Browse Forums Flooring & Floor Covering 1 Sep 17, 2014 9:54 am Being in the industry for a long time I made a decision over 10 years ago to never use solvent/spirit based finishes because I didn't want to expose myself or my workers to the isocyanates that are there to assist in the drying of the finishes. And are still present about three times the amount of time it takes for the actual smell to dissipate. As such the two main alternatives are either water based finishes or hardwax oils. I do like the warm, character driven feel of the Hardwax Oils, in particular OSMO and Treatex and they are available in a Matt or Satin finish. However the bulk of floors I finish are with Bona Traffic - the most popular floor finish in the world. The first reason the water based finishes are the most popular in the world is because of the stringent restrictions placed on the isocyanate levels in floor finishes used by countries in the European Union, which has forced the industry to take a more environmentally friendly approach. Australia has been a lot slower in the uptake because of stubborn floorsanders and the extra cost. The solvent based finishes are around $2.00 per sqm, whilst the higher quality water based finishes are around $4.00 per sqm. Which translates to $5.00 for 2 coats plus primer as opposed to $10 for a water based product. Or an extra $500 for a regular house. For me though I prefer the water based finishes not just because they are deemed non-toxic but also because they are non-yellowing. The yellowing of the solvent based finishes is quite stark, however the water based finishes stay much more loyal to the actual colour of the timber. I have a pic somewhere of a room I coated for a mate with a water based finish which is married up to a traditional coated floor - the colour difference is stark. As for hardness, I think there does tend to be some disinformation floating around. A correctly applied and maintained water based finish is as hard as any floor finish available. Bona Traffic is the floor finish in the Australian National Gallery, National Portrait Gallery, London Museum etc These places are high traffic areas. I personally put Bona Traffic down on King's Hall in Old Parliament House after they had 10 years of problems trying to maintain a traditional finish which had been maintained with Gemini but kept peeling and flaking. 5 years after I sealed the floor, the client couldn't be happier. 400,000 visitors per year. I also installed a timber feature in the National Arboretum which I then sealed with Bona non-slip. 700,000 visitors per year and still no problems. To translate that into a household would be about 380 visits to a kitchen by a family of 5 every day for 365 days. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 2Sep 18, 2014 7:43 am Congratulations.....In your first sentence you told the truth.... You use water based because you don't want to expose YOURSELF or your workers. It has nothing to do with exposing your clients. Solvent based is completely harmless when dry. At best extremely mild when wet which no one is there whilst it is wet. We put it on and leave. The floor is wet so no one can walk on it. Water based uses sprout the harmful effects of isocyanates. We are not coating your floors with iscocyante. It is one small ingredient. The comparison is you should never ever again hold a mobile phone to your ear because it emits radiation. So does your colour television. When colour tv's came out there was an out cry they would give everyone radiation poisoning , not to mention microwave ovens. Its people with agenda's. Its a storm in a tea cup. How many deaths World wide have been attributed to PURE ISOCYANATE in its deadliest form? NONE. Not a single one worldwide EVER. But solvant based is not pure iscocyanate. I can use any product i like. If the Water based companies ever get it right, I may use it, in very limited circumstances. Facts are, it doesn't look any good, its no where near as hard and it doesn't protect the timber and it doesn't last. The number one thing we do is follow arouund companies that only use Water Based product and we sand it off, and restore the floor. Most owners are far too embarrassed that they were talked into such rubbish. As for your non yellow claim HAH....Please, its so milky instantly you wouldn't be able to see if it yellowed. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Here is your side by side comparison. That MILKY white Non yellow rubbish is brand new Water based BONA. Beside the red thinners based two-pak. The owner was furious. She is a dancer. The water based finish was an insult to her feet. It is not smooth under foot. It is rough and textured. It was aweful, and she was told it would match. I know I should save my breath and just continue to show pictures and expose water based polsih for what it is RUBBISH. I love the way you skirt around the fact that water based isn't shiny at all......You say its still available in a satin or a matt. What you mean is its only available in a satin or a matt, because they still cannot get it to shine. It is so dull, they had so many complaints, that they renamed the gloss SATIN. Because it has no shine. The truth is out. It is not pet friendly as water based companies sprout. Dog pee goes straight through it and makes a filthy black stain deep in the timber. Oh I have many pictures. In time i will release all the pictures. Water Based is not taken over...It is the Vocal MINORITY. The silent Majority are starting to speak up. And don't pull the over seas card, I got an email a few months back, I