Clause in contract about independent inspections

brokenstick · Nov 29, 2017 7:43 am

My builder has told me that I am "welcome" to use an independent builder inspector and many of their other customers do, however when going though the draft contract I spotted the below clause tucked away.....

Is this normal ?? Seems like a red flag to me

In the event the Client elects to engage an external inspector during a stage
of the build the contract completion date will extended by the duration of 2
weeks for each report provided to the business.

IamSAM · Nov 29, 2017 8:15 am

Well the builder will require some time to validate the independent report and respond to each item which may require rework to fix the issue or convince you that the work done is as per acceptable standards/contract. Two weeks per report sounds reasonable, however much depends upon content of the reports.

bank · Nov 29, 2017 9:03 am

There was nothing like that in our contract. They shouldn't receive any additional time to read the report or rectify defects. They should be building the house to a reasonable standard in the first place. They're in a round a bout way saying if we have to fix your house up to meet the standards we'll need another 8 weeks! Seems ridiculous to me. It doesn't take a supervisor 2 weeks to read a report and any action required should be on their time.

brokenstick · Nov 29, 2017 9:10 am

bank

There was nothing like that in our contract. They shouldn't receive any additional time to read the report or rectify defects. They should be building the house to a reasonable standard in the first place. They're in a round a bout way saying if we have to fix your house up to meet the standards we'll need another 8 weeks! Seems ridiculous to me. It doesn't take a supervisor 2 weeks to read a report and any action required should be on their time.

Yes those were my thoughts exactly, (ie what are they worried about, build it properly first time and there won't be any defects), but just wanted to do a bit of homework before I take it up with them

SaveH2O · Nov 29, 2017 6:08 pm

brokenstick

My builder

And just who is this builder?

SaveH2O · Nov 29, 2017 6:16 pm

@ brokenstick,

I have just read one of your other posts and you posted there that the builder told you that you have to use their surveyor. I have also read that you are in Victoria. Is the previous builder you posted about and the one currently under discussion one and the same?

brokenstick · Nov 29, 2017 6:43 pm

SaveH2O

@ brokenstick,

I have just read one of your other posts and you posted there that the builder told you that you have to use their surveyor. I have also read that you are in Victoria. Is the previous builder you posted about and the one currently under discussion one and the same?

Yes the same builder. They said legally it is my choice but I have to "select" their surveyor, however I am welcome to use my own building inspector (they are different things).
I am not too concerned about the surveyor, as Group 4 are a large company who seem to be quite reputable.
Of concern is the clause about the inspector. I asked for clarification and they said when I submit a report they will stop work for 2 week whilst they review it. I said that if they fail to build to known standards and have to rectify it should not be at my penalty

SaveH2O · Nov 29, 2017 6:53 pm

You said that it was a draft contract, have you signed with them?

SaveH2O · Nov 29, 2017 7:17 pm

I was talking to a senior person in the VBA a few weeks ago about the VBA being unable to stop umbrageous coercion used to erode a new home buyer's rights such as those you have mentioned. It is not a good situation that appears to be coming more common and certainly a worry for you so soon along your journey.

Two weeks to review a defects report? How many defects do they expect to be pulled up on? Two weeks is really an admittance of a lack of confidence in the company being able to deliver a quality product built to regulation.

I hope that building_expert sees your post and gives his long standing industry experienced opinion.

As a matter of interest, do you know how many constructions the builder tasks their SS to manage? The quality of your build will largely depend on the quality of the SS and his workload.

brokenstick · Nov 30, 2017 7:18 am

Thanks SaveH2O, appreciate the responses and I agree with you points. No I haven't signed yet.

In general we have very happy with this builder and they have been pleasant to deal with. We are doing a KDR with some specific requirements - the bottom line is that we really like their design and they they have been flexible in accommodating our needs, something other builders have not been willing to do

But there are some things in their processes that do not appear logical to me, and a few red flags like this that are causing me to doubt. I am the type of person that goes through everything with a fine tooth comb and asks a lot of questions, and and I am starting to get the feeling they are not used to this level of scrutiny....

SaveH2O · Nov 30, 2017 8:05 am

All builders try to make a good impression prior to the client signing, it's like being on a first date.

Re your KDR, it is accepted by industry professionals that it should be mandated for the site moisture levels to be taken and equalised within a desired range prior to commencement of construction but this is not always done. The moisture is applied with sprinklers and a forum search using some key words like KDR, moisture, sprinkler etc will bring up some practical experiences and test counts about this. Melbourne is set to cop a deluge over the next few days and so the site will be rehydrated to some extent anyway but just wondering whether this important facet has also been discussed with you.

This forum is very lucky to have forum member 'insider' helping others with his professional advice and he is the person with expertise in this very important consideration.

building-expert · Nov 30, 2017 8:15 am

Yes, we are entering new phase brought about by ineptitude and unwillingness of our regulatory system to tackle and crunch builders that are getting out of line more and more.

1 Some large and medium tier builders are using their market power to refuse negotiations on terms of contract that are
unfair and unconscionable.

2 I am seeing more and more of what used to be builder's risk shoved on to the owners

3 Builders are circumventing owners appointing their own building surveyors with undue pressure.

I have seen a special condition which says that builder will not necessarily produce a display home standard when in fact this is in direct contradiction of the DBCA 1995.

Our building control is a scam, our consumer protection is a scam. When was the last time builder went to jail for fr@ud? Yet homeowners are regularly defr@uded through systematic pilfering and under delivery.

That's the way it is and if you have no one in your corner it will be like industrial soccer league 4 (you), playing premier league team(builders). Who is going to score your dollars?

