Browse Forums Flooring & Floor Covering 1 Jan 15, 2010 8:22 pm hi everyone, I have had a number of discussions with a forum-mate using PMs and I've decided I will publish the answer in an open forum, hope someone else will benefit of it. Just a note - I'm a 100% amateur in questions relating to timber and the current post is just a reflection of my own studies of the subject and interpretations. Unfortunately there are too many non-professional trades and even more arrogant sales I've encountered so far. What makes it even worse is a total lack of due diligence. My position is that a diligent non professional (being me) is better than a non-diligent one. Anyway, the results as is, just sharing my own way of thinking without an intention to influence anyone else's decision. Nevertheless I will appreciate any constructive feedback that will help me to make my flooring better and cheaper. After reading lots of stuff on the subject I found that hardness (measured in Janka) and density (measured in "something" with anything above 1000 being cool and above 1200 supa-cool) were not only important things. There were such elements as fungal and termite resistance and MOST IMPORTANTLY (and if your sales talks about it - you could consider they are probably trustworthy) -- MOISTUUUREEE. Timber is a live substance and throughout its life it will suck/release water from its environment. Such behaviour. unfortunately means timber will shrink and swell depending on the current conditions - resulting in gapping or capping effects or even in cracks depending on many factors. Moreover, depending on the way the actual board was sawn it will shrink/swell differently and so on, so on, so on. There are quite a few elements described on approx 120 pages of text available for free from Australian timber organisations (you could Google those or I could share those -- let me know, and thanks for the amount of boredom I have when travelling to Canberra on business (don't get me wrong, it is an amazing place but apart running, watching TV or drinking while in the hotel, there is not much to do) I read all those books. So, to cut the story short: - Bigger Janka = better durability but more problems with sanding and installing - the timber is just toooooooo strong - More density = good, but depends if timber cells are big. Bigger cells = more space for moisture inside the timber = more movement when the timber swells/shrinks. Blackbutt is a good example of it. - Shrinkage ratio - shows how far the timber will move - Such "minor" things as termite or fungi resistance. For me it was simple - what is not resistant was not worth attention - Wider boards mean more opportunity for movement. We decided we won't go beyond 80mm (130mm would require very-very-very quality timber like Grey Box.. unfortunately my name is not Bill and my last name is not Gates..) And yeah, engineered or finished floors were out of the question. Sanding is the only way to achieve the perfect surface and proper coating is the only way to achieve durability and longevity of the floor. Appearance and colour. Hmmm. it is a very personal thing. I'm not going to discuss my taste - everyone has their own. After reading, reading and reading we decided that Tallowwood was the way to go. Yesterday I visited a timber company, had a chat, and came back home with 4 samples (yes, I could not commit to spend anything without my wife approving it first). The samples and their descriptions: 1. Tallowwood - quite pale timber. I reckon polishing and applying gloss finish will improve it significantly, especially in smaller rooms. Relatively strong, Class 2 durable timber. Resistant to termites and fungi. 2. Grey Iron Bark - this is one of the hardest timbers you can get in Australia. A very calming and welcoming colour and an amazing pattern after applying oil. Class 1 durable, resistant to termites and fungi 3. Red Iron Bark - similar to Tallowwood but not fungi resistant. After oiling it became very red - to me it looked much better unfinished 4. Spotter Gum - very pleasant timber. Relatively hard and relatively durable. Not fungi resistant, pretty much like Grey IB but more grey'ish while Grey IB would be wormer The picture below shows all of them. An interesting thing on the photo Grey Iron Bark does not look like the timber does in the real life. Probably the camera adjusted its gamma dues to the red chair and a piece of Red Gum to the right. Red Gum and Tallowood look much better on the photo, probably due to the flash that accentuated grains otherwise not visible. I reckon it won't take you long to recognise where I applied oil. