Browse Forums Flooring & Floor Covering 1 Feb 25, 2010 10:58 am Hi there, new to this forum. I have done a quick search to the answer for my question, but no luck. I am having 100% wool carpet in my new home, and the salesman has specified "gold" underlay for the theatre room but dunlop carpet mate standard for the rest (this is approx 6mm thick). I got a quote from another retailer and they specified 80/20 wool/nylon mix with gold underlay throughout, and this was about $1500 cheaper. I contacted the original retailer who talked down the 80/20 mix and said that gold would provide too much bounce and the carpet could suffer. Suitably confused, I wonder what other people think. Thanks. Re: Carpet underlay 2Feb 26, 2010 5:05 pm You have to compare apples with apples. You have to compare pile weight with pile weight, height for height. There can be a number of differences. What makes a carpet a quality carpet, will be the density of the pile, (how close the tufts are to each other) as well as backing materials and even the latex that holds it all together. There are many variables here. A 100% wool will perform very well and an 80%wool 20% nylon will also perform well, given that they have the very same amount and density of pile. A 50/50 wool and polyproplylene (olefin) will not perform anywhere near as well but will be a lot cheaper than the 80 /20 Wool, Nylon blend. Just to add confusion, there are now 80% wool and 20% meltable polyesters (a tuft locking process to help prevent the pile untwisting) that are now available in Australia. The jury is out on wether that will create improvements or problems. Basically pick a carpet that you like and get a good firm underlay under the lot. The underlay will not make a big difference in cost, but will make a big difference in performance. The softer the underlay the more the backing of the carpet flexes. Too much flex and the carpet will eventually delaminate well before it is otherwise worn out. The carpet fibre is the most expensive part of the carpet. You can bet that a cheaper carpet will have either a lot more cheaper pile content (like the 50 /50 wool and polypropylene) or it will simply have a more sparsely tufted pile to keep the price down. Pick a carpet that you like and decide on a firm underlay for it all and tell the retailer you are getting 3 quotes and he/she will be competative with the carpet that you pick. The more carpet retailers you visit, the more confused you will become as they will all tell you that the other retailer is wrong and they are right. cheers Col Nation For information on caring for wool and other carpet and upholstery go to www.woolsafe.com.au Re: Carpet underlay 3Feb 26, 2010 6:51 pm More confusion added. Also 'Horses for Courses'. A commercial U/L under a cheaper carpet in a rental, is a waste of money. When the carpet needs replacing, the U/L is often stained/contaminated and has to be replaced as well. I am a firm believer that incorrect laying has a bigger impact on the carpet performance, than the choice of U/L that is used. If the carpet is only knee-kicked, it will bubble in the future and decrease the life of the carpet and lead to all sorts of problems. Properly power-stretched, a carpet should retain its tension for the life of the carpet. Back to the original post, The 'gold' U/L is only one grade up from the 'black' basic rubber, it is just thicker. In my experience, it has the same problems of compaction etc as the black, and has variable quality from batch to batch. Better quality U/L are definitely better in this regard. Mungoose If the first retailer thought that the gold would have had too much 'bounce', why was he putting it in the theatre room? Re: Carpet underlay 4Feb 26, 2010 9:08 pm Mark and Col, thanks for the replies. I think because the theatre room won't have a lot of traffic, the gold is OK and it provides a bit more sound insulation (or at least is more acoustically friendly - my thoughts and I'm probably totally wrong!). For the rest of the carpeted areas, Dunlop carpet mate standard is specified. Do you think this is broadly suitable I'll try and find out about pile weight and height etc - I know there are varying qualities of Dunlop underlays, and elsewhere in this forum people have mentioned excellay. Like most people, I assumed that the softer the carpet felt underfoot the better, but I take your points about flexing. I will also enquire about power stretching. I'm sure though that if this isn't done the salesman will regale me with stories about why knee kicking is better! Re: Carpet underlay 5Feb 27, 2010 8:35 am The softer it is the worse it is. You pay more, to get higher comfort levels, but it's not as good for your carpet. Some commercial jobs direct stick carpet with no underlay..... Re: Carpet underlay 6Feb 27, 2010 1:51 pm MarkS, you make well informed points. If you were to look through some of my ramblings here for some time, you would see I have made the same points about having carpets well laid. But the frustration is, its well & good to make these recommendations, but in most cases consumers cannot find carpet installers who can or do power-stretch carpets. It has become the norm in most cases that installers don't use a power-stretcher at all or only in certain cases (such as very large rooms). There have been a number of times that on my advice, carpet customers have asked their retailer about powerstretching, seam sealing etc, and they have no luck because the retailer uses installers who wouldn't know one end of a power-stretcher from another! So typically the retailers still want to win the sale, and belittle the need. It takes a discerning and determined customer to cut through the crap and get a quality installation these days! BTW which area are you in, and do you know of many installers who use a p/s as usual practice? Ash. Re: Carpet underlay 7Mar 02, 2010 6:04 pm Before we start the everlong "beat up on the retailer" thing.....how about we consider 1 thing. Consumers DONT want to pay for flooring. They want it is cheap as they can get it. Most put a grudge on the purchase and try to screw the retailer down to ridiculous margins and get 