Browse Forums Building A New House Page 1 of 1 17 replies Reply Like Share More 01 Oct 2019 63 ACT Loyal Member 1 Oct 02, 2019 9:45 pm Hi guys, hard to compare volume builders vs custom guys. Can anyone give me some guidance as to what is reasonable to expect for 450 in terms of size and quality. I’m trying to build a 4 bedroom house, with two living areas and a big garage in Canberra. Thanks! Reply Reply Like Share More 03 Feb 2019 365 VIC Gold Member Re: What will 450k get me? 2Oct 03, 2019 9:30 am Hi mate, I don't know exactly what size and quality of finishes you are expecting, but $450k (for the build alone?) should be more than enough....unless you go fully custom build with lots of wall to ceiling tiling and heaps of custom cabinetry upgrades etc. Like I've suggested in my post just now to your other thread on the house design, if you want to check out our building blog (link below). We are spending ~$350k on the main construction only, so you can then see what we are getting built for us by a small volume builder (that do around 30 houses per year). It is 4 bedroom, 2 living, 2 bathroom and a study. Our finishes are fairly basic, but we have upgraded our windows/doors, insulation and other things mostly related to comfort and energy efficiency. Our contract only includes the main house only, so we have to do driveways, curtains etc later on. The level of finish in relation to kitchens, tiling (in general) and cabinetry upgrades are probably where you can really go BIG in terms of dollars. Also facades are generally around $15-$20k just for fairly basic ones. In terms of additional floor size, we paid around $1000 per sqm for living, and around $800 per sqm for garage increase. I think Alfresco was also around $750-$800 per sqm. Extra plumbing areas are also killers for cost. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Check our Homeone build blog here Reply Reply Like Share More 01 Oct 2019 63 ACT Loyal Member Re: What will 450k get me? 3Oct 03, 2019 9:57 am Thanks mate - will sit down with the other half and review your blog tonight. The build aloine includes site works, council approvals etc. The base price of the design we chose was 380k, then I've expanded it for another ~30k (410k), then when you add nicer finishes, additional insulation, higher cieling etc ~40-90k (450-500k)... Price goes up fast! Reply Reply Like Share More 25 Oct 2019 7 ACT Junior Member Re: What will 450k get me? 4Oct 25, 2019 1:31 pm Hi Josh, I am also from Canberra, first of all Canberra build price is relatively higher than other state I reckon, recently I have two friends start building their new custom home. And here is the build cost from them For 540k (260m2 living + 36m2 garage + 12m2 alfresco) - Throsby For 400k (190m2 living + 36m2 garage + 6m2 alfresco) - Strathnairn The inclusion is fair with e.g. Kitchen allowance 20k etc, 2.7 ceiling, 2.34 door throughout etc, for quality I would say it's mid range. All site cost included, as both are flat block (excluded landscaping and courtyard / retaining wall). The above is for single story build, if double, the cost will be 10% more according to most of the builders. I hope the above information is useful to you, good luck with your new build : ) Reply Reply Like Share More 01 Oct 2019 63 ACT Loyal Member Re: What will 450k get me? 5Oct 25, 2019 9:17 pm Cenconq - many thanks for your reply! Such great info - especially as it’s regarding Canberra - where everything seems to cost more... We’re weighing up Rawson v Mcdonald Jones at the moment as the volume builders of choice for us - both neck and neck at this point. Looked into Classic constructions and Blackett - both I think would do a higher quality build, but the costing is less certain and you have to pay more upfront - I feel like I’ll go in there with the intention to build a house for 450-500(max), and end up building a high quality beautiful home for 560... or a much smaller house that is not what we wanted for 500... Thanks again for your response! Reply Reply Like Share More 25 Oct 2019 7 ACT Junior Member Re: What will 450k get me? 6Oct 25, 2019 11:07 pm Hi Josh, Both Rawson or Mcdonald Jones are very safe option as they both have pretty good reputation and usually cheaper than custom builders (economies of scale) however only if you know what you want at the beginning, as they are not as flexible as custom builders, any changes after contract signed will increase the building cost significantly. One of my builder friends always say, it is normal to go over 5 - 10% of the budget when building, which is ok, as long as the money you spent is for something obvious e.g. ceiling height, living size, etc. but not expensive kitchen appliances or Italian tiles etc. as size gives value to the house in long term but not the design especially after years when the design looks "dated". Anyway I hope you will find the right builder and wish you have smooth