Building quality volume vs custom builder

rjbhai02 · Mar 05, 2019 10:28 am

Hi All,

Could anyone please clarify if there is much quality difference from one volume builder to another or to custom builder.
I inspected few houses being constructed by Simonds, burbank, denis family and Carlisle and one custom builder.

I saw slab stage and frame stage.

I could see slab height and material same in each house.
Frame material was also almost same so was their fitting.

I asked workers who were doing slabs and they told they have their own company and these builders hire them to do slab so say they work for metricon and also for burbank with same quality.

Even the bricks and windows glasses were of same company everywhere so wonder why price vary so much between them and if there is any drawback of custom builder quality, if someone can please highlight.

thanks

Forg · Mar 05, 2019 10:59 am

There is no single answer to your question, unfortunately.

Some upmarket small-scale builders are brilliant, you'll get a result HEAPS better than you'd ever get with any volume builder. Yet there are plenty of small-scale builders that aren't very good at all.

Most of the cheapest volume builders are the cheapest because they don't do some things quite as well as others. But I'm surprised if you are seeing major price differences between volume builders if you're looking at house designs that are very similar & using very similar materials; our experience was the opposite, every builder publishes different inclusions but by the time you make two designs similar to each other & had kitchens/bathrooms/flooring/cabinetry/etc spec'd to the same levels we found the prices were always very close.

The reality is that the quality of the home comes down to the quality of the individual tradespeople doing the work, and the quality of the site manager. Those people seem to move between large builders, I don't see how you can judge a volume builder based on the experience someone had even only a year ago.

Really the only thing that I think is fair to judge with builders over time is how they deal with problems. This is part of the culture within the builder's organisation, and how they treat customers. If it's never a problem to get something fixed that's brilliant & IMHO it's the best you can hope for.

rjbhai02 · Mar 05, 2019 11:09 am

just to clarify i could see some 10-15k price difference between custom(small) and volume builder some when i went initially were quoting 20k higher,
with my experience we need coupe of qoutes so that we can negotiate with them before finalizing.

Joker · Mar 05, 2019 11:13 am

Good advice from forg,you always check your chosen builders actual builds in your area,if your seeing vastly different pricing ,it's that you may only be checking size or even just four beds with four beds,facades, how boxy the design is, basic roof against more designer roof, volume homes generally will be much more boxy with basic roof has this is a much cheaper way to build,also check structural components of home,custom homes tend to build above the minimum standards .

alexp79 · Mar 05, 2019 11:17 am

20K is nothing comparing to the overall cost of your house and I won't be worrying about difference at all.

Volume builders build project homes where only minimum modifications are allowed.

Custom builders build custom homes which are usually architecturally designed to closely match the owners requirements (and therefore it takes more time to build such house properly).

For example, if you want to build a non-standard (e.g. not a framed house, ICF or double brick or AAC) home, your only choice will be to use a custom builder.

How many significant issues builders are having during different build stages and, more importantly, post build and how reactive and quickly they address/resolve them is one of the most important factors for selection.

Small builders often go broke too, so need to make sure he has enough money on the account to build your dream home.

rjbhai02 · Mar 05, 2019 11:34 am

alexp79

20K is nothing comparing to the overall cost of your house and I won't be worrying about difference at all.

Volume builders build project homes where only minimum modifications are allowed.

Custom builders build custom homes which are usually architecturally designed to closely match the owners requirements (and therefore it takes more time to build such house properly).

For example, if you want to build a non-standard (e.g. not a framed house, ICF or double brick or AAC) home, your only choice will be to use a custom builder.

How many significant issues builders are having during different build stages and, more importantly, post build and how reactive and quickly they address/resolve them is one of the most important factors for selection.

Small builders often go broke too, so need to make sure he has enough money on the account to build your dream home.

18-19sqm house anyway my original query is more about quality variation of say building materials etc

brokenstick · Mar 05, 2019 11:58 am

As said above, from my experience volume builders use subcontractors for just about everything, so the quality varies depending on who is doing the actual work (or they are getting their apprentice to do it). Some are really good and some are bad. The measure is how in tune your site supervisor is (obviously he can't be there all the time watching them working) and willing to deal with issues.
I think it also depends on how involved you are with the build. I visit my site just about every day and I think my SS is well aware that if there is substandard work I will notice it and let him know .

