Browse Forums Renovation + Home Improvement 1 Sep 23, 2016 9:26 pm Hi starting this thread because I've found Architects quotes to be highly variable and difficult to "negotiate". We're looking to reno our 3 bed 2 bath 1 car space house in Maroubra, NSW The brief is to either do a single floor reno keeping the existing number of bedrooms but with some external wall extensions to make the spaces bigger with a budget of 250k OR to do a second floor addition increasing to 4 bed 2-3 bathroom for a budget of 450k. We have approached a builder who is trying to sell us an all in one package where they get us the architect and the fees are charged through the builder. He quoted us 8k for plans to get us to DA and then stated the rest would be "picked up in the build fee". My problem with this is if I commit to this builder and there are problems then it will be hard to change course down the track. In addition I have no idea how much he will charge for the "rest of the build" fee and would have to trust that he would stick to our budget. Subsequently we've met 3 architects all based in inner west or east. The rough process seems to be 1. sketch design (+/- predesign), 2. DA plans and certification, 3. construction design and certification, 4. construction management. We've received quotes of 3k for a "predesign" (not including "sketch design) to have a site visit, think up 2 options for floor plan and do a council review to see what we can do under CDC and DA. Another two architects quoted 4-5k for sketch design stage and up to 30k for the entire process. Most say about 10-15% of build cost whilst (ironically) at the same time stating that they prefer charging "fixed" fee rather than percentage base as there is obvious conflict of interest with budgeting. So my questions are: 1. what is a reasonable architect fee per stage and overall for the briefs that I have described above. 2. does this vary greatly depending on region (i.e. should I be looking for an architect further out west - travel time would be annoying). 3. how did you choose your architect? Many thanks in advanced for sharing your experience / wisdom. Jono Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 2Sep 24, 2016 10:08 am Hi Jono 1. Architects fees are governed and set by the AIA.. most don't like cutting fees 2.They do charge by the hour and a percentage of the contract.. 3.Most clients are turning to design firms that offer an all-in complete service Design, Engineering & Construction (AEC) 4.In fact engineers are the only profession that doesn't charge a percentage fee over the top unlike like Architects, designers & Brokers. goodluck Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 3Nov 01, 2016 10:49 am I have to take issue with these comments, sorry but they are simply not true and if I was an architect I would be pretty offended. Architect’s fees are not governed by anyone other than the firm who is providing the fee (unlike real estate agents, for example). Some architects may charge a percentage of the contract, although it's pretty rare these days in my experience. We (architects, engineers etc) often calculate or do a sanity check on our fees based on a percentage of the build cost (depending on size, complexity, etc), as it historically works out about right most of the time, but it is not contractually tied to the project value in any way. It is also very rare these days to be paid by the hour for a construction project. 99% of our engagements are fixed fee. Pretty much the only hourly rate work I do is forensic engineering and expert witness cases where a contractor has failed to carry out their work in accordance with the contract or where their work has failed (all of which can usually be avoided by employing reputable professional consultants to act on your behalf for design and supervision of construction work). The reason why architects and engineers don't cut their fees is because it costs a particular amount to run a professional practice and provide a high level of professional service, including quality assurance, continual professional development, insurances, overheads etc. If they cut their fees, they have to cut the quality and completeness of their services. It’s that simple. To claim that design professionals are ripping clients off en masse is just silly. Look at who is making all the money in the construction industry. Hint: it’s not the architects or engineers. Look in the car park of any builder’s office or the cars parked at the site meeting. The Range Rovers, BMW X5s and Landcruisers and flash dual cab utes don’t belong to the architect, 9 times out of 10 they belong to the builder. Who has the big house on the canal with the big boat? Rarely the architect. Rarely the engineer. To answer the OP’s question, for most fully-designed construction projects you would typically budget in the ballpark of 10% of the total value for design fees (this should include engineering and certification as well). You will find that architects, engineers and other design professionals will tend to vary in their fees, that’s just an unavoidable reality, as frustrating as it must be. Basically this is because different firms will have a different understanding of your project, and will have different levels of service to you as a client and to the level of detail they go to with documentation. They’re pricing an intangible ‘idea’, whereas contractors pricing a fully designed build on the other hand are pricing a quantifiable and detailed ‘thing’ – so their prices are typically closer and more consistent. You could use a building designer as opposed to an architect, this may be a lower cost. It may depend on each state, but