building experience and remember always negotiate the price, I know someone who negotiated and bring down the price for some % : ) Reply Reply Like Share More Reply Like Share More 17 Nov 2019 1 New Poster Re: What will 450k get me? 8Nov 17, 2019 8:26 am Josh22 Cenconq - many thanks for your reply! Such great info - especially as it’s regarding Canberra - where everything seems to cost more... We’re weighing up Rawson v Mcdonald Jones at the moment as the volume builders of choice for us - both neck and neck at this point. Looked into Classic constructions and Blackett - both I think would do a higher quality build, but the costing is less certain and you have to pay more upfront - I feel like I’ll go in there with the intention to build a house for 450-500(max), and end up building a high quality beautiful home for 560... or a much smaller house that is not what we wanted for 500... Thanks again for your response! Classic Constructions recently completed (June 2019) my new home at Denman Prospect. If you would like to know about my experience with this builder then feel free to email me at trehan28@outlook.com Reply Reply Like Share More 03 Feb 2021 2 New Poster Re: What will 450k get me? 9Feb 05, 2021 8:03 pm Josh22 Hi guys, hard to compare volume builders vs custom guys. Can anyone give me some guidance as to what is reasonable to expect for 450 in terms of size and quality. I’m trying to build a 4 bedroom house, with two living areas and a big garage in Canberra. Thanks! Hi. Josh22 I’ve really enjoyed your posts! A year ago you were asking all the questions I now have as we too are preparing to build a 4 bedroom house with two living spaces, a big garage and ideally a granny flat! We are trying to choose between Rawson and GJ Gardiner and Classic. Could you please tell me what you ended up doing and are there any key tips/ lessons you could pass on to us? Many thanks Reply Reply Like Share More 01 Oct 2019 63 ACT Loyal Member Re: What will 450k get me? 10Feb 06, 2021 10:41 am Joyful63 Josh22 Hi guys, hard to compare volume builders vs custom guys. Can anyone give me some guidance as to what is reasonable to expect for 450 in terms of size and quality. I’m trying to build a 4 bedroom house, with two living areas and a big garage in Canberra. Thanks! Hi. Josh22 I’ve really enjoyed your posts! A year ago you were asking all the questions I now have as we too are preparing to build a 4 bedroom house with two living spaces, a big garage and ideally a granny flat! We are trying to choose between Rawson and GJ Gardiner and Classic. Could you please tell me what you ended up doing and are there any key tips/ lessons you could pass on to us? Many thanks Hi Joy, In regards to Rawson/GJ Gardiner and Classic. We only looked in detail at Rawson and McDonald Jones (got a fair way down that rabbit hole – site survey completed, tenders with both etc). Classics and Blackett - we only had some initial engagement; however, have had friends who built with both – no significant issues. GJ Gardiner is likely very similar to Rawson; however, they are a franchise (which means that the quality and experience can differ even more from region to region). We ended up going in a completely different direction – architect and small builder. Mainly as we found a builder who we wanted to build with. This level of trust is coming at an extreme premium in cost – probably $150k more than Rawson’s. That said, our original budget of 450k was very naïve – especially for Canberra (where it seems to be considerably more expensive to build a house – I’d say 80k more than Melb or Syd, and 120k more than regional). We spec’d up (had considerable allowances (more than they recommended for electrical, joinery, etc)) a McDonald Jones house (Avondale – with a bigger garage and we changed the back of it a bit) – that came to 650k. I think you could get away with 600k if you were disciplined in your choices. My summary on the different levels of builders: - Project Builder: Cheapest option, pretty good designs and with a little bit of extra cash here and there you could create a nice home. Be wary of how they make money – don’t get trapped. - Smaller Project Builders – Classic/Blackett – strike a good balance between cost, quality and ease. - Independent builder – Higher cost, more flexibility, relationship focused. Will require more leg work on your behalf. Below is a grouping of responses to people who have PM’d me – so ill put it here in one spot (if it doesn’t make sense let me know). Basically, this is the world according to me in relation to the types of builders and general tips – I wish you the best of luck! Different Builders: - Project builders Rawson’s/McDonald Jones (National office – 1000s of houses each year) o Cost § Lowest Cost - IF you don’t go too overboard in their design studio (but you will be limited by their options – so you can go high in cost, but not too high) § They