ARE HEAT SHIELDS NEEDED FOR LED DOWNLIGHTS?

When doing pre-start my builder said i would need to provide heat shrouds/shields for the downlights i would be giving them to install...I asked if they were needed for LED ones as well and told YES....i went into Beacon Lighting the other day and was told that shields are not necessary with LED's as they have inbuilt ventilation and that you cant get shrouds to fit LED's properly anyway!!!....So now I am realllllly confused...
Can any electricians/lighting experts out there give me their opinions...
Thanks

Just wondering how many more times this is listed under different headings??

It is listed twice!!!....a

Actually i placed it under here first...but thought it may be the wrong forum as this forum is entitled "creative lighting" and enquiries about heat shields is not very creative... so I put it under the building forum...and have had replies to the other post which shows that was the right one...AND now unfortunately i cannot delete this post as one cannot delete once a reply has been received!....and now my post can only be deleted by admin...

Hi Oneness,
I was told th same by Beacon Lighting, I was also told the LED's dont generate much heat. Im not sure what to choose either. I like the look of down lights as I want ceiling fans but I dont like holes being cut in ceiling.
Good luck with your choices,

Thanks Gandj...we have made our decision we are going the LED way...after much talking to lighting stores and doing research it seems that shields are definitely not needed and the LED's do have inbuilt ventilation and should heaven forbid something come into contact with it and start to warm up, then they have an instant safety cutout...so no worries there at all...
I know what you mean about the ceiling cutouts but there isnt much one can do...and from experience after having lights moved in our current home, the ceiling guys do a brilliant job of patching and one cannot even see where the old holes were
Good luck with your choices also..

They don't need them, just make sure you get a quality LED bulb.

I don't know if Philips make a quality LED bulb, but I've contacted their technical support & they explicitly say NOT to fully enclose an LED light-fitting, or they don't cool properly & fail early. I can't see how laying insulation over the top isn't the same as fully enclosing it; LED's being expensive, we've decided not to use downlights in the top floor where we're laying insulation.

LED's don't heat up anywhere near as much as halogens so they don't pose a fire risk and hence a shield in not needed for this reason. However LED's are sensitive to heat and can fail early if inadequate ventilation. So in a ceiling with insulation you still require to leave a gap around each fitting.

I would think for this reason a heat shield (as long as it's well ventilated) would be a good idea as it guarantees a certain free space around the light without having to leave much larger gaps in your insulation rendering it effectively useless. For a few dollars each I think it's a good idea.

Probably too late now for the OP, but I've been doing research on this and have come up with what I THINK is MY INTERPRETATION of things !!

As we all know, LED's don't give out that much heat BUT they still generate some heat, and this heat must be permitted to dissipate in some manner and covering them with insulation effectively traps the heat.......NOWHERE NEAR a burn-your-house down level, but WAY ABOVE what's a prudent level for giving operating electronics a decent lifespan !

However, moving the insulation away from the light fittings creates a couple of its own problems, namely how do you ensure the clearance remains after a few years and secondly you lose A LOT of your ceiling insulations effectiveness !

And, as far as I can tell, the Australian Standards don't discriminate between LEDs / CFL / Halogen downlights, they are all downlights, and this means that their installation requirements are the same, that is, they REQUIRE 50mm of "clearance".

Generally !!

There are now available several downlight covers that fix both these problems, they keep the insulation off of the LED downlight so that it doesn't overheat and are "zero-rated" which means that you can butt the roof insulation right up to them.

Here are a couple of examples (standard disclaimer applies ) do YOUR OWN research using this as a starting point !!

This mob .........
http://efficiencymatrix.com.au/
Actually even have a list of LED manufacturers who specifically approve of their product.

Note, I am interested in Melec ML-D15+ downlight which is not specifically mentioned, but when I contacted Melec they said that it has the same characteristics as the tested ML-A15-W and so these covers were OK for the ML-D15+.

If the light you want to use isn't listed, contact the manufacturer and ask

Here's their "approved" list......
http://efficiencymatrix.com.au/insulati ... -lighting/

A second product I have found (and I think I prefer it more) is this one ...............
http://www.downlightcovers.com.au/products.html

Or a third option which I don't mind either ................
http://www.isolite.com.au/product.htm

Hope this helps and clears up a few questions !!

