Converting Alfresco to Outdoor Kitchen\Barbeque

NavyLion · Jan 31, 2023 8:28 pm

Hi guys,

I need your help and suggestions.

We are going to convert our Alfresco to Outdoor Kitchen\Barbeque.

We want to add a new wall or lay a new brick wall as shown below

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We want to achieve an outdoor kitchen similar to this

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or like this

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Our new brick wall will be 3.25 meters in length and the height is between 1 to 1.2 meters.

My questions are

Is a single brick wall will be good enough for the length and height, is it going to be sturdy?

Or do we need a double brick wall?

We are going to add a bifold window on top of the brick wall later, the end result is something like this

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We really appreciate your feedback and thoughts.

Thanks,

Navy

ponzutwo · Feb 01, 2023 5:26 am

Single Brick will be fine, but if you're planning on a window, then you're going to need to frame it out.

A bifold window into a narrow passage looking onto a fence seems like a waste of money and luxury though. If you do go a bifold, make sure that there is enough room for it to open out. Less panels will mean you need more room. Measure twice. Maybe 50 times lol.

NavyLion · Feb 01, 2023 9:03 am

ponzutwo

Single Brick will be fine, but if you're planning on a window, then you're going to need to frame it out.

A bifold window into a narrow passage looking onto a fence seems like a waste of money and luxury though. If you do go a bifold, make sure that there is enough room for it to open out. Less panels will mean you need more room. Measure twice. Maybe 50 times lol.

Thank you Ponzu, I’ll note the framing and measurements million times 😀

My ideas and configuration for the bifold is out set, or the stacking of the panels will be set to out side, so it won’t take space inside the alfresco.

Thanks again for the suggestions!

Navy

ponzutwo · Feb 01, 2023 9:12 am

[quote defaultattr=""]
My ideas and configuration for the bifold is out set, or the stacking of the panels will be set to out side, so it won’t take space inside the alfresco.

[/quote]
thats what i mean, when they go outside, make sure that there is room for them to open, as the side walkway is narrow. Basically if you have say a single "fold" the two windows will be so large they will hit the fence. Im sur eyou will work it out, but this is what i was talking about when measuring. You dont want to order windows, install them, then realise they hit the fence when yuo open them.

StructuralBIMGuy · Feb 01, 2023 9:23 am

NavyLion

ponzutwo

Single Brick will be fine, but if you're planning on a window, then you're going to need to frame it out.

Thank you Ponzu, I’ll note the framing and measurements million times 😀

My ideas and configuration for the bifold is out set, or the stacking of the panels will be set to out side, so it won’t take space inside the alfresco.

Thanks again for the suggestions!

Navy

So you are installing outward folding windows on a single leaf wall?
have you given any consideration to eccentric out of plane loading and the bricks cracking?
I think you better look at actual real images and engineering details as to how it's done properly.
i've never seen a bifold on a single leaf wall, talk to the manufacturers and ask about their warranty?

NavyLion · Feb 01, 2023 9:26 am

ponzutwo

[quote defaultattr=""]
My ideas and configuration for the bifold is out set, or the stacking of the panels will be set to out side, so it won’t take space inside the alfresco.

thats what i mean, when they go outside, make sure that there is room for them to open, as the side walkway is narrow. Basically if you have say a single "fold" the two windows will be so large they will hit the fence. Im sur eyou will work it out, but this is what i was talking about when measuring. You dont want to order windows, install them, then realise they hit the fence when yuo open them.[/quote]

For the space, we have about 2.5 metres from the building to the fence.

NavyLion · Feb 01, 2023 9:30 am

StructuralBIMGuy

NavyLion

ponzutwo

Single Brick will be fine, but if you're planning on a window, then you're going to need to frame it out.

Thank you Ponzu, I’ll note the framing and measurements million times 😀

My ideas and configuration for the bifold is out set, or the stacking of the panels will be set to out side, so it won’t take space inside the alfresco.

