Browse Forums Eco Living Re: Water tank pumps.... 4Sep 23, 2013 10:12 pm The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Water tank pumps.... 5Sep 23, 2013 10:15 pm 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank pumps.... 6Sep 23, 2013 10:29 pm My advice would be avoid Davey. Ours died very quickly and I have replaced it with an Onga which appears to be a much better unit. Re: Water tank pumps.... 7Sep 24, 2013 8:08 am Thanks guys, I've used Onga in the past and had no issues so I guess I'll assume they are still good. Sorry to hear about the water loss on power outage - ouch! that must hurt badly! Surely there's something you can do - some fail switch? Re: Water tank pumps.... 8Sep 24, 2013 9:38 am Sorry snuck I meant we have no water in the house ie can't flush a toilet when we have no power and your right the water set up is original ie 1981 so this is something that we are currently in the throes of looking at <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=62083">viewtopic.php?t=62083</a><!-- l --> Re: Water tank pumps.... 9Sep 24, 2013 4:42 pm AKB I meant we have no water in the house ie can't flush a toilet when we have no power Have you considered either a large pressure tank or a gravity feed system to supply the cistern? As long as the cistern has 1 metre head, it works and it is easy to plumb. I gravity feed to my main toilet for about 8 months of the year and mine works ok down to about a 700 mm head. It saves the pump having thousands of short start/stops every year. You just need to have a low restriction cistern valve and flow path. You can also simply take the top off the cistern and hand fill it if you ever need to top it up. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank pumps.... 10Sep 24, 2013 4:57 pm Thanks SaveH20, we are currently re thinking our entire water system. <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=62083">viewtopic.php?t=62083</a><!-- l --> Re: Water tank pumps.... 11Oct 08, 2013 3:13 pm Hi Guys, The trick is to get the right pumps fit for application. I see some good suggestions. Pumps are expensive to run! So there are a few things you can do: a) Size the pump correctly. Get what you need and nothing you don't. The higher the wattage the more power it is going to use. I would go for a horizontal multistage pump. It will give you great pressure and flow. Please excuse the chart, I'm just showing you the difference in running costs from a quality pump b) A pressure tank can reduce the number of start ups and dramatically reduce the electricity bill. e.g. if the pump is running half as often the cost will be halved and the pump will last much longer. As for the grey water again the same rules apply. Only get what you need but the obvious difference is you can't use a pressure tank with a submersible pump. If it is filling a tank to water the garden get a pump that will fill the tank slower and use less electricity. Just make sure you are using the rated specs (not the specs you see on most websites which is where the pump stalls the water flow) so you don't burn the pump out. Like all things pumps are a compromise performance vs savings. I hope that helps Re: Water tank pumps.... 12Feb 15, 2016 8:43 pm Hi all, I've read a lot of these posts, and I'm still a bit confused about which pumps are good. I suspect that the confusion is due to every situation being different. I did go to the pump store, and they recommended some really expensive davey pumps, but the salesperson seemed pretty disinterested. I was hoping for some advice on my setup, please. I have an underground 10kL concrete water tank, which will flush my toilets, laundry and garden. The house is double storey, with 2 toilets upstairs, 2 toilets downstairs. I'm not sure whether to go for: a) submersible or not b) pressure tank or not Could anyone give me a recommendation for this setup, please? Thanks David Re: Water tank pumps.... 13Mar 01, 2016 1:43 am The following overview should give you a better overall understanding of the requirements and best practice. Underground tanks usually have a submersible pump but any submersible pump must be positioned so that it is clear of the sediment layer. Failure to do this will not only have the pump vacuum the tank's floor and deliver poor quality water to the end fixtures, it will also shorten the pump's life and void the conditions of warranty. Some submersible pumps have an inbuilt stand that allows the pump to draw water from higher up and away from the floor whereas others draw water from the bottom and it is important that the pump's design practicality is noted prior to purchase. External pressure pumps can also draw water from a suburban underground tank but a jet pump has better suction than the common centrifugal pressure pump because a jet