my understanding is that a building designer (a.k.a draftsman, architectural technician etc) is licenced to do the same thing that architects can do, however a building designer has usually done a 1-2 year TAFE course, and an architect has done a 5 year university course, so the architect in theory has a much higher level of first-principles knowledge and can approach design problems with a wider perspective. A good building designer will be able to design a great house, no problems, but they tend to operate more on the “this is the way we do it” type approach rather than a first principles approach, which may be fine for what you want. Personally, based on my experience, I think that you will give yourself the best opportunity to get the most value if you get the design carried out by someone independent of the build process. As I think you have identified, there is a huge conflict of interest when you hand over design responsibility to the same party who stands to profit from its construction. Basically you’re giving them the reins to design the build to best suit them, rather than to best suit you. You’re also essentially taking away the competition so they don’t have to price competitively once you have signed a contract. If you go with an independent designer, you own the drawings and you can get competitive pricing from several contractors to ensure you are getting good value. So the money you’ve spent upfront on the design is probably paid back several times in getting more competitive construction pricing. That said, I think it's always a good idea to get some feedback on the design from contractors, as they may be able to give you some suggestions for areas where efficiencies can be found if you are willing to accept them. Building Services Engineer Renovating our 1960's modernist home in Brisbane https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82091 Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 4Nov 20, 2016 6:49 pm Well said 1960s Modernist - I couldn't have put it better myself. You might consider doing some of the initial sketch design and DA leg-work yourself before handing over to an Architect or Building Designer when it is time to apply for the various permits. This was you will save roughly a third on the fees and have a far better understanding and connection with the eventual design as a result. Have a look at this article, it might help: http://www.architectyourself.com/design-your-own-home/ Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 5Mar 04, 2017 5:19 pm I realise this is an older post so you have no doubt resolved it by now. I had an architect respond to an add I had put out on a service seeking site and then insist on a site visit (I had advertised for a draftsman to draw up plans for a cheap, small extension). Anyway he spent an hour on site pressured me into signing a contract for over $10,000 for an extension he quoted would be around $100,000 (I had a budget of $60,000). I signed, regretted it, called the next day and cancelled the contract and was billed $500 for his time. I paid it but was very peeved and resolved to NEVER use an architect. I have had problems with my draftsman not including the amount of detail the building permit company have said they need so it's had to got back a few times but as I already knew what I wanted I didn't need an architect to give design advice, just needed the physical plans. Anyway the architect told me they normally charge around 10% of total project cost. Which seems funny to me when things like fittings and fixtures could alter the price substantially but certainly doesn't change the amount of work the architect does. Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 6Mar 06, 2017 11:54 am farmmum96 I am sorry you had a costly unfortunate experience Being charged $500 for a consultation, when you can't afford it, is stressful to say the least Here are my tips for getting great design advice & services
Apps and simulations are dominating our every internet experience..Please leave a PM if you require use of some specific apps or email appsb4Ubuild(at)gmail(dot)com cheers Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 7Apr 04, 2017 10:26 pm Farmmum I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience. If the first appointment was at charge then they should have told you prior - as any business person should-, and pressuring anyone into a contract is dreadful and obviously wrong. However please don't put one bad experience with an entire profession, that's simply unfair. Architect's costs are often worked out on the architect's time to undertake the specific services requested, the hourly rate of said employees in the firm allowing for profits and overheads. Then travel costs, disbursements, etc may be put on top. The catch is the architect's hourly rate. They do range, usually based on experience. The "10%" is still used by some as a rough guide (though I'm sure it's not supposed to be). With those who do use it, I'd think that would include a "full service" from site measure & concept, right through to DA, CC, Construction drawings, written specification and then administering the contract on site and seeing the building through to finish of construction, including a defects list and ensuring defects are fixed - which isn't really necessary on a $100k project. Often a fee proposal (for single residential) will be a fixed price, but that fixed price is based on time allowed to do those services, and is usually displayed in a manner of cost per stage of service (ie, $--- for Site Measure, $--- Concept, $--- for DA drawings, $--- for CC drawings, etc going right through to overseeing the