need to dig up or a guy in Canada, who now has 6 coats of Bona on his floor....He is very unhappy, because its a black butt floor. The tannin bleed is horrendous. As for being in the industry a long time, my father in law has been using Solvant based polish for 51 years, and I have used it for 25 years. Been in it every single day. Both are in perfect health, and my father iun law smokes two packs a day and drinks like a fish. He still sands floors everyday. So enough with the exposing one self to it. The only thing that is being exposed is the rubbish water bourne products that are more expensive because the R & D is killing them, as they have to continually reformulate as it is rubbish. I hope they do get it right......but buyer beware, don't be there guinea pig. One last thought, water based claims to have a NON toxic finish....They Do have ONE. Water based claim to be as hard as two pack ......They also have ONE. But they are not one and the same product. The hard one has an additive far more deadly than isocyanate in it. We won't even use it. And as for the true non toxic one, its so soft no one uses it as it doesn't even last 6 months. There you have it, the ugly truth. But pictures will prevail. A picture says 1000 words. See above at the milky mess. Floor Sanding Brisbane with The Perfect Process. Only at Quicksand & Polish. Mark. Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/quicksandandpolish Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 3Sep 18, 2014 8:01 am And here is the case why not to use it. This is what it does to your floor. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Tannin Bleed. A picture says 1,000 words. This is Water Based in all its glory. Floor Sanding Brisbane with The Perfect Process. Only at Quicksand & Polish. Mark. Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/quicksandandpolish Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 4Sep 18, 2014 9:00 am I am not associated in anyway with the water based or solvent based flooring packages, so I have no axe to grind. Claimed toxicity of solvent based, is in part correct. But I don't know anyone who would want to spend a lot of time in a freshly painted room, and those doing the painting don't do it any slower than they can, and that's even water based... time is money they say. I'm guessing any smart operator is opening up windows to let the house breath, solvent or water based. Water based as mentioned does not really have a true glossy finish that solvent based does. I can't help but think that being water based, this staining issue will ever be solved, as water based paints during the drying process never gets a water tight seal, so there's always a chance of moisture getting through. In this tin foil hat/politically correct society, there seem to be plenty of people made more paranoid over the VOC levels in paints, but those short term concerns are easily overcome by well ventilating the house for a couple of days. The claims of high VOC releasing paints releasing their chemicals for years after being applied is absolute crap to me. The levels after a few days is miniscule. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 5Sep 18, 2014 7:10 pm I figured it would be nice to have a thread where someone in the industry could post some information about the finishes they use, and then they could maybe answer questions in a relatively objective environment. I had assumed that given there is already a surfeit of threads about alternative finishes it might come in handy for people to make up their own minds - I guess that was always going to be impractical though Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 6Sep 18, 2014 7:22 pm Go right ahead namtrak and post what you like. I was only adding my two bobs worth as an outsider with no axe to grind. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 7Sep 18, 2014 7:48 pm bpratt Go right ahead namtrak and post what you like........ No worries, I am happy to post what I have learnt and answer questions where possible. But I find the brow beating from some a bit boring TBH. I have a lot of friends in the industry who also swear by their preferred products, albiet solvent based, polyurethanes, water based, waxes and so on. Generally though there is a certain level of respect earnt from working in the same industry and even side by side from time to time, which means we can accept the choices we make as professionals. If people want specific advice about water based or hardwax finishes, or DIY floor sanding and installing then I am happy to help, otherwise I might just keep a lower profile for a while Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 8Sep 18, 2014 9:23 pm Just to be clear on Isocyanates. https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/isocyanates/index.html https://www.google.com.au/search?q=isoc ... 3&ie=UTF-8 Seems to be a lot of information on the health effects of isocyanates. Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 9Sep 20, 2014 1:11 pm There' a lot of information on the net on every subject. Did you know that if some people eat peanut butter they will drop dead almost instantly. So should we ban peanut butter? Worldwide there has been many many deaths from it. Yet not a single death from isocyanate. Puts it in perspective a little. Peanut butter is more harmful to humans than isocyanate. I have no axe to grind. If my customers request water based finish, I laugh at them at first, make a few jokes and then dig deeper as to why they want it. I discuss with them all of the huge negatives , so that if they persist, they go in with their eye wide open. When you dig a little deeper, most see the light of day and go with a tried and proven product that has been trusted for more than 6 decades. I just get annoyed at the alarmist attitude. It proves the water based product is seriously lacking, that they have to infer alarming stories to try and discredit two-pack. If water based was any where near as good , I would use it. But until they perfect it, I won't use my clients as guinea pigs on something they constantly change the formula, as it is constantly failing. It doesn't last, its not shiny and it doesn't protect. Therefore there is no real point to use it. Two-pack is dry long before the customer gets near it. We are in it wet everyday and we use exactly Zero protection. Because that is what is needed. Zero! 25 years and no health concerns in it everyday. My father in law 51 years in it everyday, no health concerns. My advice, stay away from that peanut butter.....That's the real deadly thing here. : ) Floor Sanding Brisbane with The Perfect Process. Only at Quicksand & Polish. Mark. Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/quicksandandpolish Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 10Sep 20, 2014 7:47 pm Methyl Isocyanate was the chemical in the Bhopal disaster in 1984 that killed 3000+ people and caused around 4000 permanent injuries Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 11Sep 23, 2014 3:18 pm namtrak Methyl Isocyanate was the chemical in the Bhopal disaster in 1984 that killed 3000+ people and caused around 4000 permanent injuries So an explosion killed people. Are you serious. I think any rationale has long since left the building. So Petrol explosions kill people, lets not use petrol. I'll just post fix ups now for the viewers to see for themself. Before....Floor with Water Based Stain.. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ After We fixed another Waterbased floor. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Two-Pack Polyurethane. N.B. No person died or was harmed in the fixing of this floor. Floor Sanding Brisbane with The Perfect Process. Only at Quicksand & Polish. Mark. Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/quicksandandpolish Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 12Sep 24, 2014 8:53 am Actually it wasn't the explosion - it was the gas cloud of Methyl Isocyanate that killed people. The American Centre for Disease Control has reported 7 deaths directly attributed to Asthma related attacks triggered by exposure to isocyanate's. Saying isocyanates aren't responsible for death or injury is akin to to how we treated asbestos in the 60's and 70's. If nearly every country in the world is restricting these chemicals more and more, then I guess if it feels like poo, looks like poo and smells like poo - I dont need to taste it. I don't understand the logic, but I can't start posting pics of floors I've redone with a water based finish. Every single reno has had solvent based finishes on them, and the client has opted for a non-yellowing non-toxic finish. I think you would be better served posting up pics of the good floors you have done, and when a question arises I will post up pics of the good floors I have done. Let the reader decide..... Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 13Sep 27, 2014 1:08 am qsand you will find people who are unwell with auto immune and respiratory disorders who can't tolerate the chemicals. Especially little kids. It's often recommended these people don't knowingly apply high VOC finishes to their home surfaces. Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 14Sep 29, 2014 8:18 am joannek qsand you will find people who are unwell with auto immune and respiratory disorders who can't tolerate the chemicals. Especially little kids. It's often recommended these people don't knowingly apply high VOC finishes to their home surfaces. Hi Joannek, for the very few people in this situation, I truely feel for. That was my point appoint the peanut butter. Its so very few people. Those people have way more concerns on their mind than protecting timber. They need and care about their child not their floor or walls. For the rest of the population, these products do not protect and they do not last and they will destroy your floor. ( I shall continue to post examples) See above pics. Its the water based that is the poo poo, and I don't feel the need to spread poo poo on peoples floors as it doesn't protect them. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Floor Sanding Brisbane with The Perfect Process. Only at Quicksand & Polish. Mark. Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/quicksandandpolish Re: The case for Water Based finishes. 15Oct 01, 2014 8:11 am Another Water Based floor that did not even last 2 years. The owners were talked into it. They have thinners based upstairs that has lasted 12 years. So I restored the new downstairs to Thinners based. This is just two coats. Final coat today. As I have previously stated, the majority of our work these days is following around the water based companies and sanding off the destruction and restoring it back to something that will last. You see the pics and you judge. Would you be happy if this was your two year old floor? Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ And now Restored. Before after During and After two coats. You be the judge. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Floor Sanding Brisbane with The Perfect Process. Only at Quicksand & Polish. Mark. 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