Browse Forums Building A New House Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 4Nov 20, 2017 6:41 pm 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 5Nov 21, 2017 7:39 am I'm currently 'fighting' this battle too. I'm dealing with Metricon and they're 'forcing' their 'preferred' building surveyor via making it cost time/money extra if you choose anyone by the company that'll be looking out for Metricon more than the buyer. Due to them knowing they have to keep Metricon happy and push things through to retain the volume builder contract. I've posted about this in the Metricon thread, but it's huge thread so I'll repeat the point I tried it make in there rum_home Yeah, and this is where the ambiguity is with the legislation and the lack of knowledge being shared from Metricon doesn't help. A passage from the VBA website on the Appointment a building surveyor: "They carry out inspections – or have a building inspector carry out inspections on their behalf – to sign off each mandatory notification stage of construction." A registered building surveyor is authorised to:
But it seems that independent building surveyor doesn't actually have to perform those tasks to any satisfaction of the client they are supposedly working for. So a big rort of the whole "independent building surveyor" system is allowed, so that the surveyors get their money and the inspectors get their money too. So buyers get to pay two people to do the same job, where the legislation was suppose to give more power to the buyer and not get done over by less scrupulous builders. But now in fact get to pay twice, once in the building cost of a major builder and second if you want to check the checker. In the conversations with Metricon, they said they'll pay for and communicate directly with their preferred surveyor. But if I do not go through them, even if I choose the same company, they'll not communicate directly with them or pay for them. It's also not a cost that if you go outside their preferred method, that they will credit you with. It's a hidden cost, with no buyer 'value'. It seems your build also uses this tactic to 'force' you to use their more friendly 'independent' company. I had to fight to get in writing that if I choose their preferred independent inspector, that I actually get the reports. As default they only send to the builder, now if that is not independent I don't even know. I'm not even allowed to communicate directly with them. Good luck, I feel it's a whole rort! Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 6Nov 21, 2017 9:13 am rum_home I'm currently 'fighting' this battle too. I'm dealing with Metricon and they're 'forcing' their 'preferred' building surveyor via making it cost time/money extra if you choose anyone by the company that'll be looking out for Metricon more than the buyer. Due to them knowing they have to keep Metricon happy and push things through to retain the volume builder contract. I've posted about this in the Metricon thread, but it's huge thread so I'll repeat the point I tried it make in there rum_home Yeah, and this is where the ambiguity is with the legislation and the lack of knowledge being shared from Metricon doesn't help. A passage from the VBA website on the Appointment a building surveyor: "They carry out inspections – or have a building inspector carry out inspections on their behalf – to sign off each mandatory notification stage of construction." A registered building surveyor is authorised to:
But it seems that independent building surveyor doesn't actually have to perform those tasks to any satisfaction of the client they are supposedly working for. So a big rort of the whole "independent building surveyor" system is allowed, so that the surveyors get their money and the inspectors get their money too. So buyers get to pay two people to do the same job, where the legislation was suppose to give more power to the buyer and not get done over by less scrupulous builders. But now in fact get to pay twice, once in the building cost of a major builder and second if you want to check the checker. In the conversations with Metricon, they said they'll pay for and communicate directly with their preferred surveyor. But if I do not go through them, even if I choose the same company, they'll not communicate directly with them or pay for them. It's also not a cost that if you go outside their preferred method, that they will credit you with. It's a hidden cost, with no buyer 'value'. It seems your build also uses this tactic to 'force' you to use their more friendly 'independent' company. I had to fight to get in writing that if I choose their preferred independent inspector, that I actually get the reports. As default they only send to the builder, now if that is not independent I don't even know. I'm not even allowed to communicate directly with them. Good luck, I feel it's a whole rort! I asked for a copy of these reports a number of time but they never sent them to me. I’ve heard of others that pushed to see these reports and it was a one page that said the build passed the inspection and that was it. No extra details. - View my blog at www.waldorfgrangebuild.wordpress.com Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 7Nov 21, 2017 10:18 am Those building inspection reports are worthless as they turn a blind eye to non compliance here's what we do in WA. They will tick everything that is correct and ignore major structural items to appease the builder. these are my recommendations 1. Dont tell the builder who you are hiring , if you so they will make you sign all sorts of forms waivers & disclaimers 2. Hire your own structural engineer as work is about to begin to check, drawings/details/specifications , footing/slab, Framework, Brickwork, Roof framing stages. 