HowardH · Mar 05, 2019 12:56 pm

quality control is very hard to control for volume builders, they use so many contractors per stage which is why there are usual so many stuff ups out on site eg. one contractor will start painting the house and in a few days another will take their place .etc

supervisors also look after more than 15 homes at a time so things could be missed easily not to mention most would rather sweep things under the rug to avoid delaying the project

gogo65 · Mar 05, 2019 1:02 pm

I know lots of project builders use 70mm frame whereas most custom builders will use 90mm, they have smaller gaps between timbers etc(sorry not sure on the correct words), lots of custom builders build there frame on site rather than pre fab, ensures that walls are more accurate/plumb etc.
Custom builders tend to use high quality fit outs with sinks taps toilets etc.
In saying that 20k on top of a project builder price is likely not a high end custom builder.
Most project builders work around $1000-$1800sqm a quality custom builder would be upwards of $2500sqm.
Most of the really good tradies work for custom builders as they get paid significantly more, for project homes they work on volume, the more homes they do the more they get paid hence quality can be lacking.
I’ve built two project homes one custom and about to embark on my second custom, there was a huge difference in quality between homes.

Joker · Mar 05, 2019 1:14 pm

gogo65

I know lots of project builders use 70mm frame whereas most custom builders will use 90mm, they have smaller gaps between timbers etc(sorry not sure on the correct words), lots of custom builders build there frame on site rather than pre fab, ensures that walls are more accurate/plumb etc.
Custom builders tend to use high quality fit outs with sinks taps toilets etc.
In saying that 20k on top of a project builder price is likely not a high end custom builder.
Most project builders work around $1000-$1800sqm a quality custom builder would be upwards of $2500sqm.
Most of the really good tradies work for custom builders as they get paid significantly more, for project homes they work on volume, the more homes they do the more they get paid hence quality can be lacking.
I’ve built two project homes one custom and about to embark on my second custom, there was a huge difference in quality between homes.

Spot on,I went above minimum standards on pretty much everything, used more wood which my carpenter and myself inspected before loading truck, double bricked most of the garage and quite a bit of the rest,you could see big time my frames extra strength and quality against another build down the hill, most new first time builders think quality is only what the eye sees,don't give the hidden structure a seconds thought apart from a slab, unfortunately find out too late,it's almost impossible to go back and rectify.

rjbhai02 · Mar 05, 2019 3:59 pm

attching few images of custom vs project
it looked same frame material even for few volume builders i even found custom one heavier

not sure if it is 90mm or 70mm, its my first home so have limited knowledge

v Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅

volumeBuilder1

Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅
custome builder window

Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅

customebuilder slab

Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅

volumeBuilder2

Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅

customebuilder frame

darb74 · Mar 05, 2019 7:57 pm

We can probably comment a bit on this topic, as we went with a fairly big name volume builder for our first build 10 years ago. This time around we are building with a smaller local builder, but they still do a few homes with 2 site supervisors on the books and a construction manager overseeing everything. So not sure I would call them technically 'custom', but certainly smaller and mostly just building locally. They have said though that many of the builds are architect designed custom projects.

We are only just starting construction now, but the main differences we have noticed to date include:

Importantly for us, they allow good site access and to some degree their tradies as well.
Some of the trades are actually staff (eg. concreters and joinery)
Less sales pressure to upgrade heaps of stuff
Happy to make changes so you get a home that suits your site and requirements
Won't necessarily charge variation fees for minor changes along the way
Subbies appear loyal and happy....some have even built their own homes through them
Supervisors don't have nearly as many houses as the bigger mobs (our first build SS had around 25 builds going at a time!)
Quality in terms of materials and structure/finish seems better overall
Importantly when you speak to past clients, they generally will say they would build with them again.

I have heard they pay their subbies a bit more than the larger builders, but my impression is that it's not that much more. Maybe for example a few more cents per brick or an extra day or two for painters and chippes to get their jobs done etc.

One last thing that I reckon separates the good from 'less good' builders! is how well organised all the stages and delivery of materials is. So far I am fairly impressed, for example on many other volume builder sites I notice windows arrived with the frame. Whereas our window people liaise fairly closely with our SS to ensure windows are delivered when they are needed etc.

