Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! 1 Apr 06, 2013 8:52 am Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 3Apr 13, 2013 8:15 am "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men." Douglas Bader (21 February 1910 – 5 September 1982) "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 4Apr 13, 2013 10:04 am Adam.M Like with Wikipedia and its references found at the bottom of each page, what is more beneficial for the consumers is the Australian Standards references found in the guide that should point them to more information. The consumer has the avenue of doing their research (like jumping onto homeone), reading Australia Standard documentation, finding out the truth and presenting factual references back to the builder if found that they are in the right. Good luck with that one! You do not seem to understand the code's hierarchy and the standing of Australian Standards in that hierarchy. If debating an issue with a builder, the minimal allowances/requirements are all that a builder needs to meet unless specifically included in the contract. Referencing an outdated 'Guide' does not cut it and referencing Australian Standards is pointless if there are over-riding BCA provisions due to the code's hierarchy. Standards Australia is a private company. Australian Standards are not legal documents unless they are mandated by government or become part of a binding contract. Australian Standards are subject to heavy copyright and and the manuals are expensive to buy. Australian Standards are only accessible online under minority circumstances. Many Australian Standards cross reference other Standards Australia manuals, necessitating the purchase of several manuals if someone wanted a 'complete' answer. This also impacts on trades persons who are often unwilling to continually purchase numerous regularly updated manuals. Many BCA regulations can be substituted by an Australian Standard as a Deemed To Satisfy (DTS) solution but a BCA still has hierarchy in the event of a conflict. Many houses are built with a mix of BCA and DTS solutions. Referencing a Standards Australia manual and expecting to find a regulation that the house was assumed agreed to be built to is often an exercise in frivolity. It is what is in the contract that determines how a house can be built. The Guide to Standards and Tolerances is a compilation of BCA and DTS regulations but it is outdated in part and should not be relied on. EDITED June 8th, 2016 A recent Victorian Building Authority (VBA) News Release copied below has stated (paragraph four) "Practitioners are reminded that the Guide to Standards and Tolerances is not an alternative to the design standards established in the National Construction Code and should not be the benchmark for demonstrating building work complies with the requirements of the law." Better late than never! Bottom plate overhang Tuesday May 31 2016 In its Proactive Inspection Program, the VBA has identified a number of sites where bottom plates overhang the slab edge and have not been approved by the relevant building surveyor. On one project, VBA inspectors observed non-shrink grout applied to the underside of the bottom plate and adhered to the side of the slab. The bottom plate was overhanging the slab up to 40mm. In the 'VBA Guide to Standards and Tolerance 2015', item 4.08 outlines that where a 90mm wide bottom plate overhangs the slab by more than 10mm it is considered to be a defect in workmanship. Practitioners are reminded that the Guide to Standards and Tolerances is not an alternative to the design standards established in the National Construction Code and should not be the benchmark for demonstrating building work complies with the requirements of the law. Where the bottom plate overhangs the slab (including less than 10mm), the builder, site supervisor and/or building inspector should report these incidences to the relevant building surveyor for consideration. Builders, building inspectors and building surveyors are reminded that where a bottom plate overhangs the concrete slab and rectification in accordance with the approved design is not practicable, any additional building work undertaken to provide support to the bottom plate must be designed, documented and approved by the relevant building surveyor before the building works are undertaken and the frame presented for inspection. An engineer is the appropriate registered building practitioner to provide a design solution. When a practitioner finds there is bottom plate overhang, they should: Rectify the building work to meet the design requirements of the relevant building permit Where rectification is not practicable, discuss with the relevant building surveyor Engage an engineer to evaluate the impact of the bottom plate overhang on other building elements, including the adequacy of the wall cavity where a masonry veneer wall is to be constructed Document any alternative design proposal and ensure it is approved by the relevant building surveyor prior to the work being done In the case of building inspectors, ensure that any repair work on site is in accordance with the approved alternative design solution. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 5Apr 13, 2013 11:46 am SaveH2O ... Australian Standards are subject to heavy copyright and and the manuals are expensive to buy. A lawyer I employed told me I could copy any Australian Standards... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 6Apr 13, 2013 11:57 am In the absence of some reasonably objective guide, we can only go to court every time there is a dispute. I think we need guidance here, but I also think it should be applied with common sense. Where common sense fails, then we can all go to court... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 7Apr 13, 2013 12:25 pm ed @ ecoclassic A lawyer I employed told me I could copy any Australian Standards... Ed I was thinking more of online publishing and this is where people get frustrated. If you need to reference one point, you have to buy a manual that may then reference several other manuals. As a result, consumers are often kept in the dark and unaware of their rights and is a prime reason why mass numbers of new houses are built with non compliant roof/storm water drainage. Obviously they would have Buckleys of preventing private copying but you rarely see an Australian Standard quoted online. The AS manuals state: "No part of this work may be reproduced or copied in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, without the written permission of the publisher" 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 8Apr 13, 2013 12:31 pm SaveH2O ed @ ecoclassic A lawyer I employed told me I could copy any Australian Standards... Ed I was thinking more of online publishing and this is where people get frustrated. If you need to reference one point, you have to buy a manual that may then reference several other manuals. As a result, consumers are often kept in the dark and unaware of their rights and is a prime reason why mass numbers of new houses are built with non compliant roof/storm water drainage. Obviously they would have Buckleys of preventing private copying but you rarely see an Australian Standard quoted online. The AS manuals state: "No part of this work may be reproduced or copied in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, without the written permission of the publisher" How could anyone refer to a standard, if we can't write it down... I quote standards all the time. The AWA (window association) trains standards and quotes them all the time. I think it's all in the public domain, but I would not copy to sell... that would make life hard, I am sure. Ed PS, the Great Writer in the Sky did not write the AS non-copy clause. I am not saying I am right, just what I was told, and that is how I deal with it. "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 9Apr 13, 2013 9:09 pm I think common sense prevails over luck here. SaveH2O Australian Standards are not legal documents unless they are mandated by government or become part of a binding contract. Court precedence stipulates that work is to be performed in lines with the respective Australian Standards and even more so, building contracts generally state works will comply accordingly. More can be found at the official SA website: http://www.standards.org.au/StandardsDe ... e-Law.aspx SaveH2O Australian Standards are subject to heavy copyright and and the manuals are expensive to buy. Australian Standards are not accessible online. You are correct that Australian Standards are copyrighted but the rest of your argument is ill informed. There are three ways (and more) to access Australian Standards 1.) Access the online store and purchase the respective standard outright 2.) Go to your local library. Looking at Brimbank Library's online catalogue shows me that I can view AS1684 if I visited the library 3.) Find someone who is still attending university and use their access to view Australian Standards online through their uni portal. Although do agree with the complexity of BCA and AS as it doesn't make for light reading. Going back to the original argument though, The Guide to S&T should not be used by either part as a conclusion to an argument but means for further investigation. Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 10Apr 14, 2013 4:03 am Adam.M SaveH2O Australian Standards are not legal documents unless they are mandated by government or become part of a binding contract. Court precedence stipulates that work is to be performed in lines with the respective Australian Standards and even more so, building contracts generally state works will comply accordingly. Please read again what I posted. "Respective Australian Standards" are those mandated by Government or are part of a binding contract as I described in my post that you pasted. In fact, it actually states this in the Standards Australia website that you linked. Standards Australia, a private company, do not just come up with a new standard and say "here you are, another standard that you must follow" and how could "court precedence stipulate that work is to be performed in lines with the respective Australian Standards" when work is also done in accordance with the BCA that can differ to the AS? The BCA is also the primary document. Adam.M SaveH2O Australian Standards are subject to heavy copyright and and the manuals are expensive to buy. Australian Standards are not accessible online. You are correct that Australian Standards are copyrighted but the rest of your argument is ill informed. There are three ways (and more) to access Australian Standards 1.) Access the online store and purchase the respective standard outright 2.) Go to your local library. Looking at Brimbank Library's online catalogue shows me that I can view AS1684 if I visited the library 3.) Find someone who is still attending university and use their access to view Australian Standards online through their uni portal. I posted that AS manuals were subject to copyright, were expensive and not available online. Are you claiming by posting "the rest of your argument is ill informed" after first agreeing that AS are copyright that the AS manuals are not expensive and that the Australian Standards are in fact available online? Excerpts perhaps but not all. I did not post or otherwise suggest that AS were not available elsewhere but there may be some persons who could benefit from the information you have provided. I posted that the AS manuals often give incomplete answers by referencing other AS manuals. This is extremely frustrating, particularly when they are so damn expensive and often don't give a complete answer. Of course anyone can buy the manuals but most persons are not likely to and a lot of tradesmen don't constantly upgrade due to costs. Finding referrals to other standards adds to the frustration of those persons who do purchase. You could also access Australian Standards if you knew someone who had them but how many new home owners would this apply to? This however is irrelevant to what I posted. Adam.M The Guide to S&T should not be used by either part as a conclusion to an argument but means for further investigation. Agreed. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 11Apr 14, 2013 8:00 pm Been to Standards Australia, and there seems to be so many Standards. An example shows 7 separate ones just for different aspects of Windows. As I currently have access via a Uni Student, is there a list of "compulsory" AS that should be used as reference, should the need actually arise? Hopefully not. Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 12Apr 14, 2013 8:51 pm The most annoying thing I've found in the process of building a house is that Australian Standards (which I'm use to referring to for work) don't apply to houses as the BCA takes precedence e.g. stair design. I don't understand why there are two competing 'authorities' trying to govern how things are designed and constructed. ----------------------------------------------- http://pab34newdigs.blogspot.com.au/ ----------------------------------------------- Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 13Apr 15, 2013 10:04 pm PAB_34 The most annoying thing I've found in the process of building a house is that Australian Standards (which I'm use to referring to for work) don't apply to houses as the BCA takes precedence e.g. stair design. EDITED June 8th, 2016 People are confused by the conflict and are largely unaware of the hierarchy system. Most persons (I believe) also believe that all Australian Standards have a legal standing. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 14Apr 16, 2013 4:06 pm Not having trawled all the H1 rules in referring to other sites, I'll play safe, hopefully NSW Fair Trading has released a report on building problems. I came across it online via an article in The A.. Google finds it on other sites as well. "Builders the top consumer gripe" include the quotes to narrow it right down. Speaks for itself, some will say. Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 15Apr 19, 2013 11:36 pm Found a few Standards AS 1684 - 2006. Residential timber framed construction. AS 1860 - 1998. Installation of particle board flooring. AS 2047 - 1999. Windows in buildings. Selection and installation AS 2870 - 2011. Residential slabs and footings. AS 3598.1 - 1991. Ceramic tiles installation. AS 3700 - 2001. Masonry structures. AS/NZ 3500.3 - 2003. Plumbing and drainage - Stormwater drainage. CSIRO document BTF18 - 2003. Home owners guide to foundation maintenance and footing performance. AS 3959. Construction of buildings in bushfire prone areas. Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 16Apr 28, 2013 8:43 am ed @ ecoclassic "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men." Douglas Bader (21 February 1910 – 5 September 1982) BTW, this means bad builders and suppliers etc., who stick rigidly to the GTS&T (obey), are the former (fools)!! But there are plenty of suppliers and builders who don't go by the rules and say "no" anyway (they are neither fools nor wise, just ignorant and greedy, or maybe don't have the authority to fix the problem - then you must take it higher). Fortunately there are many who are the latter (wise), and say "would I have that in my home?" or "is that what I would expect after paying all that money?"... I try to see it from the customers' viewpoint and ignore the cost burden, many homeowners and builders then try to see things from my perspective and everyone is happy. I once changed over a whole houselot of PVC windows, to aluminium windows at no charge, the husband (a builder) had chosen PVC, but when she saw them installed and on site, his wife decided they did not fit her dream, so we took the PVC windows back and manufactured and supplied aluminium. What happened next? Well, after 12 months, the husband took me to court for delaying the build because the windows were late, because it took another 6 weeks to supply aluminium, he claimed the delay was our fault because the PVC windows supplied were the wrong colour, and the wrong size... so he wanted $40,000!!! And he had not paid for the windows!!! So there we were sitting in mediation across the table, he with his solicitor, the mediator, our sales representative and me, and I asked him if, as per his claim, he believed that the original PVC windows were the wrong colour and wrong size -"yes" he said. Bad judgement on my part, helping him when his wife gave him a hard time. And incompetence on my part, hanging onto the old windows for a full year, but also very fortunate. I enjoyed watching him in our factory, check his colour samples against each window (the colours in PVC never vary), and measuring each... End of claim, end of story. Another good outcome was I sold the original windows to a very deserving guy who happened to be a paramedic, who, 4 weeks after he bought them, saved me when I had a heart attack... he got the bargain of a lifetime, I got my life. My guide to standards: -
Am I being fair? Will anyone suffer? How will I feel afterwards? I have a builder right now, claiming big dollars and blaming me for a problem that he created and he is attempting to cover up... Never let anyone change who you are, my guiding principle is, you always have a choice to make every experience an opportunity to get better or bitter. Sometimes, when customers and builders are very difficult from the start, I think their last encounter with someone else may have been trying. So I try harder. Being human, I lost it once recently... but the customer saw my side and understood. She had been through the mill with her builder, I had personal problems affecting my availability to solve her problem... minds met, it was sorted, and I have a happy customer. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 17Apr 28, 2013 9:59 am well said Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: Guide to Standards and Tolerances is Bible"Book of Excus 18Mar 20, 2017 8:21 am This is what I absolutely hate about Guide to Standards and Tolerances Australia's most professional builder is hiding behind the guide for entry door that is badly bowed and cannot seal when closed. Would the director of the building company accept this on his home? Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog I believe this is correct. From the picture you can see the power was put in last so the electrician knew where the water was. Really it's a common sense issue more… 4 5299 2 8961 We are having a bathroom reddone. The builders are putting down two coats of waterproofing and then screed and then another coat of waterproofing. This is what I have been… 0 3077 |