pump sacrifices some pumping performance to enhance the suction performance. An external pump will also require a check valve in the suction line so that the pump stays primed. A pressure pump will usually be fitted with an automatic electronic pressure control that turns the pump on and off when demand is detected or ceases. For this reason, the pump’s pressure controller cut in/cut out pressure settings will be factory set to suit the pump and those settings can rarely be altered. An automatic controller also has run dry protection because it will turn the pump off when it detects that there is no water left in the tank. A pump can also be fitted with a manual pressure controller, these are ‘bulletproof’ and the cut in & cut out settings are adjustable. The one disadvantage however is that they do not have run dry protection. Cisterns and washing machines are low flow fixtures with mandated maximum supply flows of 6 lpm and 12 lpm respectively. A very common fault I see is when an oversized pump has been fitted to supply a cistern or laundry. Not only is the pump more expensive, it wastes energy, the low flow rate strangles and can damage the pump plus the pump’s start up can cause water hammer. Cisterns are high use fixtures with a small supply demand as is a washing machines on- off water demand during the rinse cycle. To substantially reduce the number of short start/stops and prolong the pump’s life, a pressure (accumulator) tank can be supplied by the pump. A pressure tank will have either an internal bladder or a diaphragm and the drawdown of water will usually be approximately 30% of the tanks capacity, the rest being air. A 60 litre tank will have a drawdown of approximately 18 litres, this means that while there is water in the pressure tank, the fixture will be supplied by the pressure tank and the pump will not start. As an example, flushing a toilet would normally see the pump start every time to deliver a small amount of water at a low flow rate whereas a 60 litre pressure tank will hold enough water (approximately 18 litres) to supply six half flushes. When the pressure tank near empties and is then refilled, the pump operates with maximum efficiency. Read this ATA link where an Einhell pump with a 20 litre pressure tank was used. The 20 litre tank wouldn't supply quite enough water for two 1/2 flushes but decreasing the pressure in the pressure tank just a little resulted in two 1/2 flushes being serviced, a decrease in pump use from 50% to 66% for 1/2 flushes and a decrease from 0% to 50% for full flushes. http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/15814#post-55964 A pressure tank also eliminates water hammer. Many people get caught out by buying a pump with an electronic pressure switch and then buying a pressure tank and connecting it to the pump. This sounds simple enough but an electronic pressure switch supplied with a pump will be calibrated to work to that respective pump's cut in - cut out requirements. If for example you used a pressure tank that was set at 20 psi, the pressure switch should be set at approximately 22 psi cut in and 40 psi cut out, this way the pump will start before the pressure tank runs out of water and then shut off at 40 psi. If the electronic pressure switch is adjusted to a pump that delivers a head of 50 or 60 psi, the pump will keep running for much longer and will often cycle as it nears the cut off point. Frequent cycling can also burn out the motor as well as wasting energy and stressing the pump. The task then becomes one of either buying a pump with a decent sized pressure tank and finding and fitting a pressure switch to suit the tank's pressure or else buy a pump – pressure tank combo that already has the electronic pressure controller set to work to the tank’s pressure. Pressure tanks also lose pressure and their pressure should be checked annually. This has to be done when the pressure tank is empty (drained). A pressure tank’s pressure is also adjustable and the pressure can be quite high if need be. If a house is off the water grid, a higher pressure setting will result in less pressure fluctuation when showering, for example, the difference between having a cut in – cut out setting of 40-60 psi as opposed to 20-40 psi. It must be remembered here that it takes x4 the head to double the flow rate. If you decide on an external pressure pump and a pressure tank, it can get quite expensive because a 60 litre pressure tank like the Davey currently has a best price of about $210. A quick Google on Get Price however came up with a 50 litre pressure tank for $95. You would adjust the pressure to be the same as the 20 litre tank. Note that this is a temporary link for clearance products...it won't last. https://nightingalecc.com.au/pressure-t ... medium=cpc Probably