achieve their lower cost through significant buying power. For example: · Bricks: Austral bricks for my place $2200, my independent builder told me he can get them for $1600; I imagine a smaller project builder probably gets them for $1300; whereas a large project builder likely gets them for $800. · Kitchen/laundry goods - I already have all of my own kitchen/laundry goods – they wouldn’t remove it from the package as it doesn’t cost them much – they even said “Most people will ask for it to be delivered and left in its box; they will then sell it on gumtree”. § Now this “buying power” works well for you in the initial home cost and maybe a little towards their “luxury choice package etc”. They are buying bricks, wood, MDF etc for thousands of homes – they get a big discount and therefore build the house allot cheaper than their competitors. · This is good for an investment property – especially if you don’t add anything extra and just use their minimum inclusions (which will be very minimal - one double power point and one light per room is rarely enough). · This will result in a very simple/maybe bland house – however, it will be fit for purpose/6-star energy rating and built to an ok standard. To me, unless you spend some money adding to their inclusions (more lights, bigger garage, more power points/storage etc) – you are building a house; not a home. § This buying power is not necessarily passed onto you in the design studio – i.e an additional/premium tile may cost $2000 more total; however, it really only costs them $500 more (Building providers will provide two receipts to builders – the retail receipt, and the builders’ receipt. So, your choice costs them nothing (as you’re paying anyway), but they will make a considerable profit each time you make a choice that exceeds the pre agreed inclusions. o Quality: § Acceptable. § They will use the cheapest quote they get in; for the most part this will be fine (bricky only knows one way to lay a brick etc); but you’ll be disappointed if you are a perfectionist, looking for precision, high quality draw runners/window sliders or even a proper three coat paint application (pretty sure they use a paint called “Three coat application” or something to make it sound like it’s the same as a high quality paint job…). § It is likely they do their quality control through their site foreman and then their final inspection. They likely have an actuary who has worked out the cost of fixing repairs against the costs lost to more premium subcontractors, and the lost opportunity costs of building less homes. In layman’s terms, they’re betting that for 90% of homes there will be no real issues, and the savings made on these 90% will outweigh the cost and repudiation loss associated with fixing the other 10%. o Designs § Set designs only § Some modifications allowed (make garage bigger etc) o Flexibility: § Low - you may not be able to get something you want: § Oversized windows, raked roof, hardwood /polished concrete floors – If you have any specific “must haves”, ask – don’t assume the project builder can do it. § You may also be limited to their selection or the selection of one company – for tiles etc. If you found an amazing tile somewhere from a different distributor, I doubt they’ll be able to get it (unless you put this in the contract – i.e. the specific tile) (this is because they don’t have that relationship where they get the good deals) o Flooring: § They will include flooring (won’t be amazing) but it is still a huge discriminator that people forget about when it comes to cost. § You could also remove it if you wanted to do your own – which they should give you a cedit. o Risk Threshold: § Low risk threshold for Developmental Applications – they likely won’t go through a DA. o Customer care: § Marketing/Sales will hand you over as soon as you sign – you won’t see or talk to them again; this is usually when the problems start (according to all the FB groups). § You will not select your foreman (Unless you know them and you can negotiate this in – we were going to request one in particular for McDonald jones (can’t remember his name – he does North side though so you would be fine). § When you complain it will be to a call centre in a national Office. - Smaller Project builders – Classics/Blackett (less than 50 houses per year) o Cost § Medium to high cost § They have some buying power – this enables them to make a little bit of profit and be competitive. As above, these savings will offer a cheaper build, not necessarily on your added choices (they probably wont pass it onto you). § They will not include flooring within their quote (unless you want them to). This is something you really need to factor in. Their reasoning: · Flooring is something you can do later- if they do it for you, they will add their margin (usually 20% onto). This margin is fare as they have coordinated the install and then