes longer and costs more than they anticipated. Whilst that regularly happens, it is not factor in the quality of the final build" I disagree!That exposes your complete lack of understanding what building is about or about anything else. Complete lack of understanding? I have have completed two OB's myself, and they were good builds and I have no trades quals. So sorry, you were dead wrong there. \"building_expert A major component of building is satisfactory level of knowledge and mastery of building science, methods, materials, and management or else we would not have degree and diploma courses in building. You dont need a lot of knowleddge to do a removal home, or a kit home. So wrong again there Im afraid. \"building_expert Below is what Building Commission required for registration of domestic builders: "Domestic Builder Registration The competencies herewith are specific to the registration category and class of building practitioner, for the purpose of registration with the Building Practitioners Board, under section 170 of the Building Act 1993. Business management - Knowledge of: • business planning• cash flow budgets• basic accounting principles• employment law• contractors law• communication practice • organisational skills• conflict resolution• problem solving• human resource management• occupational health and safety • insurances– professional practice– employees– domestic building contract• information technology• quality assurance systems • self-development principles.Ability to:• implement financial strategy• interpret accounting documents• use costing information • prepare income and expenditure projections• manage business taxes• monitor financial performance. Building technology Knowledge of:• Australian Standards• Building Code of Australia (BCA) 2005• local council requirements• general construction technology terms and methods• Victorian Building Commission’s Standards and Tolerances. Building work management (operational) Knowledge of and ability to:• administer a domestic building contract• establish a building site• apply scheduling methods• apply stock control principles• apply quality control to building works. Knowledge of:• principles and law of contract• building contracts and contract documents• contract administration• dispute resolution• insurances• tendering and estimating• quality concepts• time management. Building work management (supervision) Knowledge of:• insurance claims• tender preparation and documentation, estimating and preparation of a bill of quantities • occupational health and safety issues at the worksite and the workplace• hazard assessment and control• site induction program • site responsibilities of various personnel at a worksite• occupational health and safety principles and practices• roles of site managers and supervisors• establishment and ongoing site maintenance • scheduling• communication• purchasing and record flow. Legislation Knowledge of:• Building Act 1993• Building (Interim) Regulations 2005• Domestic Building Contracts Act 1995• Domestic Building Contracts and Tribunal (General) Regulations 1996 Mostly utterly irrelevant nonsense, you're trying to tell us conflict resolution , scheduling methods, safety principles ,etc have everything to do with a build quality? LOL utter rubbish, thats mostly all fluff that you of course would like to hold up and assume to be a a strict requirement because you have dutifully jumped through the hoops to get your qualification, and of course you make it out to be some holy grail that only those who have done a long course of indenture and paid their professional dues are entitled to. Well no, its musch like any course nowdays, about 1/6th of it is relevant, the other content is msotly useless to pad out the course so that the training industry can make money out of the whole process. University degreees are the same. This country will never be productive with all this rot going on. Its endemic now across the board, I mean now you need to do a course to be a builder labourer....lololol one of the dumbest jobs out there. I did fine when I was 16. \"building_expert OB can do all that without education really? the point is they can produce a good build without all that. So the answer is - yes. \"building_expert There are many competent OB's that have above and I have seen many good builds. I have also seen many good builds that are just dumb luck. And again, you've just admitted no great skill is required. Congratulations \"building_expert Majority are blind captains. If you are buying OB I wish you luck. And then not much different to many tradies whom you could also call blind captains. You have been reading these forum as long as I have and you know exactly what I am talking about, sub standard work is rife in the trade and a lot of the practitioners dont even know they are doing it wrong, , and you have complained about it more than anyone here. building_expert Regardless of anything above, building is essentially on site production system. How is unqualified OB going to to review, validate correct and approve with no technical knowledge (how is he going to read and understand plans?) Why should he if he is employing a carpenter to do the building? Those trades are registered and supposed to be indentured to the relevant standard. If you are talking about a OB swinging his own hammer, then sure what you say applies, but then he should not be doing that unless he knows what he is doing, but irrespective, the various inspections should be picking up faulty work along the way, that is their inherent purpose. building_expert The relevance here is that Voice_1's job was OB and a disaster. No, the relevance was that there was waterproofing issues, and they passed inspection. The OB himself, or the tradie he emplyed to do it could have been as sh0ddy as hell, , but the regulatory framework in place to do checks and balances at the inspection stages failed, and according to you, that is an OB problem. Wrong, its a regulatory problem Re: Water Leak issues 31Jan 10, 2017 6:00 pm building-expert Hi Voice_1 qebtel thinks I was condescending when I said you had bad luck but then look at this: 1 Buying from OB(unregistered builder) 2 Inadequate 137b report 3 Inadequate soil report and engineering design 4 Negligent building surveyor 5 Negligent plumber 6 Perhaps inadequate pre purchase report 7 Wrong advice from VCAT re timing of claims 8 Corrupt building commission Usually just one of the above could give you a splitting headache if all of the above is not bad luck then I don't know what bad luck is. 1. As I have already told you, the same checks and balances apply whether OB or registered builder, so it is irrelevant. 2. Not an OB fault. 3. Not an OB fault. 4. Not an OB fault. 5. Not an OB fault. 6. Not an OB fault. 7. Not an OB fault. 8. Not an OB fault. The fact remains that had all the people , indentured and approved, by Australia's first world regulatory system done their job properly, none of this would have happened. But according to you, its an OB problem because the OB doesnt have the hindsight of an experienced build manager who sees this palaver day in and day out. The point is he shouldnt need that hindsight, refer previous sentence. The fact is Voice_1's way of going about it all was a disaster. Spending 190K on a balcony leak, a bathroom that needed re doing, and leaking sub slab pipes? Something very wrong there. It was an existing house and so its condition was not appraised properly at purchase time. You are saying because it was OB he should have gotten an very expensive inspection regime happening by default, but as I said before, some of the garbage being produced by registered builders would warrant the same level of caution a a lot of the time.. If you make sure all taps inside and out are turned off, what does the water meter show if you leave it for a while. 2 21119 Hi all, I am hoping someone has some ideas as to what is causing my bathroom leak. The leaking appears to mainly happen when we turn the sink basins on. It takes a while… 0 5727 DIY, Home Maintenance & Repair Are you doing this with a building permit? Conversion of a non habitable room into a habitable room requires building permit. 3 18868 |