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ My visual test would rank timbers (from best to worst) as: 1. Grey IB 2. Spotted Gum 3. Tallowwood 4. Red IB (it was quite a disappointment actually) All timbers survived the test of my wife jumping on heels. My "pliers test" where I dropped pliers from about 1.2 m indicated the strength (from less impact to most impact). I agree that it was less visible on Tallowwood because it is the whitest of all timbers: 1. Grey IB 2. Tallowwood 3. Spotted Gum 4. Red IB The oil penetration test has shown that 24 hours after applying oil to the top it penetrated (from best to worst) 1. Tallowwood - about 5-7 mm of the 19 mm board Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ 2. Grey Ironbark - about 6-8 mm of the 19 mm board Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ 3. Spoted Gum and Red Ironbark -- 100% penetration Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ I also did tests with water (leaving a sponge overnight) and the results were pretty much the same as 24-hours oil penetration. Unfortunately once I got home (10 hours after removing the sponges) the water evaporated and it was not visible at all. This concludes my report. As you might have guessed my favourites have been Grey Ironbark and Tallowwood and both of those will find their place in my home. Grey IB covering our ground floor, stairs and alfresco due to its durability and an interesting pattern while Tallowood will add its brightness and innocence to the upstairs part of the house. Thanks for reading and good luck with your selection. Speaking money: - Tallowood - $42 m2 - Grey IB - $45 m2 Still very competitive comparing to the finished floor. Yes, it will require lots of labour and is not for faint hearted. But excuse me - money saved much better than money earned because you don't have to pay any tax on those! ... built a Promenade with Clarendon. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25104 20-10-09 - excavation and piering completed ... 12-04-10 - Basins fixed. Connecting to the electrical grid 23-04-10 - PCI 07-05-10 - HANDOVER! Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 2Jan 16, 2010 12:28 am A great read thanks I love timber as you can see this was our kitchen sink baby bath etc for 10 years, until the white ants ate it It is a Redgum burl cut into a 4 mtr Jarrah benchtop, my first real timber work... Oh the stump at the bottom where the plumbing goes is Blackb.utt http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv70/onc_artisan/worksphotos.jpg Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 3Jan 16, 2010 9:08 am Aaah, great reading!! Thank you!! Love both the grey IB and Twd!! Does the supplier you went to supply parquetry in grey IB and if yes, do you know the price? Thanks again! My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 4Jan 16, 2010 9:15 am Thanks guys. onc_artisan White ants?! Lex, those guys (north rivers timber) have plenty of stuff however as we were not after a parquetry floor we did not pay attention I've definitely seen lovely parquetry style blocks for decking made of something good (sorry do not remember) but, at the price of $80 per m2 they were a bit outside my target price range. I'm putting Grey IB decking that will cost me at about $5 per linear metre (a bit cheaper).. Back to experiments - this morning I found the Red IB and Spotted Gum were completely penetrated - spots of oil at the bottom. Gery IB was at 90% and Tallowwood is the winner - almost no progression comparing to where it was yesterday... ... built a Promenade with Clarendon. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25104 20-10-09 - excavation and piering completed ... 12-04-10 - Basins fixed. Connecting to the electrical grid 23-04-10 - PCI 07-05-10 - HANDOVER! Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 5Jan 16, 2010 9:31 am ...are yes whiteants I didn't even know because there were so many coats of food grade resin the sink held water until a knife went through it('bout 10 years) ...so not too bad. Fixed it though, made a concrete one that has sorted the little buggers out Getting back to the timber you are testing... the part of the saw log where the plank comes from is very important - re cupping etc. Good luck Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 6Jan 16, 2010 10:42 am Hey, not a problem about the parquetry prices ... I should really start making some trips myself ... Anyway, grey IB decking! My BH originally wanted decking, so maybe that's something worth putting back on the agenda (we just changed our minds and swang full on onto a concrete base with tiles or similar on top - I mean for the pergola). My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 7Jan 16, 2010 3:08 pm Hello Ebyelyakov, thanks for the info posted as very useful for me. I have been reading a lot too on timber floor and last option was either solid timber or pre-finished solid timber (only reason is cheaper) but i always want raw solid timber especially Grey IB or Spotted Gum. All flooring companies want to charge me quite a lot for the Grey IB so I am still holding on atm. You have got very good pricing there, does that incl GST? Can I pls put in a order with you as well if it means getting a good price for the quantity? I only need about 150 m2 atm. Are you going to hire someone to install & polish or DIY? I did the sanding & polish on my first home 15 years ago & I have learnt my lesson then so I wont do it this time thanks ttn Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 8Jan 16, 2010 9:55 pm The price for tallowwood leads me to believe you are looking at 80mm feature grade - beware that most feature grade tallowwood resembles a pin cushion as its full of borer holes. Standard grade would be a safer option. I don't see why fungal rot is an issue with an internally used species. Regardless, all timber will rot given the right enviroment. Generally, all hardwood timber flooring and deckng is H1 treated to kill any borers/pests in the timber. H1 gives full penetration into the sapwood. Heartwood is not penetrable even when treated to H6 levels Just because a timber is rated 'termite resistant' to Aust Standards does not mean termites will not eat it. I have seen 10"x10" ironbark posts near hollowed out from termites. Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 9Jan 17, 2010 12:04 am onc_artisan Re method of sawing - did you mean quartersawn and backsawn? (or whatever the names are). Agree on that but having moisture barrier and proper installation should help. And this is why we decided to go with 80mm boards only. 130mm looked to me more like a gamble. Lex hehe.. Having a deck is a good thing. However, my first phase will concern only finishing the alfresco. Almost a deck ttn You are welcome. A linear metre of Grey Ironbark was $3.69 ext gst. I have finalised the order and it will be delivered by April-May -- as soon as the house gets finished. They will be storing the timber at their warehouse. So, I'm not sure I will be able to modify the order but you could try talking to them - 150m2 is a significant amount (does it include 5-10% for wastage?) The amount of Grey IB I'm getting was 217m2 so your appetite may be well within the bargaining power. It might be worth trying to call the vendor (Northern River Timber - http://www.northernriverstimber.com.au) and ask for Bill. You could mention my name (Eugene) and see if he can make you the same deal. I'm going to engage a guy I was recommended by a colleague who had them installing his floor a year ago. The guy would charge me $60 per hour which sounded like a good deal. THE estimate was 4 days for him and me to finish 350m2 of timber flooring. I'm confident about sanding and polishing however, should have problems I always be able to call those guys for help Dukekamaya I dunno much about fungi but to me timber not affected by fungi sounded as a safer option anyhow The grade I'm getting is called character - probably the other name for a feature grade. I understand there could be some imperfections however, considering possibility to use fillers and sanding-polishing everything the finish should be ok. I'm happy with having features being visible - looks to me just more alive and natural. With termites you're right - it may take just a bit longer for them to eat IB comparing to other kinds of timber ... built a Promenade with Clarendon. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25104 20-10-09 - excavation and piering completed ... 12-04-10 - Basins fixed. Connecting to the electrical grid 23-04-10 - PCI 07-05-10 - HANDOVER! Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 10Jan 17, 2010 8:14 am The boards in this house are 180mm, How awesome I will post some pics when I get back home Never seen a hotel inside a house before Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 11Jan 17, 2010 8:39 am ebyelyakov ttn You are welcome. A linear metre of Grey Ironbark was $3.69 ext gst. I have finalised the order and it will be delivered by April-May -- as soon as the house gets finished. They will be storing the timber at their warehouse. So, I'm not sure I will be able to modify the order but you could try talking to them - 150m2 is a significant amount (does it include 5-10% for wastage?) The amount of Grey IB I'm getting was 217m2 so your appetite may be well within the bargaining power. It might be worth trying to call the vendor (Northern River Timber - http://www.northernriverstimber.com.au) and ask for Bill. You could mention my name (Eugene) and see if he can make you the same deal. I'm going to engage a guy I was recommended by a colleague who had them installing his floor a year ago. The guy would charge me $60 per hour which sounded like a good deal. THE estimate was 4 days for him and me to finish 350m2 of timber flooring. I'm confident about sanding and polishing however, should have problems I always be able to call those guys for help ebyelyakov, do you know Boral or Northern River Timber Grey IB which is better? I can get good discount on Boral timber as well (still dearer than your price) as I have a friend working there. you're going to install on batten or plywood? I have 95m2 on concrete & 45m2 on existing cypress floor. thanks ttn Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 12Jan 17, 2010 9:11 am I have been doing some reading myself on timbers because we have decided to go with parquetry flooring roughly 100mtr2 of it . blackbutt has a janka rating of 9.1 and tallowood is a 8.6 so interms of hardness its similar,but in terms of density blackutt is a failure ,why is that? we are focusing on texture ! hardness! availabilty! price ! and customer service of the provider . paruetry has less movement because its laid in small blocks ,but Iam concerned the moisture barrier (selleys) is it suffiecient ? shouldnt a underlay be used . Iam thinking 10 to 15 years after instaltion,the moisture barrier on a new concrete slab ,may not suffice and cause problems http://masterplus.com.au/ check this sight out we are thinking of going with blackbutt on jarrah for all you parquetry fans tell me what you think!! Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 13Jan 17, 2010 10:55 am andy ... paruetry has less movement because its laid in small blocks ,but Iam concerned the moisture barrier (selleys) is it suffiecient ? shouldnt a underlay be used . Iam thinking 10 to 15 years after instaltion,the moisture barrier on a new concrete slab ,may not suffice and cause problems ... We're also thinking of parquetry for ground floor. What did you mean with "the moisture barrier on a new concrete slab"? What moisture barrier are you referring to - is it Selleys VBS VAPOUR BARRIER (the coating type)? So, do you mean you'll coat the green slab with that sealant and then just glue the timber directly onto it? You are also mentioning underlay as not being used - why? What was recommended by your installer? My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 14Jan 17, 2010 11:14 am Quote: do you know Boral or Northern River Timber Grey IB which is better? I can get good discount on Boral timber as well (still dearer than your price) as I have a friend working there. you're going to install on batten or plywood? I have 95m2 on concrete & 45m2 on existing cypress floor. Oh. I would not have a clue which one is better. The tree is the tree - no more and no less. I'm not an expert (it is hard be working for IBM and claim much knowledge about timbers) but generally speaking, they should be pretty much the same. Grading standards are quite high-level, based on what I read on http://www.timber.org.au and other specialised sites. All grading is done based on how it looks and therefore the quality can (should?) be assumed the same regardless of the grade. To me such a question sounds similar to "is bayer's aspiring at $6.99 better that woolworths own aspirin at $0.99 considering each tablet contains exactly 300 mg of aspirin?" Anyway these are my own thoughts and I may be very-very wrong. The only difference I could think of if the way of storing timber, the way of timbers were sawn and dried (will depend on particular mill I think). Boral could possibly claim having superior condition in their warehouses and therefore controller levels of moisture and so one. However, warehouse conditions and in your house will unlikely be the same and leaving timber inside the building would be a good way to ensure it adapts to the local conditions. From this point of view - the way of storing does not really matter assuming the timber comes clean and insect free. Unfortunately (money wise) plywood seems to provide a better quality underfloor comparing to battens. The texts I read through mentioned that movement on plywood is less and therefore opportunities for squeaking are minimised. Plus it gives better accoustic characteristics. Another thing to consider is that the moisture level on intersections (where boards are nailed into the battens) will be different from those parts hanging in the air. Is the an opportunity for anything bad to happen? I really do not know. In my simplistic approach, changes in moisture and different moisture levels = bad. The less I have it - the better. Maybe I'm overengineering ... built a Promenade with Clarendon. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25104 20-10-09 - excavation and piering completed ... 12-04-10 - Basins fixed. Connecting to the electrical grid 23-04-10 - PCI 07-05-10 - HANDOVER! Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 15Jan 17, 2010 11:28 am andy I have been doing some reading myself on timbers because we have decided to go with parquetry flooring roughly 100mtr2 of it . blackbutt has a janka rating of 9.1 and tallowood is a 8.6 so interms of hardness its similar,but in terms of density blackutt is a failure ,why is that? we are focusing on texture ! hardness! availabilty! price ! and customer service of the provider . paruetry has less movement because its laid in small blocks ,but Iam concerned the moisture barrier (selleys) is it suffiecient ? shouldnt a underlay be used . Iam thinking 10 to 15 years after instaltion,the moisture barrier on a new concrete slab ,may not suffice and cause problems http://masterplus.com.au/ check this sight out we are thinking of going with blackbutt on jarrah for all you parquetry fans tell me what you think!! Try googling for the "Timber Manual Datafile P1. Timber Species and Properties". It explains lots of characteristics. Blackbutt is a quite dense timber 1100 - same as Tallowwood. The problem with Blackbutt is that there are many different types of Blackbutt (WA, New England, NSW and QLD) and quality of there vary very much. My understanding is that Tangential Shrinkage the timber has will determine how fast it responds to changes in the level of moisture. More it responds the worse. Blackbutt has it as 7.5 (10 for WA variety) while Tallowwood 6.1. Parquetry should be a good choice - small blocks won't move much, plus laid in different directions should compensate movement across all directions. I'm not aware about sealants (but it could be a good idea as well) - my intention is to use a polyurethane film as the first layer on the concrete. 