warrant that work afterwards. · Flooring can really vary in cost. · If you choose to go with another builder – factor in flooring costs (this could be $50k) o Designs: § Some set Designs § But they will likely design a house with you (draftsman or architect of their choice) o Flexibility § Good - you will be able to get bigger windows, specific materials etc. o Quality: § Better quality finishes and inclusions than Project Builders – step downs for wet areas may be included etc. § Better quality control – they will have a list of a couple of subcontractors they will use. o Risk Threshold § They will consider developmental application – won’t be keen though. o Customer care: § Better than Large Project Builders § Usually one sales person, two foreman’s, and they use the same subcontractors for most of their work. If you’re not happy with something and you go over the foreman’s head; you’re talking to the manager of the company – not some call centre or national office in another state). - Independent/Small builder: o Cost § Medium to high cost § They will get discounts, but not to the same level as the other two § They may pass the builders saving across to you. § They likely have better inclusions or will choose higher quality fixtures/fines as their standard. o Designs § No set designs § You will need to engage a draftsman or architect and have plans to provide the builder. § The builder wont care about DA – you or the draftsman/architect will have to sort this out. o Flexibility: § High § You can choose whatever you want (they will push you to their suppliers or let you know which ones they get the biggest discount – which they hopefully will pass onto you). o Customer Service: § This person is your site foreman and business owner – so you get a very good feel as to who they are, there values and how you will problem solve throughout the project. § You will want to talk to people they have built with (probably how you found out about them anyway) – they will likely give you someone’s number to call (Other builders wont do this – mainly due to privacy. But an independent builder is likely still on good terms with their previous clients and will stay in touch through family and friends). § You will not have your hand held – although they will give you guidance. You will have allot of additional coordination and upfront costs – architect, engineer, soil sample, interior designer. These costs are included in the other builders. General Tips: - Site/Soil survey o If you pay Rawson to conduct a site/soil survey on your land – they are the “customer”, and own the test. They will give you a copy of the report; however, they will not give you the digital file (that has all the heights - that the engineer or architect needs). So, unless you are definitely going with them; I would be reluctant to pay for this test through them. o I do believe that other project builders (McDonald Jones) may make you the “customer” and therefore you should have no issue getting the digital file (I would check regardless of who I went through). - Project builders (Rawson/McDonald Jones). o Both were willing to make changes to their plans – move walls, make garage bigger, make living rooms wider, trade space between rooms etc. There costs seemed reasonable to do this. § Allot of the designs have garages that are 5.5 x6m or even 5.5x5.5 – I would suggest that both are too small. § Bedrooms are often 3x3m; if space and cost is an issue, then fine – otherwise I would be making these bigger. Go through the display homes, stand in a 3x3 room and then think of your kid’s furniture, toy box, desk etc. o There real profit generating mechanisms seems to be their respective design studios – where they will sit you down and go through all of the finishes for the house. This will likely be over a six-hour window where you will go in and sit with one of their interior designers (someone who is paid by them, likely has KPIs of how much they need to upsell per design). Tips if you go through this process: § Issue one: Spending more than you thought you would need: · Factor in a very healthy allowance for joinery, electrical and finishes. That way there won’t be any sticker shock. If the sales people say “on average people spend $10k average extra for electrical”, ask them to factor in $15k into the quote etc (if you don’t need it then fine, but if you were already maxed by the build itself; you may end up with a house that feels very cheap inside). · A good thing to do is to ask for the build cost of one of the display homes, then ask how much additional they’ve spent on it (my experience was that it was 80-200k more). § Issue two: Committing to spending money on the “nice to haves” prior to the “must haves”. · First thing you should have already spent more money making the house bigger – garage, rooms, storage etc. Then façade (some of the basic designs are truly ugly) · Now for you need to