3.Builders aren't bluffed by Building surveyors or inspectors, they will just tell them it's an alternate solution while it's not? 4.Chances are some work will be non compliant in which case only an engineer will be able to verify the work as equivalent or better than what is required in the codes 5.In 4 above Let your own engineer determine whether it is 6.If the builder fails to rectify the problem he will advise you to lodge a complaint directly with the Building commission, Fair trading or put you in contact with lawyers it then becomes a civil matter 7. 8. 9. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 8Nov 22, 2017 12:15 pm SaveH2O In Victoria, the builder is no longer allowed to appoint their own surveyor, there is a long history of reasons why this finally came about. In Victoria, building consultants do not need any qualifications, you need to vet them thoroughly. If you find a good one, ask for a recommendation re a surveyor. So many things that still get passed as compliant or to plan when they are not...slab height, site drainage, stormwater drainage, etc etc etc. Sure mate, Thank you for the reply, I will be asking the suggestion from my inspector also once i identify one. Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 9Nov 22, 2017 12:18 pm rum_home I'm currently 'fighting' this battle too. I'm dealing with Metricon and they're 'forcing' their 'preferred' building surveyor via making it cost time/money extra if you choose anyone by the company that'll be looking out for Metricon more than the buyer. Due to them knowing they have to keep Metricon happy and push things through to retain the volume builder contract. I've posted about this in the Metricon thread, but it's huge thread so I'll repeat the point I tried it make in there rum_home Yeah, and this is where the ambiguity is with the legislation and the lack of knowledge being shared from Metricon doesn't help. A passage from the VBA website on the Appointment a building surveyor: "They carry out inspections – or have a building inspector carry out inspections on their behalf – to sign off each mandatory notification stage of construction." A registered building surveyor is authorised to:
But it seems that independent building surveyor doesn't actually have to perform those tasks to any satisfaction of the client they are supposedly working for. So a big rort of the whole "independent building surveyor" system is allowed, so that the surveyors get their money and the inspectors get their money too. So buyers get to pay two people to do the same job, where the legislation was suppose to give more power to the buyer and not get done over by less scrupulous builders. But now in fact get to pay twice, once in the building cost of a major builder and second if you want to check the checker. In the conversations with Metricon, they said they'll pay for and communicate directly with their preferred surveyor. But if I do not go through them, even if I choose the same company, they'll not communicate directly with them or pay for them. It's also not a cost that if you go outside their preferred method, that they will credit you with. It's a hidden cost, with no buyer 'value'. It seems your build also uses this tactic to 'force' you to use their more friendly 'independent' company. I had to fight to get in writing that if I choose their preferred independent inspector, that I actually get the reports. As default they only send to the builder, now if that is not independent I don't even know. I'm not even allowed to communicate directly with them. Good luck, I feel it's a whole rort! Yeah those extra communication responsibility with surveyor and potential delay in the building process is the reason most people go with their preferred surveyor i think. I will also try to get the report sent to me if i go with their preferred one. cheers mate. Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 10Nov 22, 2017 12:41 pm StructuralBIMGuy Those building inspection reports are worthless as they turn a blind eye to non compliance here's what we do in WA. They will tick everything that is correct and ignore major structural items to appease the builder. these are my recommendations 1. Dont tell the builder who you are hiring , if you so they will make you sign all sorts of forms waivers & disclaimers 2. Hire your own structural engineer as work is about to begin to check, drawings/details/specifications , footing/slab, Framework, Brickwork, Roof framing stages. 3.Builders aren't bluffed by Building surveyors or inspectors, they will just tell them it's an alternate solution while it's not? 4.Chances are some work will be non compliant in which case only an engineer will be able to verify the work as equivalent or better than what is required in the codes 5.In 4 above Let your own engineer determine whether it is 6.If the builder fails to rectify the problem he will advise you to lodge a complaint directly with the Building commission, Fair trading or put you in contact with lawyers it then becomes a civil matter 7. 8. 9. @StructuralBIMGuy Thank you for your suggestions Mate. It helps a lot. I will think of this option of hiring own structural engineer instead of Surveyor , just looking for your suggestion on few more items. 1. Is there any qualifications or things that i need to check about the [b]structural engineer before i appoint them ? I am completely new to this and sorry if its a dumb question. [/b] 2. Do i have to inform the builder before contract sign if i am appointing my own engineer? If i don't inform them, is there any way they can legally deny my request to access any documents that an engineer requires to assess the construction ? I am not sure whether an engineer will need access to the construction site or he just requires the documents to assess. 