Browse Forums Lighting + Lighting Design 1 Sep 05, 2008 9:32 am We are having about 30 downlights throughout the house we are building.
They will be halogen downlights. Before everyone starts yelling at me, they are only being used as true task lighting and for lighting hallways. I want a bright light for these areas. They will be used to light work surfaces, over bathroom benches, over a computer desk, to light the kitchen blackboard, and the hallways. The only rooms that will have downlights as the main lighting will be the dining room, I like to see my food well lit, (but it will also have a pendant on a different switch) and the outdoor room (on a dimmer). I decided on halogens as I'm not happy with the alternatives light wise at the moment. I'm happy to change when the technology improves. I have given all the above information so I don't get all the advice on my alternatives, and told why I shouldn't be using halogens. I have researched the alternatives, and halogens are best for me at this stage. Now to the question........the downlights we are installing are 12V and have a safety heat hood fixed. Is this safety head hood protection enough to enable the insulation to completely cover the downlight or do I still need to buy a further protector for each one? In the pic I have, the protector is like a conical shape that sits over the light. I know about the new standard and the gaps, but it also says about appropriate protection and how do you know the right protection. I'm really confused on the protection issue. I don't want any gaps in the insulation at all but I also want to be completely safe and do things the right way. Or is there simply no option but to have gaps if there's downlights? Jo I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 2Sep 05, 2008 9:38 am Joles, My Dad is a sparky and we asked what the right amount of space for the surround of these lights were and he put it this way.
Do you know the size of a catering tin of tomatoes is. About 20cm diameter by roughly 30cm high. That is the size he suggested. That was last year and things might be different in your state as far as requirements go. So we found some PVC pipe and cut that to those measurements and put around all our lights and we had no probs. Our insulation was the pillow kind..... K Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 4Sep 05, 2008 9:47 am So what the hell is the heat hood for then? This is what is so confusing. The price of the downlights goes up because they have these attached heat hoods but they are in effect useless. Is that what you're saying?
I know the area that has to be kept clear if there is no covering, but what about with the cover? I think this is a relatively simple question yet no-one seems to be able to answer it. If the heat hoods are useless, why the hell are we paying for them????? Sorry I'm just really bloody frustrated on this. I want no holes in my insulation, I want some downlights, I don't want to go and buy bloody PVC and cut anything. I want to achieve my aim. If it is not achieveable I'd rather someone just say that so I can change my electrical plan. I've read pages and pages about downlights and still cannot find the answer to this simple question. I'm not handy, I don't want to cut bloody PVC!!!! I just want full insulation and downlights. Is it possible??????? Rant over. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 6Sep 05, 2008 10:03 am Joles, I am not sure about how the heat hoods operate but there needs to be enough space around them so they don't turn themselves off aswell.
If they get to hot they cut out and then you have to wait for them to cool down again until you can turn the light back on and use them again. Thats why the PVC on top aswell. The hoods do their job but at the same time if you have a hood and insulation there is no escape anywhere for the heat. I know that shouldn't make them this way but they do and you know the alternatives..............because you have researched it. Sorry if I couldn't give you the answer you were looking for. Maybe Mica will see this and reply with a professional answer.....mine is only hearsay. Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 8Sep 05, 2008 9:32 pm Hi all
Here is the extract out of the standards the rules state the following 4.5.2.3 Recessed luminaires Recessed luminaires and their auxiliary equipment shall be installed in a manner designed to minimize temperature rise and prevent the risk of fire. The temperature rise at the rear of a recessed luminaire shall be limited to prevent damage to adjacent materials. This requirement shall be satisfied by one of the following methods: (a) The use of a luminaire specifically designed and certified by the manufacturer to permit— (i) contact with combustible materials; or (ii) enclosure or covering by thermal insulation material, as appropriate to the location of the luminaire. (b) Installation of the luminaire within a suitable fire-resistant enclosure. (c) Provision of required clearances from combustible and thermal insulating material as specified by the manufacturer of the luminaire. (d) Provision of the default clearances from combustible and thermal insulating material as specified in Figure 4.7. Where manufacturer’s installation instructions that specify required clearances are not available, the luminaire shall be installed in accordance with (b) or (d). NOTE: In the case of a suitably designed luminaire, the installation instructions may specify that no clearance is required. Recessed luminaires and their auxiliary equipment shall be installed in such a manner that necessary cooling air movement through or around the luminaire is not impaired by thermal insulation or other material. Where thermal insulation is of a type that is not fixed in position, e.g. loose fill, a barrier or guard constructed of fire-resistant material shall be provided and secured in position to maintain the necessary clearance (see Figure 4.7). Where thermal insulation may reasonably be expected to be installed in the space containing a recessed luminaire, the luminaire shall be installed in such a manner as to provide for the subsequent installation of thermal insulation. Recessed luminaires shall be installed in accordance with (a) or (b), or provided with equivalent protective measures, where there is a likelihood of extraneous combustible material, e.g. leaves or vermin debris, etc., collecting on or around the luminaire. so if your heat hood, as you put it, is a suitable fire resistant enclosure, then no you don't need the gap around it. if it isn't it may be providing the clearances you need. I am not sure of the size of your heat hoods. I can't post the pic for the clearances if no fire resistant enclosure the best i can do 1st mm is for incandescent, 2nd for halogen, clearance for the tranny is the same A – clearance above luminaire 50 mm 200 mm B - side clearance to structural member 100 mm 200 mm C – clearance to thermal insulation 50 mm 200 mm D – clearance to supply transformer 50 mm I'm not sure what the building process is, but can you could ring your builder and get them to clarify with the sparkies on this? Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 9Sep 18, 2008 7:52 pm Hi there Jules,