Forg · Mar 06, 2019 8:46 am

(darb74

One last thing that I reckon separates the good from 'less good' builders! is how well organised all the stages and delivery of materials is. So far I am fairly impressed, for example on many other volume builder sites I notice windows arrived with the frame. Whereas our window people liaise fairly closely with our SS to ensure windows are delivered when they are needed etc.

This last bit is very interesting … we had spec'd ~$75k's worth of anodised commercial-quality thermally-broken double-glazed aluminium doors & windows & screens, and they were one of the first things to turn-up to the mud-pit onsite. Filling with grit, dirt; blood & guts & grease off the rod. Then they decided it'd be cheaper (for them) for their simian subbies to install the windows rather than the experienced window supplier - the big three-pane slider out to the alfresco still scrapes, it's not possible to fix it without pulling it & completely reinstalling it (which we should have pushed for them to do - but by then we were a bit over it & didn't care, it has no functional nor longevity downsides as it is).

That's a project builder, albeit one that had no problems with adjustments to designs (our house is a totally custom upstairs where only the staircase remains from the original, with the downstairs being swapped-and-changed modules from 3 separate designs of theirs and a custom façade). Now we spent $700k with them, probably about $750k in total once we'd landscaped (did most of that ourselves except of course concreting), and the cheapest custom/bespoke builder quote for it all finished was ~$1.2m.

Our housemate grew up with a husband & wide in Newcastle who are builders, and our housemate said that her friends would never ever hand over the keys to a house in as grotty a state as ours was (eg. the whole house was tiled before painting & the painters thought they were too good to need dropsheets - builder "fixes" it by calling in Jim's Cleaning who don't do anything much more than upending a bucket of soapy water onto the floor hence warping the bottom of the doors - a mop ain't going to remove white paint specs from textured ark-coloured tiles - and don't get me STARTED on the use of caustic cleaners on stainless drawer/cupboard handles & appliances and not wiping it off properly).

*edit*
I guess I should state, for those playing at home; all the problems we had were to do with choosing something that wasn't standard. The builder didn't cope with variations from the norm very well. Of course we didn't even know some of those weren't normal; eg. the reason the tiles went down before painting was because we'd requested some deep kitchen drawers which expose the floor underneath - so they had to tile before they could kitchen. Same with the windows/doors, most people are happy for all their heat to leak out in winter & to run the aircon 24x7 in summer so go for cheap windows - which they would've known how to install.

brokenstick · Mar 06, 2019 9:58 am

I think it also depends on your mindset. By going with a volume builder and saving several hundred thousand dollars, I think subconsciously my expectations were lowered somewhat. I have had to compromise in several areas from design choices to accepting work that i could have done better myself. Our builder was happy to customise during the design, but it was difficult, always having to wait for information and pricing, and answers to questions - I think we just got design fatigue and accepted some of the standard choices just so we could get moving. Maybe that was their intention

The same goes for the with the build - there were some things we would have liked to change once they had started. For example, after the framing was started we saw that we wanted to make a window bigger, and move another one, but it was all too hard to go though their change process and delay the build, even though the actual work required would have been quite simple. Even adding extra powerpoints was a real pain. I am sure these changed would have been easy with a small custom builder.

Then again on the plus side, having chosen all your colors, fixtures and finishes in one place before the build starts has made things easier. We spent several days in their color center, but having everything in one place and knowing that being able to compare and contrast was good. Friends who built with a custom builder were constantly being called asking for decisions on things and then having to rush out to shops to choose something. (eg the tiler is about to start - what color grout do you want on the splashback, there are 100 to choose from, I need a decision in the next hour...)

Joker · Mar 06, 2019 12:58 pm

I went fully custom with a pm owner building, my home ended up about 5 percent more than a sisters volume build home, the volume builder couldn't build mine to anywhere near the quality I got and if they could would of cost 300-400 thousand more,a quote for my front porch was around the 100,000 mark including 28 steps of merbau 4 metres wide with quite a large amount of stone work involved and a concreted room underneath on strip footings, ended up getting all done for ,50,000 with boral bending over to offer us a 35% discount on our chosen stone after we said , too expensive , boral rung us with the offer without us asking one week later,key was a knowledgeable pm with great people skills.