prioritise “must haves” over “nice to haves”. To do this, ask the designer/selector if you can start with the kitchen or bathrooms (likely where you’re going to have stronger preferences and must haves). · Note: I never went through the design process with either company; however, I am willing to bet they will leave your Kitchen design to last; most likely after the bathrooms. Probably for three reasons o 1. People don’t want to reverse decisions that they’ve made (either out of stubbornness or perceived embarrassment of not having enough money) “Yes I would love speakers in the ceiling” or “yes I would much prefer that more expensive tile” o 2. The kitchens and bathrooms is where allot of your “must haves” will be – therefore they will try and get you to expend your discretionary budget on the “nice/cool to have” o 3. You are tired, you want it to end. o If they won’t let you “the software makes us go through it this way”, or “it’s much easier to set the theme/vibe of the house this way”. Go along with it. But make it clear that you have a strict budget and you will have to come back and revisit these “nice to haves” after you have completed the kitchen; basically, indicate this will take allot longer… they likely will start with the kitchen. Alternatively, pick want you want and pick the fall-back option from the standard list – jot them down. That way if you go over budget you can say “actually we’ve gone over, can we revert our decision to upgrade the tiles in the second bathroom from “Artic Sand” to “Simple sand” § Issue three: Wanting a turn key property. Above I indicate that the overall increasing in size of property is actually pretty reasonable. However, the amount they charge for extra things is not (~$150 per downlight!! – especially when you know they get them for less than $5); in fairness – this is how they make a profit. Consider what you can do later. There are plenty of people who have paid for downlights later. - Consider Orientation of your house o Allot of the designs for the Project builders are for new housing estates – where they have orientated the streets for the best orientation of the houses. All of the designs will have the garages on one side etc. Make sure you place your living areas in the northern side etc. This will save you on running costs but also provide natural light. You may have found a great design – but it simply might not be great on your block. - Understand the Single Dwelling Act for your area (Canberra rules varies – new suburb vs old ones). Do not think the sales people for the Big Project Builders know what they are talking about (some do; however, some were selling cars three weeks prior to selling you a house..). The smaller project builders likely do. o Setbacks § Front, back, sides – then second level – principle building zone etc o Plot Ratio o Open areas o Access for services - Discounts: o Don’t be rushed by “We have these offer for 60k” expires next week… sign now… There is always a deal on with these companies, next week it will something else. o Tender presentation § There will be mistakes, go through it in detail, take it away with you. Set aside time to look at it multiple times. Review each window, everything you discussed previously with the sales person. Room dimensions, storage, the special faced is listed etc) § Do not sign it on that day. § Consider legal review. § Go into sign and then do your last negotiation (few extra power points etc) o Negotiate – these people are in sales, they will negotiate. § Don’t start this yourself – you probably won’t need to - they’ll probably try and “throw it in” “talk to the manager about the luxury package for 10k for free”. They are not doing this because they like you, want to be nice, they are literally getting you to do it to sign. § Once you’ve seen them a few times, you get the plans pretty much finalised, you are willing to sign, they’ve upgraded your appliances to Miele, added the “luxury package” for free as “they convinced the manager for you” (The further you go through this process, the more time you take up of the sales person, the more power you have – up until you sign); id still ask for something else. At this point they have sunk time and money into you – they won’t walk away for a few extra thousand in packages/deals. If there are no more packages – go specific (“I will sign today if you also throw in another 10 downlights, 10 double Power Points, one extra outdoor power point and one additional outside tap”). What’s the worst that can happen? No? IF you’re still happy you can sign, I personally would walk away and wait for them to call me (I doubt you’d make it to the car). Worst case you come back the next day and sign. Do not worry about ruining your relationship – you will never see this sales person again; and once you sign they get a commission anyway. § Lastly: if you really want to up your barging power – make them think you’re