P_D

I would strongly suggest not using covers for LED fixtures. It will most definitely lead to premature failure of the chip. This time frame could still be measured in years but will not be the intended lifetime. MELEC have no mention of chip supplier so I couldn't tell you accurately. but you could be shortening the lifetime but 20-30,000 hours.

There are 2 factors to consider:
-Air leaking through the fixture (use a fixed fitting not gimbal)
-break in insulation (typically unavoidable)

As far as we are aware insulation regulations towards LED fixtures rely on the manufacturer giving specific distances away from insulation (for example we require 25mm) This allows a hole as small as 100mm in the insulation, minimising the affect of the heat loss.

New regulations in NZ are calling for manufacturers to design fittings to cope with being covered completely, although possible chip lifetimes will surely be reduced.

This testing require fixtures to remain under 90deg which is well below the average ignition point insulation.

Thanks think_wise,

I've done some more research, and for anyone doing a "significant" renovation or building a new house, they REALLY NEED to install some sort of approved cover.....

I know and realise the following is from a cover manufacture but they say that ALL downlights MUST be covered........

So, either ALL (and by the very definition, LED downlights are covered under the "all" term) downlights MUST to be covered, or they are, to be polite, wrong, and since they have a vested interest in selling these products, some might say actually telling porky pies !!

Note, the following is a cut-and-paste, they emphasise the word "all".......................

"Did you realise that it is a mandatory government requirement since 2009 that ALL downlights have to be covered with some form of Downlight Cover. "

http://www.downlightigloo.com.au/?gclid ... bgod7l6Qqg
Retrieved 9.45am 31/05/13

Be that as it may, there is another reason why anyone doing a "significant" renovation or building a new house should* install these covers ............

Energy assessors (mandatory for significant renovations and all new houses) are required to take the number of downlights into account when factoring in the insulation values of houses and for a 10 square meter room (3.16m * 3.16m) four downlights can HALF the insulation properties of the room.

This is a link to a technical guideance note from the Association of Building Sustainability Assessors, the covering body for people who will actually be doing the energy assesment on your renovation / building.

While at first glance it appears pretty dry and technical, it is, IMHO, actually very well written, and if you read it carefully surprisingly easy to understand.

For energy assessment purposes ABSA LED's are classified the same as CFL's and incandescent lamps.

" For the purposes of this practice note LED’s and CFL’s are to have the same clearances as incandescent lamps." (Minimum 50mm)

And here's the crunch ................

"Note: If approved fireproof downlight covers, which can be fully covered by insulation, are specified
and noted on the electrical plan by the building designer or architect, then there is no need to allow
for the ceiling penetration"

And just in case you missed it the first time, they say it again

"Approved non ventilated cover or shield: which allows for the insulation to be closely installed to the sides and top. Then no ceiling penetration allowance need be made."

Long story short, you really should* should install approved downlight covers on all your downlights AND ensure that the fact that they will be installed is noted on your plans.

http://www.absa.net.au/documents/item/105

If your are doing a renovation that require approval, or building a new house, I really cannot see how you can get away without covers.

Remember, the above information comes from a "Practice note" issued by the people who will be doing your mandatory energy assessment !!

Hope this helps,

P_D

should* In this context means it's a really good idea and bad things could happen if you don't, but it's not mandatory

I will not guarantee this is up to date but....

4.5.2.3 Recessed luminaires
Recessed luminaires and their auxiliary equipment shall be installed in a
manner designed to minimize temperature rise and prevent the risk of fire.
The temperature rise at the rear of a recessed luminaire shall be limited to
prevent damage to adjacent materials.
This requirement shall be satisfied by one of the following methods:
(a) The use of a luminaire specifically designed and certified by the
manufacturer to permit—
(i) contact with combustible materials; or
(ii) enclosure or covering by thermal insulation material,
as appropriate to the location of the luminaire.
(b) Installation of the luminaire within a suitable fire-resistant enclosure.
(c) Provision of required clearances from combustible and thermal
insulating material as specified by the manufacturer of the luminaire.
(d) Provision of the default clearances from combustible and thermal
insulating material as specified in Figure 4.7.

Not having access to the regulations, I suspect you're right !!!

So if this is the case, the three options are .............

