Saratoga Estate - Point Cook

QuarumNibblet · Feb 06, 2014 8:34 am

Just taken the plunge into building my first home and about to pay the deposit on a plot of land, wondered if there was anyone else out there building in the Saratoga Estate?

uk3777 · Feb 28, 2014 3:00 pm

Hi QuarumNibblet,

We got a lot at Saratoga few weeks back, we got the one in the new release (Aria). Which release did you go for?

QuarumNibblet · Mar 11, 2014 1:20 pm

uk3777

Hi QuarumNibblet,

We got a lot at Saratoga few weeks back, we got the one in the new release (Aria). Which release did you go for?

Oh, completely missed this - I was in the Aria release as well. Hello Neighbour

MelbourneMate · May 18, 2014 7:02 am

We had bought in the 1st release - Allumbra release almost 18 months ago. Just sold ours for a 32k loss and moved on. Glad to have gotten out of Point Cook just in time.

QuarumNibblet · May 19, 2014 1:23 pm

MelbourneMate

We had bought in the 1st release - Allumbra release almost 18 months ago. Just sold ours for a 32k loss and moved on. Glad to have gotten out of Point Cook just in time.

Just in time? Is something going to happen to Point Cook?

MelbourneMate · May 27, 2014 6:41 am

Yes - static or even negative home values.

We erred in our research and were carried away emotionally with wanting to build a massive house (we signed on with Porter Davis to build a Waldorf - luckily only paid initial deposit but did not sign the final contract. But after we purchased the block - 3 people we know sold their houses for significant losses between 45k-110k.

Thats when we decided to do the research and realised that in recent sales (last 3 years) home owners were lucky to even break even (some did make marginal profits - keyword "marginal"), in addition there are 800 properties for rent, an abundant over-supply of land blocks (close to 2000) and the approval of the East Werribee Precinct (bang next to Saratoga Estate) - was when the decision was a no-brainer. We were prepared to take a loss of 32k and get out of PC rather than build and in 5-10 years be worse off after building.

Dont get me wrong - we love the area and think Point Cook is an awesome suburb (we live in Albert Park by the way) but from a financial perspective do not expect equity gain.

A simple advice - do NOT spend a fortune on building your house. Keep it very simple, as it might be easier to sell in the future.

Good luck:)

EmyN · May 27, 2014 7:43 am

MelbourneMate I think your advice is right for people looking for an investment property but not so much for people looking for a long term family home. There are many areas in Australia at the moment experiencing static or negative growth, and that's not always the most important factor in choosing whether to build or not. For example, we know that our house won't improve in value very much, we're too far from the city, but it's where we want to live.

I surprised you walked away from building in what you say is an awesome suburb and you love the area, considering you already faced a 32k loss to sell the land I would have thought being in that deep anyway you may as well commit to building a house. We certainly would have lost that much if we tried to sell our land within an year or two of buying it, most new land release areas are similar. Anyway, just my two cents for people who might be really put off by your thoughts, wanted to present an alternative view.

Ponzu · May 27, 2014 11:20 am

EmyN, a loss of 32k and being able to walk away is far better than being stuck with a 500-600k mortgage you cant get out of if you dont plan on staying out the life of the mortgage (which for most people is anywhere between 10-30 years). At 10 years, if the value of the home is not worth the mortgage plus interest paid plus profit due to static or negative values, and you cant sell or rent it for a decent price, the loss begins to look much better at 32k, invetsment or not. 32k is a faqir whack of cash and for most first home owners they would gawk at that, but sometimes you have to pay for the decisions you make. In this instance through it appears the owner has weighd up the pros and cosn, and whichever way you look at it would have made a loss. The only metric here to pay attention to is how much of a loss.

Other factors to considder about PC is that the soil in alomost all of PC is suboptimal with mainly P class sites. Have you seen all the lamp posts that are wonky or lobsided throughout PC? imagine this happening to your house. Now imaginging this happening to a 600k mortgaged house (slab heave). You cant sell it without disclosing the defect (and would be picked up by any inspector worth their salt anyway). While this is the extreeme end of scenarios, its also the risk that you take when buildinging in PC.

The suboptimal sites are also a contributing factor to home values out that way. As horror stories emerge, new buyers are less likley to considder teh risk acceptible.

Point cook is lovley, dont get me wrong, i really like the feel of teh area. I just dont see it being a good risk to take when there are other options with better potential.

So even if you want to live there with your family and thats all taht matters, the risk remains. So all you can hope for is that your enot one of the poor bugegrs out there thats locked into a debt that you have mortgaged up to your eyebals for with no exit options.

Liliana · May 27, 2014 11:55 am

MelbourneMate

the approval of the East Werribee Precinct (bang next to Saratoga Estate) - was when the decision was a no-brainer.