Thanks again for the suggestions!

Navy

So you are installing outward folding windows on a single leaf wall?
have you given any consideration to eccentric out of plane loading and the bricks cracking?
I think you better look at actual real images and engineering details as to how it's done properly.
i've never seen a bifold on a single leaf wall, talk to the manufacturers and ask about their warranty?

Hi BIMGuy,

If single brick wall and timber stud or framing on top of the brick wall (the timber frame will also fasten to the ceiling steal beam and left and right brick piers, do you think the frame will hold the bifold window (4 to 5 panels)

Or, should I do double bricks wall plus fastening the timber frame for all the sides?

Thanks for the thoughts.

Navy

ponzutwo · Feb 01, 2023 10:21 am

StructuralBIMGuy

So you are installing outward folding windows on a single leaf wall?
have you given any consideration to eccentric out of plane loading and the bricks cracking?
I think you better look at actual real images and engineering details as to how it's done properly.
i've never seen a bifold on a single leaf wall, talk to the manufacturers and ask about their warranty?

of course you realise that is how theyve been doing them in the eastern states since forever, right? Hence why i told him that he'd need to frame it out if he was going to be installing a window on a single leaf wall.
The whole system sits in the stud frame, not on the bricks.

here's mine.

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NavyLion · Feb 01, 2023 11:03 am

ponzutwo

StructuralBIMGuy

So you are installing outward folding windows on a single leaf wall?
have you given any consideration to eccentric out of plane loading and the bricks cracking?
I think you better look at actual real images and engineering details as to how it's done properly.
i've never seen a bifold on a single leaf wall, talk to the manufacturers and ask about their warranty?

of course you realise that is how theyve been doing them in the eastern states since forever, right? Hence why i told him that he'd need to frame it out if he was going to be installing a window on a single leaf wall.
The whole system sits in the stud frame, not on the bricks.

here's mine.

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👍 nice

StructuralBIMGuy · Feb 01, 2023 11:04 am

Sounds like you don't know the difference between a Single (Brick) leaf wall and a Brick veneer wall ?
His photo show a low single leaf wall, which is inadequate
You can check with the window manufacturers of refer to AS3700 Masonry Structures which sets out the minimum requirements for masonry structures

ponzutwo · Feb 01, 2023 11:05 am

NavyLion

Hi BIMGuy,

If single brick wall and timber stud or framing on top of the brick wall (the timber frame will also fasten to the ceiling steal beam and left and right brick piers, do you think the frame will hold the bifold window (4 to 5 panels)

Or, should I do double bricks wall plus fastening the timber frame for all the sides?

Thanks for the thoughts.

Navy

Build a timber stud wall to the required dimensions and inline with the requirements for the window (the window manufacturer should be able to help) if there isnt already some documentation for the window. Fix the Stud wall to the slab and to the ceiling beam with appropriate fixings. Install teh window, pack out if necessary. Then lay the bricks just like any other brick veneer set up. Flash the window. Line the inside

Obviously if you have no experience in doing so previously, you may want to seek further guidance on the detail, but that's the general high-level process. I'm assuming you wont be insulating the wall etc. given its outside.

ponzutwo · Feb 01, 2023 11:06 am

StructuralBIMGuy

Sounds like you don't know the difference between a Single (Brick) leaf wall and a Brick veneer wall ?
His photo show a low single leaf wall, which is inadequate
You can check with the window manufacturers of refer to AS3700 Masonry Structures which sets out the minimum requirements for masonry structures

youre splitting hairs. The advice i gave was clear for a veneer set up as the original response.

StructuralBIMGuy · Feb 01, 2023 11:38 am

NavyLion

Or, should I do double bricks wall plus fastening the WINDOW frame for all the sides?