1) (a)(i)(ii)....A specific "fire rated" light fixture, I have seen a couple of these in my browsing, but there is a very limited choice and as such, their prices reflect this

2) (b) Install some sort of cover

3) (c) & (d) Ensure suitable clearance from the light to the cover

Light manufacturers can specify clearances as they deem appropriate, and in the absence of a specification the standard default values (LED / CFL / Incandescent = 50mm, Halogen = 200mm) must be used. I see that you said that your lights do meet the minimum requirements

So, Unless specific fire-rated lights or covers are used, we're back to the energy assessor marking the insulation levels down !

I fully understand your points as a lighting manufacturer that you are seeking to have your lights running as cool as possible (Lights must be installed in a fully air-conditioned roof space, only in Tasmania, and only used during winter nights ) and can see that that covering a bare light with nice and cozy insulation is something that would cause many issues.

However, as more and more people build new homes and run into these energy assessment problems this is something that the manufacturers are going to need to address sooner rather than later.

IMHO, As a consumer, if the regulations (and a large part of the problem is that there are two masters to satisfy, the "Safety..Must have clearance" problem and the "Energy efficiency, Must not have clearance" problem ) pretty much "require" me to have covers then the lighting and cover manufacturers need to work together to address this problem !!

We are just about to sign off on our new home, a large-ish house with around 150 downlights and I'm the sort of guy who does (and expects) things to be done properly.

IMHO, while there are unlimited choices in LED downlights available in Australia, there are only a handful that I would consider using, and yes, Thinkwise is one of them !!

So my energy assessor tells me that I've got to significantly increase the R-Value of my roof insulation if I don't use downlight covers, and I do the research and find that of the three of four I've been considering, not all of them will approve / warranty their lights if used with covers, what would you do if you were me ?

P_D

I do agree its a bit of a pain, because keeping the R value of your insulation would be great.

As some news. Our spark900 has passed the 90deg test in NZ which means it remains under 90deg whilst completely covered with insulation. We are yet to decide how far we endorse this in Australia as it does reduce the chips working life. However I would say it could still outlive a lot of product we currently see arriving on our shores.....

That's great news for the consumer, just the sort of thing we need !!



That's probably not too hard a task !!!

There's a reason why some products are dearer than others, and that's because they actually are better than others.

As a consumer it frustrates me that while I appear to have an ever-increasing range of choices (not just in downlights, but in just about any product I purchase) it is getting harder and harder to find quality products.

I feel for manufacturers such as yourself who bring a quality product into such a competitive market but who are unable to compete on price.

But, my experience has taught me that it's usually far cheaper to "Buy it right, buy it once".

In this particular case I could save myself a bucket-load of $$'s my using Yum-Cha brand (or even worse, no-brand) downlights, but I know what would happen ................

1) I wouldn't be satisfied with the brightness or colour
2) I'd have several "flickering" of otherwise not performing
3) I'd complain to the builder who would tell me it's the electricians / suppliers problem
4) The electrician / supplier wouldn't be interested
5) Finally they would realise I meant business and tell me that the lights were performing according to their specifications
5a) ..........Except maybe it might be the dimmer manufacturers fault
5b) The dimmer manufacturer would tell me that the dimmers were operating according to their specifications
6) Someone would replace two or three downlights
7) Now the downlights are "Out of warranty"
8 ) More fail, I cannot buy the exact same ones and now I have several different downlights throughout the house
9) The new downlights also require a bigger / smaller hole and I have painting & patching issues

And that's why I buy decent ones in the first place

P_D

Excellent thread with lots of info guys.

Stewie

Led running temperature is around 60 to 80 degrees depending on the bulb. At this temperature it is not enough to burn compared to halogen which runs at 300+ degrees.

Yes, True, but this may or may not actually be completely relevant.

As previously mentioned, the BCA (now actually the NCC) states the required clearance for different types of downlights, and LEDs are in the same category as CFL and (regular) incandescent globes.

So, while there is not a large risk that LED downlights will cause a fire they are still "required" to be clear of combustible materials and should NOT be covered with insulation.

Covering them with insulation can lead to the heat that they DO generate being unable to escape and causing premature failure due to overheating.

"Approved" covers give them some clearance from the insulation so they don't cook themselves, ensures that they remain clear of combustible materials and keep the energy assessors happy by ensuring that the insulation layer in your ceiling remains intact.

