Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! 1 Nov 13, 2022 7:35 am Hi All - We're pretty anxious and would value some advice about the acceptability (or not) of this steel frame and it being offset from the slab. Poor workmanship, but a carpenter has erected our steel frame with the overhang seen in the pictures. At one end of the slab the overhang is negligible, and at the other hand it's in the order of 35mm. This just tells me it is not "square" on the slab. I find it a little hard to believe how this can happen unless you have little experience or aren't paying attention! So - question is: how concerned should I be about this overhang and the fact the frame is offset to the slab? What implications does it have if it is uncorrected? It feels that, given the frame is fully erected, there's little ability to correct it, and I just need to "live with it".... Builder is looking to sidestep the issue and putting nothing in writing. Any constructive advice or insight welcome! Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: Frame sitting off slab 3Nov 13, 2022 9:45 am balmainboy Poor workmanship, but a carpenter has erected our steel frame with the overhang seen in the pictures. At one end of the Could it be the slab? Not always the framer's fault. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Frame sitting off slab 4Nov 13, 2022 9:55 am SaveH2O balmainboy Poor workmanship, but a carpenter has erected our steel frame with the overhang seen in the pictures. At one end of the Could it be the slab? Not always the framer's fault. On the side opposite the overhang there's the same size clearance from frame edge to slab (ie. 35mm). So slab looks sweet. And the frame is flush with the slab at the far end of the slab. So, would suggest the issue is the frame is "skewed" and off center. Re: Frame sitting off slab 5Nov 13, 2022 10:12 am balmainboy check https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/__da ... ances_.pdf see page 35 then consult a lawyer. Your frame stage payment is not due until its been done or appropriately rectified to the relevant building standard. Re: Frame sitting off slab 6Nov 13, 2022 10:23 am Kippers01 @balmainboy check https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/__da ... ances_.pdf see page 35 then consult a lawyer. Your frame stage payment is not due until its been done or appropriately rectified to the relevant building standard. Thanks. I actually paid the frame stage on July 4th....then all this came to light. Still unresolved. Ringing a lawyer on Monday. Thanks for the advice. Re: Frame sitting off slab 7Nov 13, 2022 11:54 am balmainboy SaveH2O balmainboy Poor workmanship, but a carpenter has erected our steel frame with the overhang seen in the pictures. At one end of the Could it be the slab? Not always the framer's fault. On the side opposite the overhang there's the same size clearance from frame edge to slab (ie. 35mm). So slab looks sweet. And the frame is flush with the slab at the far end of the slab. So, would suggest the issue is the frame is "skewed" and off center. That could still be the slab that is out of square. If the slab is the shape of a parallelogram the slab itself will measure the correct length along each side but will give you what you describe. The frames could be out, but often it's the concrete that is out and the carpenters are squaring up. It's easier to mark out and square in a poured slab than it is for grano worker's. You can easily check for square by using the old 3,4,5 along the frame you think is out. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: Frame sitting off slab 8Nov 13, 2022 8:30 pm If I could ask - what's the actual remedy here - Would they need to deconstruct the frame to rectify? Re: Frame sitting off slab 9Nov 13, 2022 11:15 pm The method chosen needs a certified Performance Solution that often requires just a length of dynabolted treated pine or angle steel. There has been plenty of photos in forum posts about this subject, Just do a forum search using some keywords like frame overhang, metal bar, performance solution (formerly alternative solution) etc. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Frame sitting off slab 10Nov 14, 2022 7:15 pm I was told by the certifier today... "Frame overhangs are not actually a BCA item but rather included in the NSW standards and tolerances which is not a regulated document." /sigh What's the point in having them if they're not enforceable. Re: Frame sitting off slab 11Nov 14, 2022 10:31 pm I have just spent considerable time going through the 2019 NCC Part 2 (BCA) and can find no reference to frame overhang although masonry overhang (max 15mm) is covered at 3.2.2.7. There are several references from other sources to frame overhang being at 2.1 but I looked and there is no mention. Unfortunately, I no longer have the previous NCC Part 2 (BCA) edition to compare.. Standards and tolerances GUIDES are not legislated yet many who should know better quote their content as regulatory. If their use has inadvertently led to the deletion of frame overhang regulations within the NCC, then it is extraordinary! EDITED 15/11/2022. Included text "from other sources". 