3. Do you think having my own structural engineer and inspector will minimize the construction problems by o lot? Is there anything else that i can do before the construction/contract sign ? [b]I have already asked almost all the builders whether its possible NOT to use waffle slab but the answer was 'NO' everywhere.[/b] [b]Cheers.[/b] Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 11Nov 23, 2017 9:47 am 1. Engineers are licensed to deal with all aspects of structural design.. ( Engineers Australia, National Engineer Register) Building Surveyors are licensed to deal with the NCC and compliance only Building Inspectors/Consultants are not licensed at all ( eg in WA) 2. Builders can't deny a professional engineer access to your building site. Steps a. Hire a local engineer, minimise travel time costs b. Send him the plans beforehand c. Ask them to inspect the structural elements with time to spare, in order to avoid costly on site delays , pumps, crane hire, concrete pour. etc d. Your engineer will send the builder a letter/email the work will either be Compliant (Fit for purpose) , Non Compliant (Not fit for purpose and will recommend fixes/remedies). e.If the builder chooses to ignore your engineer, there are a number of actions you can take, Building Commission, Fair trading, Civil Courts,etc. Basically it is a waiting Game ..but your are well covered 3. Should things go wrong in the future, ask for extended structural warranty periods or worse case structural elements have to be replaced/rectified .There are choices for slabs and upgrades you just need to know the cost differentials represent value for money and that the work was done properly. hth Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 12Nov 23, 2017 2:17 pm Perhaps I should point out that BIMboy is living under a rock in WA and "surprise surprise " has no idea how things are done in Victoria. Firstly you cannot appoint an engineer for building permit approval, the legislation requires Building Surveyor. It is the building surveyor that will detemine whether builder's plans are compliant and issue building permit. This then follows with mandatory inspections during construction. The legislated inspections are before footings are poured, frame inspection and a final for the occupancy permit. BS will usually not do the inspections but will hire a registered building inspector. Secondly you can appoint your private inspector for independent stage inspection and who you get is your choice. It could be an engineer or experienced building consultant or anyone else you choose. You cannot appoint your own building inspector and not tell the builder because whilst the job is in progress builder has the exclusive licence over your land and control of the site. It is the builder who is responsible for site security and safety and has the right to know who will visit and when. The legislation was passed to stop builder's appointing BS to avoid conflict of interest(BS undully influenced byt the builder) but unfortunately it appears that large builders have found a way around it. Under standard domestic building contract independent inspectors and or engineers are not recognised as parties to the contract and can be ignored by the builder. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 13Nov 23, 2017 2:55 pm StructuralBIMGuy 1. Engineers are licensed to deal with all aspects of structural design.. ( Engineers Australia, National Engineer Register) Building Surveyors are licensed to deal with the NCC and compliance only Building Inspectors/Consultants are not licensed at all ( eg in WA) 2. Builders can't deny a professional engineer access to your building site. Steps a. Hire a local engineer, minimise travel time costs b. Send him the plans beforehand c. Ask them to inspect the structural elements with time to spare, in order to avoid costly on site delays , pumps, crane hire, concrete pour. etc d. Your engineer will send the builder a letter/email the work will either be Compliant (Fit for purpose) , Non Compliant (Not fit for purpose and will recommend fixes/remedies). e.If the builder chooses to ignore your engineer, there are a number of actions you can take, Building Commission, Fair trading, Civil Courts,etc. Basically it is a waiting Game ..but your are well covered 3. Should things go wrong in the future, ask for extended structural warranty periods or worse case structural elements have to be replaced/rectified .There are choices for slabs and upgrades you just need to know the cost differentials represent value for money and that the work was done properly. hth Thank you Mate for your suggestions and time, Appreciate it. Simonds gives only 7 year structural guarantee which is little bit worrying, I will ask if they can extend it. Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 14Nov 23, 2017 3:04 pm building-expert Perhaps I should point out that BIMboy is living under a rock in WA and "surprise surprise " has no idea how things are done in Victoria. Firstly you cannot appoint an engineer for building permit approval, the legislation requires Building Surveyor. It is the building surveyor that will detemine whether builder's plans are compliant and issue building permit. This then follows with mandatory inspections during construction. The legislated inspections are before footings are poured, frame inspection and a final for the occupancy permit. BS will usually not do the inspections but will hire a registered building inspector. Secondly you can appoint your private inspector for independent stage inspection and who you get is your choice. It could be an engineer or experienced building consultant or anyone else you choose. You cannot appoint your own building inspector and not tell the builder because whilst the job is in progress builder has the exclusive licence over your land and control of the site. It is the