SO...To answer the topic of the thread, "Are heat shields needed for LED downlights", they short answer is... "Yes, in a new build, they ARE required".

P_D

OK, This has been a hot topic on Whirlpool, and for those who don't have access there, here's the summary ..................

AS/NZS 3000:2007 sets out the requirements that downlights are to be installed in such a manner as to prevent any fire risk to buildings.

As we've done to death, there are three ways this can be achieved....

1) Use an approved downlight with an integral fire shield
2) Maintain adequate clearance
3) Use an APPROVED COVER

Now, using option 3, we find that AS/NZS 5110:2011 will define for us an "Approved Cover".

The take-home point of AS/NZS 5110:2011 is that covers are classified according to a number of points, such as resistance to burning, their own insulation values, physical strength and the like.

Of interest to us then are TWO POINTS in the Standard....

1)..... The applications the cover may be used for

The Standard provides three options, and the classification shall be marked on the cover....

1) Single Combination....Only suitable for ONE particular downlight
2) Combination...Suitable for several different downlights. In this case the cover must be marked with either a list of the downlights it is compatible with OR a web-address that lists the downlights the cover is approved for
3) Generic.....Must be marked as to being suitable for a CLASS of downlight, FOR EXAMPLE "Suitable for LED downlights up to 20 Watts"

AND

2).....The amount of insulation permitted adjacent or above the cover, for us in Australia (excluding possibly some Alpine regions) there are two options....

1) Normal (depth)’ barriers: ‘Suitable for direct abutment to normally flammable building elements or insulation depth of 200 mm’

2) ‘Allowed to cover’ barriers: ‘Suitable for direct abutment and covering with normally flammable building elements or insulation of any depth’ and wording about locating the independent lamp control gear clear of the insulation.

The covers must have markings on them as follows ....

1) For ANY sort of insulation, but in particular loose-fill type....
Line on the barrier to indicate the depth of insulation that is allowed by its classification. The width of the line shall be no less than 1 mm. Above this line the words to convey the intent of ‘NO INSULATION’ or ‘DO NOT BURY ABOVE LINE’ shall be marked in text no less than 5 mm in height. Text is to be legible from above.

2) For covers suitable for batts only.....
Barriers that are only suitable for segmented thermal insulation do not require this line/marking but shall be marked ‘DANGER NOT SUITABLE FOR LOOSE FILL INSULATION’ in text no less than 10 mm in height. Text is to be legible from above.

3) Covers that CAN be covered......
Barriers classified as ‘Allowed to cover’ do not require this line/marking but shall be marked ‘May be covered’.

So, in summary, my $0.02

For my NEW BUILD I will be using downlight covers approved to AS/NZS 5110:2011, with a "LUMINAIRE SUITABILITY CLASSIFICATION" of GENERIC and a DEPTH CLASSIFICATION of "ALLOWED TO COVER".

This ticks both of "The Boxes" ...........

1) It ensures that the downlight is installed in a "safe" manner that maintains adequate clearance from combustible materials and prevents possible future breaches of fire protection by, as they say, leaves, vermin or wind blowing unwanted materials into the ceiling space

2) It keeps our Energy Assessor friends happy as we maintain appropriate levels of insulation in the ceiling space without having 200mm diameter insulation "holes" around every downlight.

And realistically, I think this is now the ONLY option available to new builds or significant renovations where you want to use downlights.

Hope this helps and possibly clears things up !!

P_D

A lot of great info here guys, some very informative, and some not relevant. You see, LED downlights are designed to dissipate heat (if any) evenly through the attached or built in Heat Sink, and therefore do not pose a problem when positioned close to thermal insulation.

LED downlights, like any working product requires ample air flow to help cool the unit, and by covering them with a shroud/insulation will hinder this task from occuring, and thereby shortening the life of the light.

Common sense will tell you not to cover any light fitting that has penetrated the ceiling space, and stated by the manufacturer that a heat shroud is not needed.

Rules and regulations vary on individual products, but if the particular Light was made to absorb the heat, then a heat can is not needed. It comes down to the tradesman/builder to ensure the lights and Insulation are installed in the correct manner.

I hope this rather simple explanation has helped, but if you do have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask, as I am an electrician by trade, and we sell many major suppliers lights to the country, and would be happy to help.