project on site to completion). Of course if you only asked for Concept and DA drawings, then that's all the fee proposal should have on it. Also you dont have to accept all stages presented to you. Each stage should have dot points detailing what's included (ie, Concept Design would include number of meetings, authority & regulations review, number of revisions of concept design, drawings presented as hand sketches, yes or no to 3D images, etc). Then anything past what's listed could be charged hourly in addition to the original fee. Same goes for the design brief. It should be stated on the fee proposal what the client's brief is, and if the brief changes then the fee changes. You'll find that say a $500k build on one site might cost an architect more to do than a $500 k build on another site. Sites are different (ie, bushfire, slope, council regulations, flood, views, etc) so some projects will require more time to resolve, also clients are different (timeframes, intricate design briefs). Of course a higher priced project will take the architect longer to do. Is it larger? Is it more complicated? Is the site difficult? Are you using an expensive building material that requires careful detailing? These factors will add time to resolving the project. If the architect is choosing fittings and fixtures, then that takes time too. If the client is choosing and providing them then you might find their cost isn't taken into account because unless a sum is left in the contract price for them then how does the architect know what price they'll be? I disagree with both of Structural Bim Guy's posts in this thread, several of the comments are simply not true. The AIA (Australian Institute of Architects) does not govern fees, in fact not all architects are even members of the AIA. Architects can charge hourly or fixed rate, some projects are percentage based others are not. It is up to the architect how they wish to charge - like any other profession - and again like any other profession - up to the client to accept or not. What 1960's Modernist Home said above is on the money. Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 8Apr 05, 2017 9:00 am cat_dunc Architects would do best to lift their ranking in trusted professions here Survey Trusted Professions AFAIK the Battlers & Punters posting couldn't care less about you justifying the services, they just struggle with Costs, Affordability, Compliance issues, Tightening Regulations,Faults,maintenance/repairs etc,etc LOL..I can't remember the last time I saw an architect on site fixing up mistakes let alone offering assistance on this forum Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 9Apr 05, 2017 3:33 pm Structural BIM Guy, you have a real bee in your bonnet. I'm no longer going to spend my time addressing you. My two bob on the OPs questions, though likely too late: 1. What is a reasonable architect fee per stage and overall for the briefs that I have described above. This will vary between architects. Experience, location, prestige, workload are some factors that will change fees. 2. Does this vary greatly depending on region (i.e. should I be looking for an architect further out west - travel time would be annoying). Region may vary the cost. An architect in north sydney might charge more than an architect in say, Taree. Though variances are more likely due to the other factors mentioned above. 3. How did you choose your architect? These links might help people: Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 10Apr 05, 2017 4:45 pm If you desperately want an Architect Look around on google communities I see them advertising for US$35/hr (ex. India, Malaysia) most use archicad & Revit (3D BIM) , but the Engineering & Compliance needs to be handled locally OT Others might find this post useful on consultant fee breakdowns Interior designer Costs HTH Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 11Apr 17, 2017 8:27 am StructuralBIMGuy AFAIK the Battlers & Punters posting couldn't care less about you justifying the services, they just struggle with Costs, Affordability, Compliance issues, Tightening Regulations,Faults,maintenance/repairs If people can't afford to do something properly, then perhaps they should reevaluate what their expectations are versus what their budget permits, and get a more realistic outcome for their situation. Everyone seems to want a house far bigger than they need, cars bigger and more expensive than they can afford, and every consumer item under the sun. All in the name of keeping up with the Joneses'. Then complain that they are struggling. Unless you live in Sydney or Melbourne where a 1 bedroom flat costs $750,000 of course... then you do have a real problem with affordability! Building Services Engineer Renovating our 1960's modernist home in Brisbane https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82091 Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 12Apr 19, 2017 9:38 am 1960sModernistHome StructuralBIMGuy AFAIK the Battlers & Punters posting couldn't care less about you justifying the services, they just struggle with Costs, Affordability, Compliance issues, Tightening Regulations,Faults,maintenance/repairs If people can't afford to do something properly, then perhaps they should reevaluate what their expectations are versus what their budget permits, and get a more realistic outcome for their situation. LOL "Yeah Sure, you blame the battlers and punters,you can't afford it,it's their fault?" IMHO...The truth is they're sick and tired of hearing the same ol' Bull$!t while being ripped at both ends..go figure If they are given the correct data & Info in the first instance,then they would