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Frame sitting off slab 12Nov 15, 2022 12:30 am I'm not a contact expert and you haven't mentioned where you live, but this extract from the forward discussing the "authority of the guide" would seem to cover your situation. It says! "In Victoria, the Domestic Building Contracts Act 1995 defines the term ‘defective’ as: “ In relation to domestic building work, includes: a) a breach of any warranty listed in section 8 b) a failure to maintain a standard or quality of building work specified in the contract.” This Guide can be used to determine whether or not an item is defective only where this cannot be done by reference to the contract documents, the relevant Australian Standards, the BCA or the relevant regulations. Where there is any contradiction or difference between the Guide and an Act, a regulation, the BCA or a building contract, all of these take precedence over the Guide. The Guide does not replace the requirements of these other documents." When discussing the application of the guide it says this: "The Guide is intended to inform parties as to what is an acceptable standard of workmanship in domestic building work. It should be noted that builders, subsequent owners and those purchasing from owner-builders or developers can also use this Guide to resolve possible disputes, irrespective of whether or not they were a party to the original building contract. This edition of the Guide is valid from 30 March 2015 and is applicable to domestic building contracts entered into from that date, or domestic building work that commences from that date (where there is no domestic building contract)." From these points it would seem to indicate that the standards are enforceable. It may be time to get a building inspector in to verify the framing is compliant. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: Frame sitting off slab 13Nov 15, 2022 12:38 am Just realised that you are obviously in NSW. The guide has the same wording as I posted above but is dated 2017 rather than 2015. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: Frame sitting off slab 14Nov 15, 2022 7:31 am balmainboy I was told by the certifier today... "Frame overhangs are not actually a BCA item but rather included in the NSW standards and tolerances which is not a regulated document." /sigh That is correct the guide is a "feel good guide" which does sweet bugger all if it is not referenced in the contract documents. The builders doesn't reference it, nor does the Building Surveyor and I'm guessing there is no mention in the engineers documentation that relates to structural overhangs or cantilevers. balmainboy What's the point in having them if they're not enforceable. Lol, It's enforceable if in the engineers document...get it I don't let Fcuk wits that don't give a sh!t on site try to get away with anything..... Next time talk to your engineer first rather than a salesman Cheers Chris Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Frame sitting off slab 15Nov 15, 2022 7:39 am Doesn't the BCA reference Australian framing standards AS 1684 and building to these standards (DTS or 'performance') is a minimum requirement of the HIA, MBA or DFT contracts? The states' standards & tolerances guides are 'non regulated" docs, however they are based on the BCA and AU stds aren't they? Otherwise what is the point? Re: Frame sitting off slab 16Nov 15, 2022 8:11 am How about the structural codes ie, AS1720 Timber structures, AS3600 Concrete Structures, AS3700 Masonry structures, etc,etc The giveaway is structures in the title why aren't they properly referenced and checked on site? No doubt the NSW government knows what's really going on, hence Building Bill 2022 Have your say Making home building fairer and easier Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Frame sitting off slab 17Nov 16, 2022 8:07 am Thankyou to everyone for the replies and expertise. Greatly appreciated. I've got a specialist solicitor now dealing with the matter as well in the interests of getting some traction. Re: Frame sitting off slab 18Nov 16, 2022 8:58 am Kippers01 The states' standards & tolerances guides are 'non regulated" docs, however they are based on the BCA and AU stds aren't they? Otherwise what is the point? Standards are regularly updated but Guides are not and sometimes they do not concur with updates, the reason why Guides are not legislated and only have legal standing when they are referenced in a contract. Australian Standards also have to be either legislated or written into a contract otherwise they are only documents that have been published by Standards Australia, a not for profit, private company and registered charity.. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Frame sitting off slab 20Nov 16, 2022 2:06 pm The best thing to do is have them put on the engineering documents ie, details, notes,etc. Builders and designers often change details on the Architectural and construction Drawings citing alternate solution What they can't do is change/ignore the engineering drawings/ notes. Ask your engineer to Note on his drawings: Any changes to be brought to the engineers attention immediately (ideally nip in the bud before it gets covered over hidden/forgotten ) Cheers Chris Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs The unit normally clips into a metal plate screwed to the wall, either plate is not flush, or unit not hooked in and could be hanging from the pipes partly, either might… 2 16262 This is 100% true. You can not hang anything on steel frames. very frustrating 8 10376 This is the best I have, as it is plastered internally now. I should add there is a steel post in the corner of the room between the window and the glass sliding door,… 3 1085 |