Browse Forums Lighting + Lighting Design Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 22Jul 26, 2007 1:58 pm Touchingcloth does anyone know if insulation is usually put between ground and upstairs in a 2 storey house? thanks I know ours does. We didn't ask for it but they just said it's standard and said it will cut down on noise a fair bit. Having moved in now it was a good decision from the builder as we can barely hear anyone when they're upstairs. Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 23Jul 26, 2007 2:18 pm double07 Touchingcloth does anyone know if insulation is usually put between ground and upstairs in a 2 storey house? thanks I know ours does. We didn't ask for it but they just said it's standard and said it will cut down on noise a fair bit. Having moved in now it was a good decision from the builder as we can barely hear anyone when they're upstairs. Just curious, is your house double brick or brick veneer?? Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 24Jul 26, 2007 3:25 pm ahuang double07 Touchingcloth does anyone know if insulation is usually put between ground and upstairs in a 2 storey house? thanks I know ours does. We didn't ask for it but they just said it's standard and said it will cut down on noise a fair bit. Having moved in now it was a good decision from the builder as we can barely hear anyone when they're upstairs. Just curious, is your house double brick or brick veneer?? Brick veneer. Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 26Jul 27, 2007 12:46 am brittany channel nine news tonight in victoria in the last twelve months - sixty house fires caused by halogen down lights allegedly Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 27Jul 27, 2007 10:05 am Okay, so feel free to shed some further light on my thoughts as of late. Please feel free to correct me, aswell, as I'm feeling slightly stupid for what I'm about to ask.
So, if you put these downlight guards (whatever form they may be - ceramic pots or those proper ones you can buy) how is putting a cover on something that emits heat actually a good idea? If the argument is that if downlights can produce enough heat to somehow spark a fire (down the track) wouldn't putting a cover on it be just as dangerous? Wouldn't something open that lets the heat actually escape (but away from the insulation) a much better idea? I'm wondering what these downlight guards are made of. Are they plastic or something else? And if it's plastic then if the downlights produce as much heat as they say it does wouldn't the plastic melt? Or would the cover trap the heat, create condensation which could then drip onto the lights and cause other problems? [sneakersss] Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 28Jul 27, 2007 1:32 pm There is never a stupid question if you learn from the answer!
I used the ceramic pots mainly to stop the problem we were having where on a breezy day, the loose fill insulation in the roof space was falling down the gaps in the gimbal fitting, and making a mess in the kitchen - leaving a fine layer of dust & fluff on the benchtops & floor tiles. The priority with fitting them was to stop that, and any further benefits are simply a bonus to me. The ceramic pots I used have a drainage hole in the bottom of them (now the top when you flip it over). This hole is around 20mm in diameter. My downlight fittings are the gimbal type, and they have an air gap all the way around the gimbal (bar the 2 pivot pins). It's my reasoning, that as we know hot air rises, the heated air will rise out of the hole in the (now top) of the pot, to be replaced with cooler air flowing in around the gimbal fitting, thus creating a constant flow off cool air past the fitting. However, with the fixed fittings that are fairly well sealed against the ceiling, this air circulation probably won't happen. I have been up in the roof at night, and felt the pots after the lights have been on for 4 hours, and they are nice & warm, but would not be any hotter than 50 degrees C, as you can comfortably hold your hand on them. I was concerned that if I used a metal shield, then it could heat up & tranfer heat to the outside of it, where the insulation gathers around. Then I thought about open-top metal shields - like say a large fruit tin with both ends removed, but then I was back to the worry that leaves & debris entering the roof space (we have no sarking) could fall in there & sit on the back of the halogen bulb - the hottest point you can access from the roof side. Which then lead me back to the ceramic pots: 1. They don't burn. 2. The drain hole location makes it difficult for debris to enter. 3. They don't conduct electricity (you nver know when a fault may occur) 4. They have less heat transfer than metal, and while they may hold the heat for longer, they are effectively an insulator in their own right - protecting the loose fill insulation that gathers up around them. And one of the very important factors: 5. They are cheap! Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 30Jul 27, 2007 2:20 pm commodorenut There is never a stupid question if you learn from the answer ... And one of the very important factors: 5. They are cheap! And learn I did. Thank you very much for that very insightful post. Now, I'm off to buy some ceramic pots. But just one last question... Have you secured the ceramic pots in some way? Or are they just kind of sitting there? [sneakersss] Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 31Jul 27, 2007 2:29 pm Don't most new houses these days have downlights in them , anyways??
What are the odds of this happening, is this a real cause for concern? Our new house does not have any extra insulation, just the normal insulation supplied by the builder, just batts I think. do I still need to be wary of fires?? Our Adenbrook home was completed in September. Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 32Jul 27, 2007 2:47 pm As I said earlier it is a requirement that guards, usually made from rolled sheetmetal or similar, be used as a guard or barrier around downlights. This is to ensure that insulation does not contact the globe direcly which is very hot.