23 quotes on 23 different carpets with 23 different versions of their plan (each retailer running it their own way). As an expert in my field, with 18 years experience, both in manufacturing, importing and sourcing overseas and retailing, including interior design exposure and so forth, what's a fair rate for my time and advice ? ZERO is the industry standard. If a customer can buy it cheaper from the 2 amigos down the road who paid a few bob last week for their Carpet C$&@$ franchise, even though they are newbies, they do!!!! So my point is this. Does the "good" retailer advertise that I am more expensive but you a. Get what you pay for (we don't switch carpet weights on you like many do) b. Get the right advice on any fibre, rather than pushing them onto your stocklines and c. Get the right underlay from either supplier of your choice and d. Get a properly trained layer who is old school qualified. That all costs $. Competition and peoples want to screw the retailer has lead to people cutting corners - industry wide. Wether it's putting extra latex into a rug to make it feel heavier (and more $) or switching carpets before laying (it still happens people), or laying on existing underlay when the clients are not home (an old trick, still carried out from time go time), and using cowboy installers who work for cheaper $$$. Putting cross joins all through jobs, but factory joining it before it goes out.......I could go on forever. Pay peanuts get monkies is so true. Pay as much as you can and deal with people who know their stuff. Sorry for the rant. It's a market driven scenario is my point. The race to be the cheapest !!! How many people buy the cheapest car on the market ? Or do you try to spend a bit more to get a reliable brand, or buy from a dealer who backs up the car with the factory warranty.....not all retailers are bad !!!!!! Re: Carpet underlay 8Mar 02, 2010 6:15 pm Ash it's the same in cleaning the stuff. I would no more let a 3 rooms for 50 bucks guy into my house than a bus load of Jehovahs Wittnesses! But people do. Every minute of the day some idiot is getting the "Its too good to be true" deal from their local ******* (I used to work for the local post office but got a package and bought a van and some second hand cleaning equipment and paid abc some $ to use their name guy). Like I use people that charge me 2 -300 minimum for 3 - 4 rooms. But they are PROS. They are technicians. Like Ash and Col. More people should use good cleaners. More people should deal with good retailers. Everyone should pay more for flooring and then we can hire better people and all is fixed........but oh how to do this......mission impossible I know. So we go back to competiting with the cretins for marketshare!!!! Re: Carpet underlay 9Mar 03, 2010 12:16 am Anthony, that's a fair rant there. I commiserate with you and share your frustration. Yes, all too often consumers fall for the short sighted trap of false economy, and go for cheap choices and installations. I have harped on for ages for consumers to be more discerning and make better choices. But whilst market trends and pressures certainly do make it difficult, I'm certain that by offering and recommending better quality floorcoverings and installation, a retailer can STAND OUT FROM THE CROWD rather than caving in to the norm of mediocrity. The carpet cleaning industry is a very good example. It took people like Leo Powell to elevate the mindset of select carpet cleaners, and transform them into highly respected and well paid technicians. Whilst there are still the '$50 for 3 rooms' guys out there, quality technicians position themselves in the market place in a very different way. When consumers experience the difference, they are very happy to pay much higher prices if it means their investment is cleaned correctly. I often speak with customers, and they would have been perfectly happy to have paid 20% or more for their carpets to be laid properly on underlay that will go the distance. But the sheep like retailer told them that Bridestone Gold WAS the best underlay, and never told them they could have avoided that cross join in their sisal carpet that is now coming loose because the layer didn't seam seal! Seriously, retailers seem to be so bloody conscious of winning the sale based on PRICE that they assume noone wants to pay more. That is just lunacy! They happily pay for large areas of expensive timber, porcelains, marble, granite and every manner of quality surface, but the same customers go to a carpet retailer and they are not even shown the benefits of premium carpets, underlays and fitting!!! Its about time that MORE retailers stood up and marketed high quality carpet installations for the great benefits they provide, and let the others play the silly nonsense of selling very average carpets to very uninformed consumers! Ash. Re: Carpet underlay 10Mar 03, 2010 8:01 pm The thing is that people do not put enough of a value on their floors (both buying them and caring for them) coupled with a very low barrier of entry to get into this game. I could open accounts with all the major suppliers and set-up a shop for $30k overnight and if I couldn't get an account, I could just buy from a mate who would wholesale to me any product, no matter how exclusive or from what mill..........its a disgrace.......so any industry where it costs nothing to get into it (unless you pay gazillions for a franchise) invites these issues on itself imo. We had a retailer in Melbourne go down last year, taking thousands and thousands of dollars of deposits with them.........common. Why do people still deal with these "cheap" alternatives....and then have the hide to ring me for advice when the cowboys have wrecked their floor ............anyway...........build a bridge I guess Pay more for flooring and get what you pay for !!!!! Re: Carpet underlay 11Mar 03, 2010 8:49 pm royalblue Anthony, that's a fair rant there. I commiserate with you and share your frustration. Yes, all too often consumers fall for the short sighted trap of false economy, and go for cheap choices and installations. I have harped on for ages for consumers to be more discerning