Hi MelbourneMate,

This is an interesting discussion. What put you off about the East Werribee Precinct? I didn't even notice this being announced! For others who aren't aware see link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Vxwjli0O8

and Ponzu - I'm surprised by what you are saying about Point Cook. We lived there for 8 years from 2004 to 2012 near the Sanctuary Lakes shopping centre and I didn't notice a lot of soil movement around the house we were renting. Maybe I didn't take any notice. Are you talking only about the newer estates or particular estates in Point Cook having P class soil? Is Manor Lakes any better? We have built here and I'm still trying to come to terms with the best way to deal with protecting our foundations even though we don't have a P class site. Or do you mean it is more of an issue because land in Point Cook is so expensive to start with?

Ponzu · May 27, 2014 12:32 pm

Liliana

and Ponzu - I'm surprised by what you are saying about Point Cook. We lived there for 8 years from 2004 to 2012 near the Sanctuary Lakes shopping centre and I didn't notice a lot of soil movement around the house we were renting. Maybe I didn't take any notice. Are you talking only about the newer estates or particular estates in Point Cook having P class soil? Is Manor Lakes any better? We have built here and I'm still trying to come to terms with the best way to deal with protecting our foundations even though we don't have a P class site. Or do you mean it is more of an issue because land in Point Cook is so expensive to start with?

its possible the home you were renting was well constructed with appropriate foundation protections. The issue with the P clas sites is that they are suboptimal. They can still be built on and they can be sound for all time to come. However that all depends on your builder and the occupants.

I know pont cook has an exceptional number of P sites, and for sub optimal land, youre right, the price is exorbitant. But I guess suppl/demand etc.

Manor lakes has H1/H2 sites. Im sur ethere will be some lesser examples either end of this as you explore. So still not optimal, but much of the west isnt.

What manor lakes has going for it is a station smack bang in the middle of the estate. So watch those house prices go up when its in action. I know PC has williams landing station, but it is no wher enear as central.

I think as EmyN p higlighted, its not a good investement (short or long term) whichever way you look at it. if you want to live in point cook, the risk you take in building is everything that has been mentioned. you could be lucky, but the odds are generally stacked against you. outside of luck you could be dillegent and assertive through the building process to ensure you get a soundly built home.

as to protecting your footings, read the CSIRO guide you builder gives you - its a building technology file (BTF 18). While youre at it, obtain BTF 19 and 22, which is the builders equivalent. Its noce to be aware of what your ebuilder should be doing during construction as well as what they expect of you post hand over. You will find that they regularly fail to mme the standards set out in BTF 19 and 22 along with Australian standards. So as long a syou know what is expected of them, they wont be able to blame footing damage soley on you, if you can evidence that youve met your reqirments, and they havent. Visit your site and take photos of stf fthat doesnt look right to protect yourself also. Its all you really can do and just cros syour fingers.

Also dont feel put out by having to raise stuff with the, just dont be a monster about it.

MelbourneMate · May 30, 2014 3:25 am

Hi EmyN and Liliana

Losing hard earned money is never easy and 32k is a signifciant amount of money. It was a tough decision but as Ponzu pointed out we had to seriously assess whether to bite the bullet and build a house and then "hope" that we actually gain some equity or do we cut our losses at 32k.

I know everyone says its a home and this is where we want to live and Im not worried about the investment/return but there is no denial that a home is one of the biggest investments in our lives and we all want to a financial return. We even considered building and renting it but over 400+ rental properties it isnt a real hot bed for renters and with over 1200+ properties/blocks of land for sale (not even counting the land blocks in new estates) - we had to cop a 32k loss. In addition Point Cook is one of the most heavily mortgaged suburbs in Australia. A major downturn in economy would results in massive foreclosure and what does that result into? Further drop in property prices.

Also dont forget there is so much of land available all around point cook that the greedy developers will always be filling the pockets of the politicians (regardless who they are) to get all the available land rezoned to residential. The East Werribee Project is a classic example. Everyday greedy developers are knocking on the doors of the farmers to sell their acres of land (and eventually the farmers do for a great price) and more and more land is available. Who will pay premium for an established property when you have a new estate ccoming up next door?

Liliana the youtube you attached is link is awesome - very well packaged as marketing collateral. That is what the developers do- that is how they sell - we also got roped in by one of these videos, expensive folders and all the glittery marketing material. But the reality is different:

Point Cook population 2014 – 36,356 persons
Point Cook population 2036 – 60,329 persons (projection)

The forecast areas for Point Cook comprise of Point Cook Central, Point Cook South and Sanctuary Lakes and not other areas who also share the same infrastructure. Add another 10 or 20 thousand people and add the East Werribee Project.

How do you think this suburb will look and feel with:

- this population and single lane roads everywhere?
- an aged and unreliable rail system?
- single freeway option in and out?
- with little chance for local employment except in limited industries?
- not enough school capacity for the number of children who require education?
- not enough police presence and plans to even REDUCE it announced this week?
- an over supply of residential properties that are not selling and yet the council are allowing MORE to be built?

By the way there are plans that Werribee south is next to be subdivided and turned into another growth corridor. Guess some very interesting times ahead.