I think cement sheet or similar on top of the guard will be OK as its not the ambient temp that can spark ignition but the direct contact of blown in insulation, and to some degree batts. I have seen Batts (fibreglass) sitting up against downlights, creat a black burnt section due to the heat but not ever catch on fire. None the less its good to check. ps seeing as these downlight kits are so readily available, and have an ordinary plug attached its not unlikely many people would adopt the approach of di it yourself. Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 33Jul 27, 2007 2:49 pm YSSIM Have you secured the ceramic pots in some way? Or are they just kind of sitting there? I have just sat them over the light fitting. I figure the weight of them is enough to hold them in place, whilst not being heavy enough to 'sag' the ceiling. They are the 6" type terracotta coloured tapered-side pots you see everywhere at nurseries & bunnings. Also, with the transformers, I sat them on top of the insulation adjacent to the pots, on offcuts of villaboard (bathroom wall sheeting) approx 200mm wide by 200-300mm long. I put them up on this so they are not just resting on the insulation - or worse still, how I found mine - nestled into the loose fill insulation if there wasn't a ceiling joist nearby (only a few were fitted to the joists if they were close). One big mistake I made: The leads are only just long enough to reach from the globe holder, out of the drain hole in the pot, and into the x-former. I found out later that I can't replace a globe from within the house as there isn't enough length to get the holder out of the fitting. My next plan is to drill a "lead hole" half way up the side of each pot & feed the wires from the X-former to the globe through that hole. You can drill these pots easily with a masonry drill in a cordless (with no hammer action). Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 35Jul 27, 2007 6:21 pm aaurora Don't most new houses these days have downlights in them , anyways?? Not on mine! We didn't install any as we were told that downlights drive your electricity bills nuts.... aaurora What are the odds of this happening, is this a real cause for concern? Our new house does not have any extra insulation, just the normal insulation supplied by the builder, just batts I think. do I still need to be wary of fires?? If it's installed by licensed eletrician, you shouldn't have to worry about it. I also found some information from greenhouse.gov.au web site, and posted it here on my blog: http://building-our-first-house.blogspot.com/2007/07/others009-follow-up-on-downlights-fire.html Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 36Jul 27, 2007 6:30 pm double07 Hang on. This just occurred to me. I remember reading a lot of places that insulation is supposed to be non-combustible. Yes it is fire retardant. But the older stuff that is chemically treated can loose its fire retardation over time, so I have heard, not sure if it has merit or not. Fibreglass batts would be my choice of insulation. Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 37Jul 30, 2007 9:44 am ahuang Not on mine! We didn't install any as we were told that downlights drive your electricity bills nuts.... Is this true? How much extra would you be looking at per bill? Our Adenbrook home was completed in September. Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 38Jul 30, 2007 11:32 am aaurora ahuang Not on mine! We didn't install any as we were told that downlights drive your electricity bills nuts.... Is this true? How much extra would you be looking at per bill? Sorry, I don't have any figure to answer that question. But I do remember reading one of the post somewhere in this forum talking about some LED based downlights which doesn't generate that much heat and are much cheaper with the bill. May be someone can help about this? Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 39Jul 30, 2007 11:34 am Halogen downlights are the ones that are pricey - especially because where you might use a single 100w bulb (incandescent) for a room - you'd need anywhere between 4-8 downlights - and even though they may be marked low voltage, the transformer also requires power.
You can get CFL downlights - similar to the energy saver bulbs - but use way less electricity. Plenty of information on the NECO site. Re: downlights setting fire to insulation in the roof 40Jul 31, 2007 12:56 pm ahuang aaurora ahuang Not on mine! We didn't install any as we were told that downlights drive your electricity bills nuts.... Is this true? How much extra would you be looking at per bill? Sorry, I don't have any figure to answer that question. But I do remember reading one of the post somewhere in this forum talking about some LED based downlights which doesn't generate that much heat and are much cheaper with the bill. May be someone can help about this? There was a bit of LED discussion in this thread: https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.p ... ght=#13580 LED prices are coming down almost weekly and their quality is going up every few months. Once our halogens start dying we will be replacing them with luxeon LEDs. We are tossing up between a Jarrahdale radiant wood fire (the Pioneer) and a convection wood fire (Innovator or Countryman) but cannot decide on which type of wood fire is… 0 4057 Need some advice. Living in a townhouse with one common wall, recently we have discovered that the fire separation wall is incomplete and on further investigation, support… 0 3506 Not back peddling at all. You seem to have issues with comprehension my friend. Guy fcked up, he's considering being dishonest with his bank and hiding it. It will end… 21 12566 |