15 mm plywood on top of it. Blackbutt shouldn't cause you any problems on parquetry IMO (this is not an advice!). I believe Jarrah is a bit softer? Check properties of these timbers in the text I mentioned before - it will clarify lots of questions. ... built a Promenade with Clarendon. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25104 20-10-09 - excavation and piering completed ... 12-04-10 - Basins fixed. Connecting to the electrical grid 23-04-10 - PCI 07-05-10 - HANDOVER! Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 16Jan 17, 2010 11:35 am onc_artisan The boards in this house are 180mm, How awesome I will post some pics when I get back home Never seen a hotel inside a house before Will be great to take a look. I'm sure that 180mm boards look gorgeous. Maybe I'm being too much risk averse with going with 80mm boards ... built a Promenade with Clarendon. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25104 20-10-09 - excavation and piering completed ... 12-04-10 - Basins fixed. Connecting to the electrical grid 23-04-10 - PCI 07-05-10 - HANDOVER! Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 17Jan 17, 2010 5:59 pm ebyelyakov Oh. I would not have a clue which one is better. The tree is the tree - no more and no less. I'm not an expert (it is hard be working for IBM and claim much knowledge about timbers) but generally speaking, they should be pretty much the same. no worries eb as I was thinking that while you were bored in Canberra with either IBM (Defence or Financial Systems) , you'd have gone further & found out which timber mill is better in their technology in cutting & drying their timbers I do not know if it's true or not but a few tradies have advised to use battens rather than plywood because the timber still want air to breath underneath edit - like to know which plywood are you going to use? Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 18Jan 17, 2010 6:41 pm ebyelyakov onc_artisan The boards in this house are 180mm, How awesome I will post some pics when I get back home Never seen a hotel inside a house before Will be great to take a look. I'm sure that 180mm boards look gorgeous. Maybe I'm being too much risk averse with going with 80mm boards Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 19Jan 17, 2010 7:28 pm Sorry the photos are a bit blurry and not well thought out. By the time I decided to take pics I was... Ummm a little blurred. Great to catch up with old mates again and do the usual and see the dawning of a new day... Sorry for the hijack ebyelyakov But I hope you can appreciate the pics The roofed hut in the center of the floor area is a bathroom complete with hand drier just like a pub. Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: In scope: Tallowwood, Grey IB, Red IB and Spotted Gum 20Jan 17, 2010 10:27 pm ttn ebyelyakov Oh. I would not have a clue which one is better. The tree is the tree - no more and no less. I'm not an expert (it is hard be working for IBM and claim much knowledge about timbers) but generally speaking, they should be pretty much the same. no worries eb as I was thinking that while you were bored in Canberra with either IBM (Defence or Financial Systems) , you'd have gone further & found out which timber mill is better in their technology in cutting & drying their timbers I do not know if it's true or not but a few tradies have advised to use battens rather than plywood because the timber still want air to breath underneath edit - like to know which plywood are you going to use? Haha.. studying mills would be a bit toooo much - my evenings in Canberra are not that long to allow such sort of activity while days are occupied with quite different stuff As far as all those books and research say the difference between battens was more about how it fills and its sound characteristics. But, battens are cheaper - however they will require more precise installation. I'm using 15mm plywood. Should be enough ... built a Promenade with Clarendon. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25104 20-10-09 - excavation and piering completed ... 12-04-10 - Basins fixed. Connecting to the electrical grid 23-04-10 - PCI 07-05-10 - HANDOVER! Hi We have Hybrid Spotted Gum Hp0995 from carpet call. It turned out to be very dark and rough. Is there any polish or product we can use to make it shinier ? 0 7891 I’m restoring all my 40yr old windows and I want to install seals around the casements. I’ve sanded back and oiled the frames with sikkens. My plan is to box up inside… 0 4405 I recently went through a similar renovation and move scenario when updating our family home. We also swapped some rooms around and tackled a major… 2 3681 |