the best value going would be to buy either an Einhell 550W pressure pump with a 20 litre pressure tank or the 800W Commercial Electric pump with a 20 litre pressure tank. These are sold in Bunnings and Masters for about $260 but the really good value comes from the fact that they come with a 20 litre pressure tank plus a pre pump filter. Both also have 2 year warranties and a full parts back up and so, for under $400, you can get a pump with a pressure controller adjusted to the 20 litre pressure tank plus buy an additional 50 litre pressure tank, 70 litres in total. This will give you about 21 litres draw down. The pump will have an easy life, it is the number of start-stops that a pump has that determines its longevity, poor installation aside. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUz6QlKWRNM For a very good quality pump, have a look at the Grundfos range. http://au.grundfos.com/ You also have to have either an automatic or manual mains water switching device plus check valves when connecting to the house mains water pipe. I always recommend the hydraulically operated automatic Aquasaver. Shop around because the retail price does vary quite a lot. http://www.acquasaver.com.au/ 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank pumps.... 14Mar 07, 2016 9:59 pm Thanks SaveH2O! I think I will buy the Einhell 550W pump with pressure tank from Bunnings. It has gone up in price, to $299, and is discontinued stock, so probably won't be around for too long. I suspect they didn't sell too many of them. Hopefully, this has enough grunt to draw water from an underground water tank for my toilets in a 2 storey house. Now, I've read your posts about a manual switch between mains and tank water. "I have linked a manual and an automatic (but unpowered) switching device below. http://sunshoweronline.com.au/acquasaver-valve http://www.acquasaver.com.au/ http://www.mainrain.com.au/distributors.html http://www.gstore.com.au/aw-main-rain-v ... oilet.html" I can't afford the acquasaver at $400+, so just a manual switch is good enough for me. But, do you know why the mainrain is so expensive for what it is? Over $100+. Am I underestimating the difficulty of switching between the raintank and mains? I thought a basic 3 way valve would be enough? Thanks for you help! Cheers David Re: Water tank pumps.... 15Mar 16, 2016 1:57 pm They probably didn't sell many because people don't know about and/or understand pressure tanks. The MainRain is very neat and that is what you pay for. I personally would look at the price differences (savings) rather than the price itself. Just about everyone is not advised of their many mains water switching device options and they get ripped off as a result. It is money for jam for the unscrupulous. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank pumps.... 16Jun 21, 2016 6:51 am Hi SaveH2O, Thanks for all your help and advice over the journey. Thought I'd let you know how I went! I went for the Einhell 550W pump with pressure tank from Bunnings, and I am super impressed by it (though I have little experience with water pumps). It is really quiet, and doesn't take long to recharge. It turns on after 2 full flushes of the toilet. And gives good pressure to taps in the garden, so I am happy. Fills the toilet cisterns upstairs well. And this is pumping from a 10kL underground water tank. I did buy a mainrain changeover valve, but I will install this a bit later or not at all. My plumber called up the Victorian plumbing auditor about installing a manual changeover valve with a water tank, and the auditor said that I needed a regulator worth a cool $1000 to prevent backflow into the mains system, if the pump goes wrong. So my toilets are only on rainwater at the moment, but with 10kL, this is not a pressing problem in Winter in Melbourne. The 10kL tank is great, because it is such a large volume, all the rubbish from the gutters settles in the bottom of the tank, leaving clear water. I was worried about the water being dirty, because I don't have any First Flush diverters on my downpipes, or gutter guards, but so far, so good. I might have to clean out the bottom of the tank, but that's not a problem, since there is a man-hole cover. I'm going to make up my own one of these waterboys for the hose into the tank. http://www.crystalclearwater.com.au/waterboy/ Behind the water pump, you can see a Sanden Heatpump for my HWS, powered by 5kW Solar Panels on the roof. That thing is whisper quiet, too! http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/akapacker/06%20-%20Install_zpsoyht8miz.jpg Once again SaveH2O, thanks for your expert advice in this misunderstood area. From balancing my catchment area with the correct number of downpipes, to gutter shapes, to water tanks and water pumps, you have been invaluable! Thanks David Re: Water tank pumps.... 