Small Minds · Apr 12, 2019 10:42 am

rjbhai02

Hi All,

Could anyone please clarify if there is much quality difference from one volume builder to another or to custom builder.
I inspected few houses being constructed by Simonds, burbank, denis family and Carlisle and one custom builder.

I saw slab stage and frame stage.

I could see slab height and material same in each house.
Frame material was also almost same so was their fitting.

I asked workers who were doing slabs and they told they have their own company and these builders hire them to do slab so say they work for metricon and also for burbank with same quality.

Even the bricks and windows glasses were of same company everywhere so wonder why price vary so much between them and if there is any drawback of custom builder quality, if someone can please highlight.

thanks

Under the laws of Australia, the home owner is 100% responsible for the house being built in a compliant manner. Not the builder. Not the Surveyor. You the Home owner. No matter what happens on site, if there is a defect, the home owner is responsible under the Australian Legislation. The home owner contracted the builder. The home owner contracts the surveyor.

Sometimes builders don’t like being told that they are wrong and that they need to fix something. With the increase in Private Inspectors, builders seek ways to keep them off site.

Builders will use all manner of behind the scene processes to cut cost of place special conditions in a contract to try and restrict the home owners’ rights. Before you fall in love with the design, ask for a standard copy of the contract and a standard copy of the specifications. Don’t accept a brochure. You want what you are going to sign. If they don’t give it to you, then alarm bells should be ringing. Watch out for smooth talkers. They are great and diverting you away from what you want.

One of the biggest issues is builders placing terms into the contract to stop you from using who you want as a private inspector. The law states that you can use anybody as per the Building Acts. The builder cannot in most cases restrict you. The Private inspector works for you. Not the Builder. Hence the builder has no control over them.

Another is to put specifications out that are not equal to the Australian Standards. Once you commit to the design and go through the colour selections and all of the other processes, you are emotionally and time committed. At this point, generally 3 to 6 months into the process, the builder presents the contract and specifications that have all of these hidden clauses.

Pressure is applied at that time to sign on the day or you will lose such and such a bonus. Do not sign anything that has not been checked by a lawyer of your choosing.

The second a builder starts talking about special conditions or you have a large amount of specifications that have building diagrams and clauses, seek the services of a professional construction lawyer immediately. If you sign the documents, you may have given away your rights to have the home built in a manner that is compliant with the Australian Standards. Remember it is your obligation to have the home built to the requirements of the National Construction Code. Not the builders or the Surveyors.

As an example, some builders will seek to restrict your rights to use a private inspector. Others will insert what they call Performance Solutions. Or they may call them special building processes.

This warning is given to all as a way of assisting you. Deal with a quality builder that has the runs on the board. Stay away from those that seek to hide behind clauses and conditions. Research the internet and see who is doing what in the contracts. Listen to them as they have had the heart break. Remember, just because it looks good does not make a house complaint. If it comes with conditions that are outside of the normal, then you are more than likely being suckered in.

Marcs · Apr 13, 2019 2:22 pm

Small Minds

rjbhai02

Hi All,

Could anyone please clarify if there is much quality difference from one volume builder to another or to custom builder.
I inspected few houses being constructed by Simonds, burbank, denis family and Carlisle and one custom builder.

I saw slab stage and frame stage.

I could see slab height and material same in each house.
Frame material was also almost same so was their fitting.

I asked workers who were doing slabs and they told they have their own company and these builders hire them to do slab so say they work for metricon and also for burbank with same quality.

Even the bricks and windows glasses were of same company everywhere so wonder why price vary so much between them and if there is any drawback of custom builder quality, if someone can please highlight.

thanks

Under the laws of Australia, the home owner is 100% responsible for the house being built in a compliant manner. Not the builder. Not the Surveyor. You the Home owner. No matter what happens on site, if there is a defect, the home owner is responsible under the Australian Legislation. The home owner contracted the builder. The home owner contracts the surveyor.

Sometimes builders don’t like being told that they are wrong and that they need to fix something. With the increase in Private Inspectors, builders seek ways to keep them off site.

Builders will use all manner of behind the scene processes to cut cost of place special conditions in a contract to try and restrict the home owners’ rights. Before you fall in love with the design, ask for a standard copy of the contract and a standard copy of the specifications. Don’t accept a brochure. You want what you are going to sign. If they don’t give it to you, then alarm bells should be ringing. Watch out for smooth talkers. They are great and diverting you away from what you want.

