Browse Forums Lighting + Lighting Design Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 2Aug 30, 2012 9:29 pm Settlement 1/2/12 New Shed 23/3/12 Slab poured 27/3/12 Frame complete 4/5/12 Roof complete 1/6/12 LOCKUP 29/6/12 Our new build blog http://kareenhillsownerbuild.blogspot.com/ Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 8Oct 10, 2012 12:54 pm Build Thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=57639 Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 9May 30, 2013 11:16 pm . Block settled 07 June 2011 Our little piece of the Interwebs on HomeOne....... viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48577&start=0 Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 11May 31, 2013 10:46 am . Block settled 07 June 2011 Our little piece of the Interwebs on HomeOne....... viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48577&start=0 Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 13May 31, 2013 12:43 pm think_wise I will not guarantee this is up to date but.... : This requirement shall be satisfied by one of the following methods: (a) The use of a luminaire specifically designed and certified by the manufacturer to permit— (i) contact with combustible materials; or (ii) enclosure or covering by thermal insulation material, as appropriate to the location of the luminaire. (b) Installation of the luminaire within a suitable fire-resistant enclosure. (c) Provision of required clearances from combustible and thermal insulating material as specified by the manufacturer of the luminaire. (d) Provision of the default clearances from combustible and thermal insulating material as specified in Figure 4.7. Not having access to the regulations, I suspect you're right !!! So if this is the case, the three options are ............. 1) (a)(i)(ii)....A specific "fire rated" light fixture, I have seen a couple of these in my browsing, but there is a very limited choice and as such, their prices reflect this 2) (b) Install some sort of cover 3) (c) & (d) Ensure suitable clearance from the light to the cover Light manufacturers can specify clearances as they deem appropriate, and in the absence of a specification the standard default values (LED / CFL / Incandescent = 50mm, Halogen = 200mm) must be used. I see that you said that your lights do meet the minimum requirements So, Unless specific fire-rated lights or covers are used, we're back to the energy assessor marking the insulation levels down ! I fully understand your points as a lighting manufacturer that you are seeking to have your lights running as cool as possible (Lights must be installed in a fully air-conditioned roof space, only in Tasmania, and only used during winter nights ) and can see that that covering a bare light with nice and cozy insulation is something that would cause many issues. However, as more and more people build new homes and run into these energy assessment problems this is something that the manufacturers are going to need to address sooner rather than later. IMHO, As a consumer, if the regulations (and a large part of the problem is that there are two masters to satisfy, the "Safety..Must have clearance" problem and the "Energy efficiency, Must not have clearance" problem ) pretty much "require" me to have covers then the lighting and cover manufacturers need to work together to address this problem !! We are just about to sign off on our new home, a large-ish house with around 150 downlights and I'm the sort of guy who does (and expects) things to be done properly. IMHO, while there are unlimited choices in LED downlights available in Australia, there are only a handful that I would consider using, and yes, Thinkwise is one of them !! So my energy assessor tells me that I've got to significantly increase the R-Value of my roof insulation if I don't use downlight covers, and I do the research and find that of the three of four I've been considering, not all of them will approve / warranty their lights if used with covers, what would you do if you were me ? P_D . Block settled 07 June 2011 Our little piece of the Interwebs on HomeOne....... viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48577&start=0 Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 14May 31, 2013 12:59 pm I do agree its a bit of a pain, because keeping the R value of your insulation would be great. As some news. Our spark900 has passed the 90deg test in NZ which means it remains under 90deg whilst completely covered with insulation. We are yet to decide how far we endorse this in Australia as it does reduce the chips working life. However I would say it could still outlive a lot of product we currently see arriving on our shores..... Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 15May 31, 2013 2:36 pm think_wise ......As some news. Our spark900 has passed the 90deg test in NZ ............. That's great news for the consumer, just the sort of thing we need !! think_wise ......However I would say it could still outlive a lot of product we currently see arriving on our shores..... That's probably not too hard a task !!! There's a reason why some products are dearer than others, and that's because they actually are better than others. As a consumer it frustrates me that while I appear to have an ever-increasing range of choices (not just in downlights, but in just about any product I purchase) it is getting harder and harder to find quality products. I feel for manufacturers such as yourself who bring a quality product into such a competitive market but who are unable to compete on price. But, my experience has taught me that it's usually far cheaper to "Buy it right, buy it once". In this particular case I could save myself a bucket-load of $$'s my using Yum-Cha brand (or even worse, no-brand) downlights, but I know what would happen ................ 1) I wouldn't be satisfied with the brightness or colour 2) I'd have several "flickering" of otherwise not performing 3) I'd complain to the builder who would tell me it's the electricians / suppliers problem 4) The electrician / supplier wouldn't be interested 5) Finally they would realise I meant business and tell me that the lights were performing according to their specifications 5a) ..........Except maybe it might be the dimmer manufacturers fault 5b) The dimmer manufacturer would tell me that the dimmers were operating according to their specifications 6) Someone would replace two or three downlights 7) Now the downlights are "Out of warranty" 8 ) More fail, I cannot buy the exact same ones and now I have several different downlights throughout the house 9) The new downlights also require a bigger / smaller hole and I have painting & patching issues And that's why I buy decent ones in the first place P_D . Block settled 07 June 2011 Our little piece of the Interwebs on HomeOne....... viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48577&start=0 Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 18Jun 12, 2013 12:01 am Ca6leguy Led running temperature