With all the above in mind we thought 32k loss was easier to deal with.

Again this is my personal experience and views and I do not discourage anyone from buying, selling, viewing etc. At the end of the people will and have to make decisions what suits them and live by them. Ouch the 32k still hurts:)

Liliana · May 30, 2014 9:22 am

Hi Melbourne Mate,

Thanks for that comprehensive reply. You've certainly given everyone something to think about. A lot of people - me included - don't look very much beyond our little square of turf (or in our case, mud) when deciding whether to buy or build but it's good to be reminded that decisions are being made for us all the time that will affect how we live longterm. While we are constantly being told to become more energy efficient and conscious of our environment at the personal level, urban planning doesn't seem to have to operate by the same rules. I'm sure there would be ways to ensure that services and infrastructure don't lag behind housing but that would mean forgoing gain now. Urban planning doesn't seem to be much debated. I wonder what they mean by 21st century city???

QuarumNibblet · May 30, 2014 10:46 am

Ahh, interesting.

I'd done quite a bit of research before deciding to go with point cook - including reading up the melbourne planning guide which outlines the East Werribee precinct (http://www.planmelbourne.vic.gov.au/ ) , I think the one thing I missed was what a class P site actually was and what the impacts of this are - however, I guess at the end of the day its a risk that as long as you are aware of can try to mitigate through the build process.

It's interesting though seeing how what one person sees as a negative can be seen as a positive to another, and as I'm planning on a long term place to live (10-15 years) and have no real special needs around things such as transport or schooling I guess I'm in a reasonably unique situation.

Really appreciate the feedback though, it's certainly good getting information from people that have actually lived in the area and are in a position to talk with authority on the subject.

Ponzu · May 30, 2014 11:17 am

QuarumNibblet

Ahh, interesting.

I think the one thing I missed was what a class P site actually was and what the impacts of this are - however, I guess at the end of the day its a risk that as long as you are aware of can try to mitigate through the build process.

you can try, but you need to be diligent throughout the process. You have lots of reading ahead of you to understand whther what youre seeing on yuor site is infact acceptible for your site. I highly recommend getting an independant inspector for one, and then making sure that you at the very least learn enough about construction to know when a builder is telling you porkies (this iste ks good for that).

Like mine telling me that the water pooling against my slab was "fine" - when I aletretd them to the fact ive been taking pictures since the start of constuction, and that any slab heave would be as a result of them not following australian standards and the draininage engineering plans, they fixed it up within 24hrs.

A lot of people would have taken the "fine" at face value.

EmyN · May 30, 2014 11:26 am

Wow that sounds like a terribly prepared area if all of that's true.

I feel lucky to live in an area where the rail has just been added with 3 more stations in the pipeline, all major roads have the space to be upgraded to double if needed, two new schools in the past year and a massive expansion of central parklands and shopping districts, not to mention a new hospital has just commenced construction.

I can't believe the government would allow such poor planning to be approved. That's crazy.

QuarumNibblet · May 30, 2014 12:12 pm

Ponzu

QuarumNibblet

Ahh, interesting.

I think the one thing I missed was what a class P site actually was and what the impacts of this are - however, I guess at the end of the day its a risk that as long as you are aware of can try to mitigate through the build process.

you can try, but you need to be diligent throughout the process. You have lots of reading ahead of you to understand whther what youre seeing on yuor site is infact acceptible for your site. I highly recommend getting an independant inspector for one, and then making sure that you at the very least learn enough about construction to know when a builder is telling you porkies (this iste ks good for that).

Like mine telling me that the water pooling against my slab was "fine" - when I aletretd them to the fact ive been taking pictures since the start of construction, and that any slab heave would be as a result of them not following australian standards and the draininage engineering plans, they fixed it up within 24hrs.

A lot of people would have taken the "fine" at face value.

Yeah, after reading through this forum I've come to the conclusion that probably the #1 best investment for a new house is getting an inspector at each stage. When you look at the price (approx $500/stage for 5 stages, or around 2.5k) its a drop in the bucket when you're spending around 500-600k and can end up saving huge amounts.

While I enjoy reading and finding out about new things (like the different soil classes and what they mean) I'm also very aware of how little I know and when I need help. This would be one of these times, the risks if things go wrong are really too great.

I've also learnt far more than I ever expected possible by trawling through these forums and using this as a jump off point for further research on the net - it really does pay to do your research, if for no other reason than the knowledge that you're going in eyes wide open which lessens the impact of surprises when they happen.

uk3777 · Jul 21, 2014 2:07 pm

Hi QuarumNibblet,

Apologies for the the late reply. Good to know you are one of our neighbor...

I understand that the titles are out soon, ru planning to build soon after the titles?

huangeffendi · Mar 17, 2015 11:54 pm

Hi All,

Just pulled a trigger at Saratoga, stage 6 with land & build package from Tribeca. The build will have to wait until land settlement finished in May/June. Is anyone here has a pic progress of the site?

Thanks