For those who don't know, get a good building consultant to assist you with your build.
For those who should have known better(and there are many) tough luck.

pEast · Nov 30, 2017 8:22 am

building-expert

Yes, we are entering new phase brought about by ineptitude and unwillingness of our regulatory system to tackle and crunch builders that are getting out of line more and more.

1 Some large and medium tier builders are using their market power to refuse negotiations on terms of contract that are
unfair and unconscionable.

2 I am seeing more and more of what used to be builder's risk shoved on to the owners

3 Builders are circumventing owners appointing their own building surveyors with undue pressure.

I have seen a special condition which says that builder will not necessarily produce a display home standard when in fact this is in direct contradiction of the DBCA 1995.

Our building control is a scam, our consumer protection is a scam. When was the last time builder went to jail for fr@ud? Yet homeowners are regularly defr@uded through systematic pilfering and under delivery.

That's the way it is and if you have no one in your corner it will be like industrial soccer league 4 (you), playing premier league team(builders). Who is going to score your dollars?

For those who don't know, get a good building consultant to assist you with your build.
For those who should have known better(and there are many) tough luck.

Agreed - I have recently had a slab poured - we can have inspections privately - but what about the plumbers who do the pipe underground - how do we check that they have done the work correctly - I think that is most important part because a broken pipe here will ruin all the independent inspectors we employ to rectify the structural if the base is getting a lot of water under the slab. No building private inspector company had a answer - the only answer I got was we are not plumbers -
Or take the case of when they put up the plaster - after that Which private inspector will check that the tradies haven't blasted nails through the water / gas pipes - u could have a nail stuck in a gas pipe for years -

pEast · Nov 30, 2017 8:26 am

bank

There was nothing like that in our contract. They shouldn't receive any additional time to read the report or rectify defects. They should be building the house to a reasonable standard in the first place. They're in a round a bout way saying if we have to fix your house up to meet the standards we'll need another 8 weeks! Seems ridiculous to me. It doesn't take a supervisor 2 weeks to read a report and any action required should be on their time.

it takes time because - example your inspector completed the inspection at 1630 - prepared the report for frame stage and sends it to the SS and you the next day - The Framers have already started at another location -
So the SS will need time to arrange for them to come and fix the problems-

rum_home · Nov 30, 2017 8:27 am

SaveH2O

I was talking to a senior person in the VBA a few weeks ago about the VBA being unable to stop umbrageous coercion used to erode a new home buyer's rights such as those you have mentioned. It is not a good situation that appears to be coming more common and certainly a worry for you so soon along your journey.

What was the outcome of that conversation with that senior person?

I'm currently in the 'cold war' phase of my negotiations regarding the appointment of an 'independent' building surveyor with my builder. They are using size and fact that it's not a cost detailed in the base price, but included there and you get not credit for if you choose to use a non-preferred company.

For any 'major' builder they are effectively negotiating a sweet deal with a surveyor that will have their best interest and not the buyers interested, and getting away with it. I'm not sure how this isn't a ACCC/VBA industry crack down. It does allow the industry of surveyors to double dip at the expense of buyers, and I'm sure those getting that benefit don't want to rock that boat.

bank · Nov 30, 2017 8:32 am

pEast

bank

There was nothing like that in our contract. They shouldn't receive any additional time to read the report or rectify defects. They should be building the house to a reasonable standard in the first place. They're in a round a bout way saying if we have to fix your house up to meet the standards we'll need another 8 weeks! Seems ridiculous to me. It doesn't take a supervisor 2 weeks to read a report and any action required should be on their time.

it takes time because - example your inspector completed the inspection at 1630 - prepared the report for frame stage and sends it to the SS and you the next day - The Framers have already started at another location -
So the SS will need time to arrange for them to come and fix the problems-

Yes but it should be their time because they didn't do it properly in the first place.

pEast · Nov 30, 2017 8:39 am

bank

pEast

bank

There was nothing like that in our contract. They shouldn't receive any additional time to read the report or rectify defects. They should be building the house to a reasonable standard in the first place. They're in a round a bout way saying if we have to fix your house up to meet the standards we'll need another 8 weeks! Seems ridiculous to me. It doesn't take a supervisor 2 weeks to read a report and any action required should be on their time.

it takes time because - example your inspector completed the inspection at 1630 - prepared the report for frame stage and sends it to the SS and you the next day - The Framers have already started at another location -
So the SS will need time to arrange for them to come and fix the problems-

Yes but it should be their time because they didn't do it properly in the first place.

unfortunately - that is not the way the process works - when u signed a contract with the builder - u signed a document stating u agree with surveyor your Builder gave u - if the surveyor has passed the frame stage - then the works pointed out by your independent inspector is extra work they are doing for you - U cannot even do much if they decided to continue to the build once it is passed by the surveyor because technically that is all that I needed - you can keep the photos of your private inspector has proof only if defects arise - See if your builder if allow you to appoint your own surveyor ? not happening - it is a bit murky out there - imagine the people who don't employ a private inspector and many many don't

Althom · Nov 30, 2017 8:47 am

They want 2 weeks extra for each report??? Are they saying they believe their work is so bad that there'll be two weeks rework each time your inspector comes in?

brokenstick · Nov 30, 2017 8:52 am

I don't dispute that it will take time for the builder to come and fix issues, esp. if they have to organise their subcontractors to return.

But if they are arguing that I don't need my own inspector, by that logic their own inspectors should be ensuring that any work is to the requisite standard.
If my inspector then picks up something that their inspector missed it should not be my problem and at my penalty

pEast · Nov 30, 2017 8:53 am

Althom

They want 2 weeks extra for each report??? Are they saying they believe their work is so bad that there'll be two weeks rework each time your inspector comes in?

In Victoria - we have a short fall of tradies - especially framers and brick layers - a shortage so much that u may wait more than 1 month before framers turn up