and make better choices. But whilst market trends and pressures certainly do make it difficult, I'm certain that by offering and recommending better quality floorcoverings and installation, a retailer can STAND OUT FROM THE CROWD rather than caving in to the norm of mediocrity. The carpet cleaning industry is a very good example. It took people like Leo Powell to elevate the mindset of select carpet cleaners, and transform them into highly respected and well paid technicians. Whilst there are still the '$50 for 3 rooms' guys out there, quality technicians position themselves in the market place in a very different way. When consumers experience the difference, they are very happy to pay much higher prices if it means their investment is cleaned correctly. I often speak with customers, and they would have been perfectly happy to have paid 20% or more for their carpets to be laid properly on underlay that will go the distance. But the sheep like retailer told them that Bridestone Gold WAS the best underlay, and never told them they could have avoided that cross join in their sisal carpet that is now coming loose because the layer didn't seam seal! Seriously, retailers seem to be so bloody conscious of winning the sale based on PRICE that they assume noone wants to pay more. That is just lunacy! They happily pay for large areas of expensive timber, porcelains, marble, granite and every manner of quality surface, but the same customers go to a carpet retailer and they are not even shown the benefits of premium carpets, underlays and fitting!!! Its about time that MORE retailers stood up and marketed high quality carpet installations for the great benefits they provide, and let the others play the silly nonsense of selling very average carpets to very uninformed consumers! Ash. Spot on. I agree with you totally, Ash One point I will made to Anthony, is that customer still pays the same laying price for a Knee-kick Cowboy compared to a properly experienced power-stretched job. Tell me it is not so. royalblue MarkS, you make well informed points. If you were to look through some of my ramblings here for some time, you would see I have made the same points about having carpets well laid. But the frustration is, its well & good to make these recommendations, but in most cases consumers cannot find carpet installers who can or do power-stretch carpets. It has become the norm in most cases that installers don't use a power-stretcher at all or only in certain cases (such as very large rooms). There have been a number of times that on my advice, carpet customers have asked their retailer about powerstretching, seam sealing etc, and they have no luck because the retailer uses installers who wouldn't know one end of a power-stretcher from another! So typically the retailers still want to win the sale, and belittle the need. It takes a discerning and determined customer to cut through the crap and get a quality installation these days! BTW which area are you in, and do you know of many installers who use a p/s as usual practice? Ash. I'm new here, but I have read some of your ramblings,as you say. I am in North-West NSW. I ALWAYS use a stretcher. If I did not, I would have been a cripple years ago, and would not have been doing this job for the last 37 years. In my area, I have 'educated' the retailers that a stretcher must be used all the time, and they know the significance of its use. Better quality job and a satisfied customer and reduced callbacks. Re: Carpet underlay 12Mar 05, 2010 2:31 pm Not always. I used to know a retailer who ONLY used to use a three man team he Nick-named the three amigos. They worked for next to nicks (14 a metre). They never seam sealed, didn't know what a stretcher was. They had a couple of stanleys and a couple of kickers and that was it. But the going rate is normally thesaale for all layers (early 20,s), so I understand your point. I pay over the market rate to make sure I get a good job, but when it comes down to some of the big deals, the extra 5 bucks I pay can hurt my ability to out quote someone. You have to rely on service and quality to win you the biz, rather than competing with the bottom feeders. As an installer, can youtell me why none of the layers I use (I draw on 24 layers/teams) want to vacuum a job when they are done ? Even for extra $$$. I can't understand it. I have offered good $, but they won't budge.... What's your thoughts ? Re: Carpet underlay 13Mar 05, 2010 8:21 pm I do vacuum. Well for the last 10 yrs, I have done it. No extra either. The other layers may not want to do it, as it is one extra thing they have to carry on the job. If they just knee-kick, they have just one toolbox to take to the job. Time is another factor, but if you offered to pay them for it and they don't want to, I can't understand that. Maybe just want to rush to the next job. A job that is clean when you leave it, means the customer can just move their furnishings back in straight away. There is no initial negative feeling of them having to finish your job. This is a definite plus for customer service. Re: Carpet underlay 14Mar 07, 2010 10:11 pm The mob i work for insist we vacuum all jobs. We have been vacuuming in Perth for years now. Some places send out work room boys to vacuum, others supply vacuums. We get $1 a meter to vacuum. I consider it part of the job, oh and our timber layers have just been instructed to mop all floors on completion as-well. Maybe insist on vacuuming Anthony, they did to us, it took a while but everyone came around in the end. Ironically it was the older more experienced layers who gave grief about vacuuming. Re: Carpet underlay 15Mar 08, 2010 6:58 pm Yes. It is the older layers who hold out The most to change. I have even offered $50 per job (regardless if it's 9 metres or 59 metres).....good $ I would have thought...... Hi l plan to install a self adhesive vinyl plank floor. l first need to attach masonite boards underlay to by plywood subfloor of my house. What size nails and how many… 0 8378 Jimbo73 I would use heaps of adhesive on each sheet and screw rather than nail. use as many as you like cheers Simeon 1 4074 1 11011 |