If you don't want to lose the insulation, heat hoods are a must! You can find all the clearances for heat hoods at the following link http://shop.micaunited.com.au/details/2253375.html That should keep you both warm & safe! Happy to help. Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 11Oct 15, 2008 9:41 pm In layman's terms, the Australian Standard clause(s) quoted above basically say that you need to maintain a specified free-air-space distance around the top and sides of the halogen globe, to make sure nothing gets close enough to the hot globe to catch fire. If you can't (or don't want to) maintain that distance, then you need to use a downlight fitting that has a fire-resistant enclosure built-in to it, or use a separate fire-resistant enclosure for the light fitting. The manufacturer of the enclosure/fitting needs to have it tested to comply with further Australian Standards (so technically, the PVC pipe method isn't suitable any more unless you can get a document from the PVC pipe manufacturer stating it's fireproof ). These are the ones I've seen a few years ago when I found out that the rules were changing to be alot more stringent in regards to downlights: http://www.isolite.com.au/ Actually both the cone-style ones and the isolites are half-way down this page Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 12Oct 16, 2008 7:46 pm Hi Jo , I am nearly finished building a house and the lighting was a bit of a headache with raked ceilings and cold climate ( didnt want gaps in insulation either ) I ended up going with compact flourescent downlights (15w nelson about 120mm diam ) in the main living and halogens over kitchen benches and pendant over dining . I was advised that the nelsons wouldnt be as strong as halogens and to put an extra light in the centre of the grid of 4 throughout . I did that but in retrospect I dont think i needed to . The nelsons do throw out good light ( just have to wait a couple of minutes for them to fire up ) but it is good to know that the 12 nelsons used less power than the 4 halogens over the bench !? And the best part about the nelsons is no gaps in insulation ....... batts straight over the top
Cheers Andrew Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 13Oct 16, 2008 7:58 pm agp,
Do the 15w Nelson downlights run off 240V or low voltage dc? Also, do you have a part number or web reference, I'd like to look them up. Jo, If you want the brightens of halogens without the problem with insulation/heating, why not contemplate the 15w CFLs? Cheers, Casa Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 15Oct 17, 2008 10:51 am The Nelson ones i bought dont seem to be on their website , but I rang the lighting shop that I bought them and thet said the new telbix ones are very good . link http://www.telbix.com/DLCF.html
The ones i bought had the globe laying horizontal not vertical like these and that is better for raked ceilings ( my opinion ) Cheers AP Re: 16Sep 20, 2009 3:27 am I'm bumping this thread - we're just installing ceiling insulation, my sparky's on holiday in Port Douglas and I need to ask the question. Like others, I don't want to puncture my insulation, I don't want to cut holes in it and I don't want to catch fire! We're installing 13w CFLs (haven't bought them yet... sparky says 13w are the max we can have without having enourmous downlights) and I want to make sure we do everything right before we plaster! Can any previous poster share what they ended up using? Thanks JB Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 17Sep 20, 2009 12:06 pm JB, I assume you want to know what type of fitting to use regarding the CFL globes in relation to insulation etc... FYI, the CFL globes are not required to have the large spacing from insulation as is required when using halogen or incandescent globes. You can still use the heat covers over the back of the downlight fitting if you desire, but they're not necessary, as the CFL globes do not get anywhere near as hot as the halogen globes. Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 18Sep 20, 2009 12:48 pm installation inspector JB, I assume you want to know what type of fitting to use regarding the CFL globes in relation to insulation etc... Would be grateful if you could enlighten me just in case I don't! JB Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 19Sep 20, 2009 3:22 pm As far as I'm aware, for recessed downlights, there is no difference in light fittings whether you use a halogen globe or a CFL - where the globes fit into the light fitting, the relevant part of the globes are identical. It is only a concern if you're using CFL globes in light fittings which are surface-mount (eg: the 4-spot light fittings where the globes are mounted on a bar) as different wattage CFL's are different depths, and some of the light fittings are specifically designed to accomodate a certain wattage (ie: depth) of CFL to enclose the back of the globe. The omly difference between recessed downlight fittings used for 240v globes (regardless of whether they're halogen or CFL) is that they have a bracket on the back to connect the earth wire to. Regular 12v downlight fittings don't have the bracket as they don't need the earth wire connected directly to it as the globes are supplied from transformers at 12v. That's not to say your electrician doesn't need to run an earth to the transformer, though (as is often done), as the customer may decide to put CFL's in at a later date, and will need the earth wire to connect to the bracket (and thus have the light fitting changed to one with a bracket!). There should be an earth wire present at all light fittings (except on one exception condition which is where a large transformer supplies multiple globes, which is getting beyond the scope of your question ). Re: Another downlight question......!!!! 20Sep 21, 2009 8:52 pm errr does that mean I have to cut holes in the insulation for CFL downlights or not? Sorry for being thick. JB Hi, Apologies - I know there is plenty out there on this but struggling to put together the puzzle. We're planning our garage/external laundry to master bedroom and… 0 10925 thank you! do we need to get this or our builder before we commence new build on the block? 2 10261 You can really use anything you want the main consideration would be how it looks once painted/finished - or the look you want. Cabinetmakers use MDF because its cheap… 2 9941 |