be quite capable of making informed decisions about service Providers & Building Costs, best solutions,Building inspections, Trustworthiness, etc. Bad news for Architects, Designers & Builders is that clients are wanting a more all inclusive informative complaint service upfront,rather than a fake image rendering service that sucks them in with the offer, "we will sort everything out later on after you have handed over a 3% Deposit... (Come in Spinner)" Good news for clients is that Full Design & Analysis services can be automated by ENGINEERS through 3D BIM programing software & Processes, faster and cheaper. If clients aren't getting Full Plans, Models, Data, Quants, Engineering, solutions,comparisons costs, PM capabilities. etc ,etc Then they should be looking around for a better service at a cheaper price (a fair price is around 2-3% of the contract value).. OBs will easily save that amount on material costs and with 3 trade/labour quotes. New home builders will be able to query PSs items and variation changes beforehand. Clients with new homes won't be told by engineers doing structural inspections " if you upgraded your Slab/Rebar for $300 your new porcelain tiles (costing $200/m2?) might have not cracked... etc,etc you get the gist HTH BTW mate my inbox is full of messages from Battlers & Punters that agree with me Enjoy my latest post on Footing Comparison Up Grades That's info you'll only get from engineering Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 13Apr 19, 2017 9:06 pm You and I might have a different interpretation of what constitutes a "battler" but in the context of this thread, I highly doubt that a "battler" would be considering whether or not to hire an architect. When I think of a "battler" it's someone deciding whether or not to sell the TV to put food on the table, not whether to drop thirty or forty grand on an architect and another half a mill on a new house... Let's get real. I think you are being a bit overly dramatic. Building Services Engineer Renovating our 1960's modernist home in Brisbane https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82091 Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 14Apr 19, 2017 9:32 pm How about those (yes battlers) that drop $30K on unforeseen engineering costs..I suppose they can go back to the bank for more money...why don't you get real. Nobody here cares about architects dwindling incomes least of all engineers. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 15Apr 19, 2017 9:52 pm With respect, I actually AM a chartered professional engineer, and if you were too you would be aware of the code of ethics that we practice. Slandering other associated professions is not something that a respected professional engineer does, especially not in a public forum. Building Services Engineer Renovating our 1960's modernist home in Brisbane https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82091 Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 16Apr 19, 2017 10:02 pm And you'd do better earning the respect of battlers than tugging the forelock at Architects HTH Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 17Apr 20, 2017 5:39 am I earn the respect of people by what I do (like designing aged care facilities, hospitals, schools and social housing) rather than spruiking BS on the internet... I'll say it again for the cheap seats. Someone who can afford to build a new house is not a battler (perhaps with a handful of exceptions), so you can stop patting yourself on the back. Building Services Engineer Renovating our 1960's modernist home in Brisbane https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82091 Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 18Apr 20, 2017 9:51 am Cheap seats at the back maybe....If you want to see reality mate go to a building site where the client says to the tradies "I paid $5000 for that variation... that's $h!t" and the Worker says " Grrr..I get paid $500" Ringside, you don't want to be the Architect or Builder.. Clients would do best to avoid those situations & make Informed decisions based on data, proofs & simulations beforehand. And we can thank ENGINEERS & Google (ranking algorithm) for that LOL.If you want to mingle with Architects mate...Stick to the ribbon cutting cocktail parties.HTH Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 19Apr 22, 2017 9:26 am Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Architect Cost What is Reasonable? 20May 24, 2017 9:22 am vinothkumar It doesn't matter how much Architecture costs wherever it comes from.. you can give it away for free if you wish? But If the engineering and construction is of a low standard, poorly engineered and non-compliant the Battlers, Punters & Stake holders lose. BTW Australia has very tight Regulations, Codes & Standards. OT Unlike the Indian Subcontinent where Indian buildings collapse weekly I would imagine private Building Inspectors would find it near impossible to get insurance there? Here's a tip Don't leave out the engineering & Data on your client presentations..Aussie Clients hate being ripped off by post contract engineering variations because the designer/artist didn't know what they were doing HTH Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Seems good to me. I've been told $4-5k/sqm is reasonable in Perth. 2 11170 Your build is relatively simple, I believe your job can be easily done by a good building designer, you really do not need to pay for the architect. Remember, architect's… 3 10985 I've just had a look at the website. The company are just building broker's. There are plenty of similar companies that basically draw your plans (they own them so you… 8 10926 |