is around 60 to 80 degrees depending on the bulb. At this temperature it is not enough to burn compared to halogen which runs at 300+ degrees. Yes, True, but this may or may not actually be completely relevant. As previously mentioned, the BCA (now actually the NCC) states the required clearance for different types of downlights, and LEDs are in the same category as CFL and (regular) incandescent globes. So, while there is not a large risk that LED downlights will cause a fire they are still "required" to be clear of combustible materials and should NOT be covered with insulation. Covering them with insulation can lead to the heat that they DO generate being unable to escape and causing premature failure due to overheating. "Approved" covers give them some clearance from the insulation so they don't cook themselves, ensures that they remain clear of combustible materials and keep the energy assessors happy by ensuring that the insulation layer in your ceiling remains intact. SO...To answer the topic of the thread, "Are heat shields needed for LED downlights", they short answer is... "Yes, in a new build, they ARE required". P_D . Block settled 07 June 2011 Our little piece of the Interwebs on HomeOne....... viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48577&start=0 Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 19Jun 23, 2013 8:26 pm OK, This has been a hot topic on Whirlpool, and for those who don't have access there, here's the summary .................. AS/NZS 3000:2007 sets out the requirements that downlights are to be installed in such a manner as to prevent any fire risk to buildings. As we've done to death, there are three ways this can be achieved.... 1) Use an approved downlight with an integral fire shield 2) Maintain adequate clearance 3) Use an APPROVED COVER Now, using option 3, we find that AS/NZS 5110:2011 will define for us an "Approved Cover". The take-home point of AS/NZS 5110:2011 is that covers are classified according to a number of points, such as resistance to burning, their own insulation values, physical strength and the like. Of interest to us then are TWO POINTS in the Standard.... 1)..... The applications the cover may be used for The Standard provides three options, and the classification shall be marked on the cover.... 1) Single Combination....Only suitable for ONE particular downlight 2) Combination...Suitable for several different downlights. In this case the cover must be marked with either a list of the downlights it is compatible with OR a web-address that lists the downlights the cover is approved for 3) Generic.....Must be marked as to being suitable for a CLASS of downlight, FOR EXAMPLE "Suitable for LED downlights up to 20 Watts" AND 2).....The amount of insulation permitted adjacent or above the cover, for us in Australia (excluding possibly some Alpine regions) there are two options.... 1) Normal (depth)’ barriers: ‘Suitable for direct abutment to normally flammable building elements or insulation depth of 200 mm’ 2) ‘Allowed to cover’ barriers: ‘Suitable for direct abutment and covering with normally flammable building elements or insulation of any depth’ and wording about locating the independent lamp control gear clear of the insulation. The covers must have markings on them as follows .... 1) For ANY sort of insulation, but in particular loose-fill type.... Line on the barrier to indicate the depth of insulation that is allowed by its classification. The width of the line shall be no less than 1 mm. Above this line the words to convey the intent of ‘NO INSULATION’ or ‘DO NOT BURY ABOVE LINE’ shall be marked in text no less than 5 mm in height. Text is to be legible from above. 2) For covers suitable for batts only..... Barriers that are only suitable for segmented thermal insulation do not require this line/marking but shall be marked ‘DANGER NOT SUITABLE FOR LOOSE FILL INSULATION’ in text no less than 10 mm in height. Text is to be legible from above. 3) Covers that CAN be covered...... Barriers classified as ‘Allowed to cover’ do not require this line/marking but shall be marked ‘May be covered’. So, in summary, my $0.02 For my NEW BUILD I will be using downlight covers approved to AS/NZS 5110:2011, with a "LUMINAIRE SUITABILITY CLASSIFICATION" of GENERIC and a DEPTH CLASSIFICATION of "ALLOWED TO COVER". This ticks both of "The Boxes" ........... 1) It ensures that the downlight is installed in a "safe" manner that maintains adequate clearance from combustible materials and prevents possible future breaches of fire protection by, as they say, leaves, vermin or wind blowing unwanted materials into the ceiling space 2) It keeps our Energy Assessor friends happy as we maintain appropriate levels of insulation in the ceiling space without having 200mm diameter insulation "holes" around every downlight. And realistically, I think this is now the ONLY option available to new builds or significant renovations where you want to use downlights. Hope this helps and possibly clears things up !! P_D . Block settled 07 June 2011 Our little piece of the Interwebs on HomeOne....... viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48577&start=0 Re: ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS? 20Jan 05, 2014 4:37 pm A lot of great info here guys, some very informative, and some not relevant. You see, LED downlights are designed to dissipate heat (if any) evenly through the attached or built in Heat Sink, and therefore do not pose a problem when positioned close to thermal insulation. LED downlights, like any working product requires ample air flow to help cool the unit, and by covering them with a shroud/insulation will hinder this task from occuring, and thereby shortening the life of the light. Common sense will tell you not to cover any light fitting that has penetrated the ceiling space, and stated by the manufacturer that a heat shroud is not needed. Rules and regulations vary on individual products, but if the particular Light was made to absorb the heat, then a heat can is not needed. It comes down to the tradesman/builder to ensure the lights and Insulation are installed in the correct manner. I hope this rather simple explanation has helped, but if you do have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask, as I am an electrician by trade, and we sell many major suppliers lights to the country, and would be happy to help. Kind Regards, Kristin Lighting Expert Phone -1300 798 220 Email - service@golights.com.au Website - http://www.golights.com.au There may be answers here but can't find anything. I have a closed in veranda, four windows. North facing, just had sunblock blinds installed. A bit cooler (actually… 0 3976 Shade the brick with large eves. Since going to minimum of 600mm eaves on my build, I've noticed much improved cooling off the house after hot summer days. Can see the… 1 4748 That's brilliant would appreciate if you have you can locate the other doc so I can use it with my discussion with the building surveyor 10 1880 |