Browse Forums Lighting + Lighting Design 1 Mar 04, 2020 12:05 pm We've just built two townhouses, and the builder has installed downlights are are not quite bright enough in most of the rooms, and just barely bright enough in the bedrooms. Our building contract specifies that the builder will supply 80mm LED downlights with frosted cover, but does not specify lumens. Do I have any recourse to get my builder to replace with brighter downlights? For example, are there any illumination standards that I could show him? I checked the Building Code of Australia and could not find anything about illumination of bedrooms or living spaces. A bit more detail... I did the lighting layout based on various articles that I read, and to my understanding I slightly over-specified the number of lights to ensure we had ample brightness, and also specified dimmers on all light switches. Unfortunately I do not recall the lumens that the articles I read were using. And stupid me for not specifying in the contract. The units supplied by my builder are 660lm in warm white mode. Our open plan area is 8.5x9m and has 20 downlights (172lm/m2). I specified 4 downlights in each bedroom of approx 3.5x4m (188lm/m2, though more wall reflection). The bedrooms are just bright enough for reading, with no headroom if you wanted ramp it up for an intricate task. The open plan area is not bright enough for cooking or reading, but OK for watching TV. Of course the builder would argue that it is bright enough for cooking. I had a look at my current residence, which has 950lm lights. It uses fewer lights and averages around 155lm/m2 for bedrooms, and 220-240lm/m2 for living/task areas, and it works well. Strangely, for the bedrooms, the 188lm/m2 of builders lights seems only about as bright as the 155lm/m2 of my current residence. Builder supplied 660lm lights: https://www.atomlighting.com.au/product/at9039-tri/ Current residence 950lm lights: https://www.sassignage.com.au/lumme-dl-06-33w-19.html Would I have grounds to get my builder to replace the lights, at least for the task/living areas? Re: Builder installed downlights that are too dim 2Mar 06, 2020 11:17 am Looking at the lights on the website it says they are tri colour so you should be able to switch between warm white/cool white. take down a fitting and flick the switch to a different colour range. they should just plug in so are easy to change if it comes to that. Re: Builder installed downlights that are too dim 3Mar 06, 2020 1:17 pm psdillon Delivered light is measured by lux. You can download a basic lux meter tool app onto you phone. Australian standards consider 160 lux on the work surface (ie 700mm) to be acceptable ambient lighting in general areas like living rooms and office circulation areas etc. For specific tasks brighter lighting is recommended. For example in offices a minimum of 320 lux is recommended. In most homes it’s usually a combination of daylight, general lighting, decorative lighting (pendants sconces etc) and task lighting (Desklights etc) to deliver what’s required at the time. I suggest you check, record and consider the lux data. If it’s really low you can then prepare a logical and reasonable request to the builder for assistance on the basis their downlights are not fit for purpose. The quoted lumen output of you lights could be overstated versus actual (common situation) and the lights beam pattern may not be wide or concentrated enough. Also if the builder advised you in the planning and selection then they need to take some responsibility. If they don’t support you then you can consider appropriate escalation.
Re: Builder installed downlights that are too dim 6Mar 06, 2020 3:47 pm Norfolk @psdillon Delivered light is measured by lux. You can download a basic lux meter tool app onto you phone. Australian standards consider 160 lux on the work surface (ie 700mm) to be acceptable ambient lighting in general areas like living rooms and office circulation areas etc. For specific tasks brighter lighting is recommended. For example in offices a minimum of 320 lux is recommended. In most homes it’s usually a combination of daylight, general lighting, decorative lighting (pendants sconces etc) and task lighting (Desklights etc) to deliver what’s required at the time. I suggest you check, record and consider the lux data. If it’s really low you can then prepare a logical and reasonable request to the builder for assistance on the basis their downlights are not fit for purpose. The quoted lumen output of you lights could be overstated versus actual (common situation) and the lights beam pattern may not be wide or concentrated enough. Also if the builder advised you in the planning and selection then they need to take some responsibility. If they don’t support you then you can consider appropriate escalation. Thanks Norfolk. Could you refer me to the Australian standards where those values are specified? I think it will come to that! If the builder doesn't help I'll do as you say and check whether the light manufacturer has overstated the lumens. Re: Builder installed downlights that are too dim 7Mar 06, 2020 3:52 pm aussieta you did the lighting layout and specified the light size but now it is builders fault that it is not bright enough I specified the layout, not the size. The builder's electrician picked the light. I would assume that they would pick a light fit for purpose. In hindsight I wish I had specified the brightness. I didn't specify the wire gauge either. Things like wire gauge seem to be covered by standards, but I couldn't find anything about illumination. And the layout I did used more lights than typical layouts I've seen in recently built homes. Re: Builder installed downlights that are too dim 8Mar 06, 2020 4:29 pm psdillon The standard is AS/NZS 1680.2.1.2008 'Interior and Workplace Lighting Circulation Spaces and Other General Areas'. eg General areas: 160 lux, Kitchens: 240 lux, Restrooms 40 lux, stair 80 lux... Its intended as a guide for offices but it's not legislated mandatory. However in your circumstance it provides a guide for what's reasonably expected for general illumination around the home. The builder is obliged to install lights that deliver reasonable illumination based on the agreed layout. At a minimum they should understand what illumination their downlights will deliver and explain this to you. Re: Builder installed downlights that are too dim 9Mar 06, 2020 4:39 pm Norfolk @psdillon The standard is AS/NZS 1680.2.1.2008 'Interior and Workplace Lighting Circulation Spaces and Other General Areas'. eg General areas: 160 lux, Kitchens: 240 lux, Restrooms 40 lux, stair 80 lux... Its intended as a guide for offices but it's not legislated mandatory. However in your circumstance it provides a guide for what's reasonably expected for general illumination around the home. The builder is obliged to install lights that deliver reasonable illumination based on the agreed layout. At a minimum they should understand what illumination their downlights will deliver and explain this to you. Thanks very much Norfolk, really appreciate that reference. Thankfully that section of the standard is online and I don't have to shell out $116, which I can put towards a light meter. Fingers crossed builder will listen to reason. Thanks again. Re: Builder installed downlights that are too dim 11Mar 06, 2020 5:32 pm I've got an Android phone and the cameras are all different and would need to be calibrated. I tried two Android phones side by side and they gave wildly different numbers... 11 lux vs 41 lux. Jaycar sell a lux meter for $60 that is +/- 5%. Re: Builder installed downlights that are too dim 12Mar 07, 2020 5:13 am psdillon From the ACCC website: Under the Australian Consumer Law, when you buy products and services they come with automatic guarantees that they will work and do what you asked for. If you buy something that isn't right, you have consumer rights. Re: Builder installed downlights that are too dim 13Mar 12, 2020 11:56 am I bought a light meter and measured. The kitchen, which is the most problematic area is only getting 37 lumens on a bench with high cupboards, and 144 lumens on island bench. Below the 160 for normal room and below 240 for kitchens. The house we're living in now gets 134 for bench and 173 for island, and is just bright enough. We would turn on dining lights normally to get satisfactory illumination. We've had a lot of back-and-forth with the builder on other cost disputes, so I've let this dispute go and held firm on the others. It's a real blow though - I'm estimating it'll be $2,000 to replace roughly half the downlights across the two townhouses we're building. Thanks for your help Norfolk - much appreciated. The unit normally clips into a metal plate screwed to the wall, either plate is not flush, or unit not hooked in and could be hanging from the pipes partly, either might… 2 15791 It will be neat but you won't have much freeboard. At least they are not weep holes. Are you in a high intensity rainfall region? 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