going to spend more in the design studio than you actually will. · If an average person will spend 10k on electrical, ask for 20k allowance; joinery 30k; nope you want 75k allowance. · Upping your allowance will increase the tender; however wont lock you into spending it. The manger may now be more willing to offer you more things to throw it in, as they think you’re going to drop 100k more than the average person in the design studio (where they really make the money). But as soon as you’ve signed, you’re in contract, they can’t remove the things they’ve added in, but you don’t have to use all/any of your allowances; plus you won’t see any of those people again. - Display villages o Visit a bunch – mainly for ideas (take a measuring tape – you can also ask them for the floor plans – they will give you the actual plans with all the dimensions if you ask nice enough (say that other builder have and it enables you to property measure the spaces at home with your furniture… they’ll print it, say something about copyright and then give it to you in A3 – if they print it correctly 1cm=1m 😊): § Bedroom sizes/layouts § Ensuite layouts § Kitchen layouts: · whether you like the idea of a laundry through the WIP (I personally can’t see myself dragging my bedroom sheets past the rice and pasta to get to the washing machine; ad would be considered about moisture) · Island size · Number of ovens · Butler’s pantry vs pantry (I personally can’t ever see myself washing dishes or preparing Hors d'oeuvres in a small pantry – but some people love it) · Block size vs garden space – I ended up measuring the backyards of the properties to understand/visualise how much space we would have if we sat that design on our block. § Living areas – tv, couch, table locations etc § Storage § Types of flooring/colours o Some of the homes were great, others seemed good until you visualised getting up from the couch to get a glass of water; having friends over etc. - Building certifier: o I can’t remember if it was Rawson’s or McDonald Jones but one doesn’t allow you to provide your own building certifier – which I think is illegal. o If a sales person says you can’t provide your own independent certifier – ask them to put that in an email for you – I doubt they will. Contact their head office “James from Googong said “…” is this correct IAW national standards and building laws etc” - Don’t believe online reviews – sooo many bots and fake reviews (especially reviews after talking to the sales people only… these people haven’t signed a contract let alone paid money or poured the slab – yet they’re saying they give the company 5 stars... They have forgotten they are hiring a company to build a house not sell a glossy brochure). Facebook – there is a building with Rawson’s FB community site and one for McDonald Jones. This is where people share experiences and designs; ask each other for tips and guidance (I would recommend joining both). Reply Reply Like Share More Reply Like Share More Reply Like Share More 01 Oct 2019 63 ACT Loyal Member Re: What will 450k get me? 13Feb 06, 2021 9:23 pm Joyful63 Josh22 ...formatting didn't come accross for word /quote] All such excellent advice Josh22. Thanks so much for going to all the effort to share it. I hope you are now happily enjoying your new home. Haha hopefully start building in a few months - when you add up an architect, engineers, council approval, energy assessment, interior designer - suddenly 12 months have gone by! (Which is good because you’re saving money that whole time) Best of luck! Reply Reply Like Share More Reply Like Share More Reply Like Share More 26 May 2020 19 Junior Member Re: What will 450k get me? 16Feb 15, 2021 8:03 pm I’m building with S&H and thought you might be with them as well. Are you building a two story Avondale with Hampton Facade? We just stared the ground prep work and the slab is expected to be laid next week. Reply Reply Like Share More Reply Like Share More 29 Apr 2021 6 NSW Junior Member Re: What will 450k get me? 18Apr 30, 2021 12:02 am Josh22 Joyful63 Josh22 ...formatting didn't come accross for word /quote] All such excellent advice Josh22. Thanks so much for going to all the effort to share it. I hope you are now happily enjoying your new home. Haha hopefully start building in a few months - when you add up an architect, engineers, council approval, energy assessment, interior designer - suddenly 12 months have gone by! (Which is good because you’re saving money that whole time) Best of luck! Hi Josh, thank you for the advice. I learned so much. I have had an appointment with Achieve homes. Have you heard about them? they quoted us far lower compared to GJ gardner and few other builders. I think its too good to be true. 2 storey, 230m2 living area. with a lot of upgrades. come up around 490k. Reply Sign in or Join to reply to this Topic End
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