builder who is responsible for site security and safety and has the right to know who will visit and when. The legislation was passed to stop builder's appointing BS to avoid conflict of interest(BS undully influenced byt the builder) but unfortunately it appears that large builders have found a way around it. Under standard domestic building contract independent inspectors and or engineers are not recognised as parties to the contract and can be ignored by the builder. Thank you @building-expert for replying, its really good to see experts replying to the thread to help people. When you say large builders have found a way around about having our own BS, does that mean its not worth having our own surveyor ? (Builders will still ignore ?) . I have had a chat with one of the Surveyors firm and they told they cannot comply to the timelines suggested by the Simonds, they told they will take as much as time need to review properly before giving the approvals and stuffs. Is there any way we can include our own Inspectors/Engineers as parties before contract sign to act on our behalf? Will the big builders allow for that? I now understand i can appoint either Engineer or Consultant to do the inspections, but i am not sure whether is there any advantage in having consultant over engineer and vice versa. Cheers. Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 15Nov 23, 2017 8:04 pm I am not talking about building permit approvals mate Building surveyors supposedly deal with that, but that may not be what gets built. (In fact anyone can check the codes for deem to comply or compliance BTW the NCC are free) It's what gets built on site that doesn't necessarily meets the required NCC codes, so when you question the builder, What does the builder do....LOL refers it to his Engineer as an alternate method/Solution who pulls rank over the Building Experts/Consultants. hth Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 16Nov 23, 2017 8:30 pm vedhabala Thank you Mate for your suggestions and time, Appreciate it. Simonds gives only 7 year structural guarantee which is little bit worrying, I will ask if they can extend it. 6 to 7 years structural warranties that is what they all offer and that is why it is imperative to have an engineer check your biggest ever investment. It can only be extended if the engineer provides time based calculation and proofs that warrant an extension Here's an example, A Builders did not follow the correct detailed drawings with reference to slip form (2x PGI) placement for a suspended slab over brickwork.The long term effect will be brick cracking and it can be proven by calculations/simulations. The builder has offered a 25 year guarantee. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 17Nov 24, 2017 6:39 am In Victoria, builder's warranty is 10 years so if the house has been up for 10 years how likely is ist it will fail after that? So the 25 -50 year structural warranty is probably an empty promise because if the house does fail it will more than likely be due to maintenance neglect, unauthorized alterations, termites (read maintenance neglect), geological fault or occupant abuse. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 18Nov 24, 2017 8:51 am building-expert In Victoria, builder's warranty is 10 years so if the house has been up for 10 years how likely is ist it will fail after that? So the 25 -50 year structural warranty is probably an empty promise because if the house does fail it will more than likely be due to maintenance neglect, unauthorized alterations, termites (read maintenance neglect), geological fault or occupant abuse. This just goes to show you know very little about Structural Design ie. Codes AS3600 Concrete & AS3700 Masonry ie concrete shrinkage, creep and crack control on unreinforced supporting masonry walls and long term effects.The builder has admitted fault and at a guess he has built a lot more homes using the same incorrect details. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ So how many battlers and punters are going to be told " Badluck, your brick cracking beneath your suspended slab is standard... and it's not covered after 6 years ?" OT I can't stipulate enough how important it is to have your house properly structurally inspected by your own structural engineer, he will take photos, data, measurements, offer ups proofs and solutions. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 19Nov 24, 2017 9:28 am building-expert The legislation was passed to stop builder's appointing BS to avoid conflict of interest(BS unduly influenced by the builder) but unfortunately it appears that large builders have found a way around it. Yeah, this is the issue I'm running into and the OP. It has to be a known issue at the VBA level, what would it take to get this type of activity looked into? I know in my dealings that CSC is very mindful of the terminology that he using regarding the appointment of the Building Surveyor and will always call over replying in email so there is no record. Re: Independent Building Surveyor or Builder's Surveyor 20Nov 24, 2017 10:07 am Unified national regulations will eventually put qualified Trusted Engineers in control of critical structural inspections as it should be in the meantime be prepared always ask questions, take photos, insist on data and proofs on non compliance structural matters.. goodluck especially you Victorians ... Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs It is true that a builder can ignore your independent inspection report as it is not part of the contractual arrangement but that is stupid because he cannot avoid fixing… 9 47327 That is a really good attitude Akin to you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I do enjoy watching that tik tok inspector from Victoria but he does go a little… 12 82616 |