One of the biggest issues is builders placing terms into the contract to stop you from using who you want as a private inspector. The law states that you can use anybody as per the Building Acts. The builder cannot in most cases restrict you. The Private inspector works for you. Not the Builder. Hence the builder has no control over them.

Another is to put specifications out that are not equal to the Australian Standards. Once you commit to the design and go through the colour selections and all of the other processes, you are emotionally and time committed. At this point, generally 3 to 6 months into the process, the builder presents the contract and specifications that have all of these hidden clauses.

Pressure is applied at that time to sign on the day or you will lose such and such a bonus. Do not sign anything that has not been checked by a lawyer of your choosing.

The second a builder starts talking about special conditions or you have a large amount of specifications that have building diagrams and clauses, seek the services of a professional construction lawyer immediately. If you sign the documents, you may have given away your rights to have the home built in a manner that is compliant with the Australian Standards. Remember it is your obligation to have the home built to the requirements of the National Construction Code. Not the builders or the Surveyors.

As an example, some builders will seek to restrict your rights to use a private inspector. Others will insert what they call Performance Solutions. Or they may call them special building processes.

This warning is given to all as a way of assisting you. Deal with a quality builder that has the runs on the board. Stay away from those that seek to hide behind clauses and conditions. Research the internet and see who is doing what in the contracts. Listen to them as they have had the heart break. Remember, just because it looks good does not make a house complaint. If it comes with conditions that are outside of the normal, then you are more than likely being suckered in.

With respect, your comments in respect to a home owner's legal rights and obligations at law are misguided.

In NSW, residential building is regulated under the Home Building Act (the HBA). The HBA contains warranties which are implied into all residential building contracts and cannot be circumvented (or "given away"). Amongst those warranties is an implied obligation that the dwelling will be fit for purpose and be constructed in accordance with all laws (and this includes the BCA / NCC). If you engage a builder, they are to ensure the dwelling is compliant. They must rectify any defects in their work.

All states and territories have similar legislative rights. I know there is a general sentiment that the consumer has limited rights against the builder, however its not as grim as people suspect. If you have issues with a builder, seek professional legal advice - even if you think you've fallen foul of a horribly one sided contract.

Small Minds · Apr 14, 2019 10:26 am

Marcs

Small Minds

rjbhai02

Hi All,

Could anyone please clarify if there is much quality difference from one volume builder to another or to custom builder.
I inspected few houses being constructed by Simonds, burbank, denis family and Carlisle and one custom builder.

I saw slab stage and frame stage.

I could see slab height and material same in each house.
Frame material was also almost same so was their fitting.

I asked workers who were doing slabs and they told they have their own company and these builders hire them to do slab so say they work for metricon and also for burbank with same quality.

Even the bricks and windows glasses were of same company everywhere so wonder why price vary so much between them and if there is any drawback of custom builder quality, if someone can please highlight.

thanks

Under the laws of Australia, the home owner is 100% responsible for the house being built in a compliant manner. Not the builder. Not the Surveyor. You the Home owner. No matter what happens on site, if there is a defect, the home owner is responsible under the Australian Legislation. The home owner contracted the builder. The home owner contracts the surveyor.

Sometimes builders don’t like being told that they are wrong and that they need to fix something. With the increase in Private Inspectors, builders seek ways to keep them off site.

Builders will use all manner of behind the scene processes to cut cost of place special conditions in a contract to try and restrict the home owners’ rights. Before you fall in love with the design, ask for a standard copy of the contract and a standard copy of the specifications. Don’t accept a brochure. You want what you are going to sign. If they don’t give it to you, then alarm bells should be ringing. Watch out for smooth talkers. They are great and diverting you away from what you want.

One of the biggest issues is builders placing terms into the contract to stop you from using who you want as a private inspector. The law states that you can use anybody as per the Building Acts. The builder cannot in most cases restrict you. The Private inspector works for you. Not the Builder. Hence the builder has no control over them.

Another is to put specifications out that are not equal to the Australian Standards. Once you commit to the design and go through the colour selections and all of the other processes, you are emotionally and time committed. At this point, generally 3 to 6 months into the process, the builder presents the contract and specifications that have all of these hidden clauses.