17Jun 23, 2016 8:55 pm Hi David, It's always great to get feedback that others can also benefit from. I hope that the pump has a cover that you have only removed to take the photo. If the cover is subject to direct sunlight, just make sure that there are holes for cross ventilation on hot days. The Einhell pump with the 20 litre pressure tank is now $299 at Bunnings which is still a good price but the original $249 was an absolute steal. They have done everything to ensure that the pump has an easy life and I have yet to hear any complaints. akapacker I did buy a mainrain changeover valve, but I will install this a bit later or not at all. My plumber called up the Victorian plumbing auditor about installing a manual changeover valve with a water tank, and the auditor said that I needed a regulator worth a cool $1000 to prevent backflow into the mains system, if the pump goes wrong. So my toilets are only on rainwater at the moment, but with 10kL, this is not a pressing problem in Winter in Melbourne. If the rainwater is diverted to the cistern(s) via a separate pipe, the isolation valve and the air gap is all you need. If rainwater is plumbed into the house mains water pipe, you need a couple of check valves, that is all. A "regulator" generally refers to an electronic controller like you would find on an automatic switching device, it sounds like you have been told that you have to have an electronic switching device fitted to a manual control...which is absurd but I can't think of any other possible explanation. I don't understand how your rainwater is plumbed to the toilet cistern(s) given that the cistern(s) are not supplied by mains water yet. Is it a direct connection via a dedicated rainwater pipe to a second cistern valve as shown in the diagram below? http://www.vba.vic.gov.au/__data/assets ... sterns.pdf Does the water pass through a silt pit before entering the underground tank? It is a good idea to have one, they are inexpensive and easy to fit. http://rainharvesting.com/product/filter-pits/ I don't know how you would go making a floating inlet for an underground tank but if you do, you have to keep the inlet about 200mm under the surface to avoid drawing a free surface vortex that will deliver air to the pump. Not good! 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank pumps.... 18Jul 07, 2016 1:31 pm Thanks SaveH2O! Oops, maybe I had better put a cover on the pump. It's just sitting out in the rain, because I assumed it was weatherproof. Could be a $300 mistake! Doh! Each toilet has its own green rainwater pipe going to it. The pipes all go back to a single point, outside the house, and near the water pump. There is also a mains water point next to the rainwater point, but it is stopped up and unconnected at the moment. Before I build the deck, I will get the plumber back to install the changeover valve, to switch the water to the toilets from the water tank to the mains supply, as well as an isolating valve, to prevent back flow into the mains. Thanks for your help! Cheers David Re: Water tank pumps.... 19Jul 07, 2016 2:06 pm Hi David, It isn't the pump so much, it is the electronic controller that you need to protect but it is still wise to protect the pump. Not all pumps are water proof. What area are you in? There is a water tank manufacturer near me, they also make accessories including pump covers and they sell direct to the public at big savings. If you do connect to the mains water, the plumber will also need to fit a check valve, is this what you meant by "isolating" valve? Did you find out any more about the $1,000 'regulator' you were told you 'had' to have? What size is the tank? I forget...sorry. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank pumps.... 20Jul 12, 2016 6:11 am Hi SaveH2O, I am in Camberwell. I had intended on building a roof over all that equipment at a later date, when I build screening for it. But, it's not hard to chuck a bit of plywood over the top of it now. Thanks for the advice once again! My plumber was awesome and helped me out here. I don't need a regulator, because the tank is only plumbed into the toilets, on a separate mains water circuit. The tank is 10kL, and would be full now, after all the rains we've had! Thanks David If you can calculate the reasonable charged head from let's say 100mm below the gutter to the top of where the vertical riser's horizontal discharge pipe will be, that… 11 17708 Building Standards; Getting It Right! Thank you for the generous offer. I need to get the plumber out to give me an explanation. As mentioned I haven't seen any rain water discharge from pipes 1& 3. It… 7 11023 Can a plumber put a tap on a rain water tank which is full? Tank is similar to one in photo. Cheers. 0 1768 |