Pressure is applied at that time to sign on the day or you will lose such and such a bonus. Do not sign anything that has not been checked by a lawyer of your choosing.

The second a builder starts talking about special conditions or you have a large amount of specifications that have building diagrams and clauses, seek the services of a professional construction lawyer immediately. If you sign the documents, you may have given away your rights to have the home built in a manner that is compliant with the Australian Standards. Remember it is your obligation to have the home built to the requirements of the National Construction Code. Not the builders or the Surveyors.

As an example, some builders will seek to restrict your rights to use a private inspector. Others will insert what they call Performance Solutions. Or they may call them special building processes.

This warning is given to all as a way of assisting you. Deal with a quality builder that has the runs on the board. Stay away from those that seek to hide behind clauses and conditions. Research the internet and see who is doing what in the contracts. Listen to them as they have had the heart break. Remember, just because it looks good does not make a house complaint. If it comes with conditions that are outside of the normal, then you are more than likely being suckered in.

With respect, your comments in respect to a home owner's legal rights and obligations at law are misguided.

In NSW, residential building is regulated under the Home Building Act (the HBA). The HBA contains warranties which are implied into all residential building contracts and cannot be circumvented (or "given away"). Amongst those warranties is an implied obligation that the dwelling will be fit for purpose and be constructed in accordance with all laws (and this includes the BCA / NCC). If you engage a builder, they are to ensure the dwelling is compliant. They must rectify any defects in their work.

All states and territories have similar legislative rights. I know there is a general sentiment that the consumer has limited rights against the builder, however its not as grim as people suspect. If you have issues with a builder, seek professional legal advice - even if you think you've fallen foul of a horribly one sided contract.

Marc.

Then what you are saying is if the home owner accepts the dwelling and moves in, based on your asserting, and then for some reason a government authority such as the local council finds a fault, then under your suggestion that authority would place orders against the builder......

No. The orders are placed against the home owner. The home owner is the one that receives all orders and then passes them to a builder and if the builder fails to fix, then home owner then has to take legal action for remedy.

Unless you have special laws in NSW, this is the reason for posting my comments. The home owner is the obligated party to ensure that the dwelling is built in accordance with the Rules.

Marcs · Apr 15, 2019 4:39 pm

Small Minds

Marc.

Then what you are saying is if the home owner accepts the dwelling and moves in, based on your asserting, and then for some reason a government authority such as the local council finds a fault, then under your suggestion that authority would place orders against the builder......

No. The orders are placed against the home owner. The home owner is the one that receives all orders and then passes them to a builder and if the builder fails to fix, then home owner then has to take legal action for remedy.

Unless you have special laws in NSW, this is the reason for posting my comments. The home owner is the obligated party to ensure that the dwelling is built in accordance with the Rules.

While we are digressing a little, the home owner shouldn't accept the dwelling without either an occupation certificate or all certificates required to issue an OC. If an OC has been issued, then the risk of a local council issuing an order against your property will be practically non-existent.

Back on topic, logically, the owner of any real or personal property will always be the one who has to deal with the faults in that property - its not different if its a washing machine or a house (i.e. if you buy a washing machine and it breaks, you have to go back to the retailer / manufacturer, and if they don't assist, make a compliant to fair trading / tribunal etc for a resolution). If a home owner pays for a service and its not performed in accordance with law, the party engaged to perform that service has to rectify. Case law in this area hasn't been kind to builders / surveyors / engineers who try to shift responsibility onto the home owner.

In most instances, a home owner who engages a volume builder simply wont know what the "Rules" are - hence there are legislative instruments and HWI to protect them. Sure these instruments can go further, but they do a pretty good job when used correctly. While I agree that a home owner should learn as much as possible about the process of home building, my view is that the message for anyone looking to build is not "get to know the rules", but should be "get to know your rights".

Small Minds · Apr 15, 2019 5:03 pm

Marcs,

Your whole premise is based on the home owner not accepting the dwelling without fault. How would they know? And that is the core issue that I'm highlighting.

The home owners must obtain assist from a professional in the field to ensure that their home is built in accordance with the rules. Unfortunately, most don't bother and then they end up in QCAT or VCAT or NCAT.

My whole post is to assist and highlight this issue.