That's the certified detail I would be looking for.. start by contacting the manufacturer
OT (slightly) If they don't have the detail for your specific appication?
Look at the Bi-fold door set up ( your window is half the size and weight) then decide
We brick in Bi fold doors all the time, ie. double brick, Steel lintels, steel posts, ties, etc,etc
No Movement, no tension on the brickwork, no cracking

NavyLion

Thanks for the thoughts.

At worse when the single leaf wall cracks and you put a structural claim in to the builder for repairs.
You don't want the builder saying it's your problem the window was installed incorrectly...get it

NavyLion · Feb 01, 2023 7:01 pm

StructuralBIMGuy

NavyLion

Or, should I do double bricks wall plus fastening the WINDOW frame for all the sides?

That's the certified detail I would be looking for.. start by contacting the manufacturer
OT (slightly) If they don't have the detail for your specific appication?
Look at the Bi-fold door set up ( your window is half the size and weight) then decide
We brick in Bi fold doors all the time, ie. double brick, Steel lintels, steel posts, ties, etc,etc
No Movement, no tension on the brickwork, no cracking

NavyLion

Thanks for the thoughts.

At worse when the single leaf wall cracks and you put a structural claim in to the builder for repairs.
You don't want the builder saying it's your problem the window was installed incorrectly...get it

Oh wow, lots of boxes to ✅
I’ll keep all your advice!
Cheers 🍻

chippy · Feb 01, 2023 7:54 pm

NavyLion
What is at the top of the opening? Is it a lintel with brick, a timber beam or what?
You obviously have your slab across the bottom and bricks up both sides it's a pretty simple conversion.

NavyLion · Feb 02, 2023 12:39 pm

chippy

@NavyLion
What is at the top of the opening? Is it a lintel with brick, a timber beam or what?
You obviously have your slab across the bottom and bricks up both sides it's a pretty simple conversion.

Hi Chippy,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Attached here is the alfresco outdoor and the side I wanted to install the brick wall. There is a metal beam on top (or between) of the two brick piers

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My (budget) concern is if I will do (a) a single brick wall veneer 1 meter height and 3.25 metre width\length and then install a stud\timber frame for the bifold window.

Or (b), double brick wall, same length and height, on top of it is the stud\timber for the bifold window.

I do have about 2 pallets of extra bricks (left over for my building constructions).

Ta,

Navy

chippy · Feb 02, 2023 5:31 pm

You can do either brick veneer or double brick it really doesn't matter. I'd probably frame up the inside and line it with villaboard or blue board after any rough in is completed. Fix off brick ties to the frame and brick up the external. If you really want to do a good job get the brick layer to rod the joints back into the existing brick work.
Basically build your wall to form up your opening.
The window company will do a site measure.
Get them to install a sill tray on the bottom to prevent water ingress under the window. The new window will sit on that and the sides and head will be supported by aluminium trims that are fixed mechanically and with adhesive to the side walls and lintel.
A simple 5 panel bifold that stacks at one end will give you sashes around 650 each.
It's a pretty simple job, no need to overthink it.

Just another question, what are the bits sticking up near your fence? It almost looks like you allowed provision for water, drain and electrical out there.

NavyLion · Feb 03, 2023 12:59 pm

chippy

You can do either brick veneer or double brick it really doesn't matter. I'd probably frame up the inside and line it with villaboard or blue board after any rough in is completed. Fix off brick ties to the frame and brick up the external. If you really want to do a good job get the brick layer to rod the joints back into the existing brick work.
Basically build your wall to form up your opening.
The window company will do a site measure.
Get them to install a sill tray on the bottom to prevent water ingress under the window. The new window will sit on that and the sides and head will be supported by aluminium trims that are fixed mechanically and with adhesive to the side walls and lintel.
A simple 5 panel bifold that stacks at one end will give you sashes around 650 each.
It's a pretty simple job, no need to overthink it.

Just another question, what are the bits sticking up near your fence? It almost looks like you allowed provision for water, drain and electrical out ther

Thanks for the detail and step by steps process.

Yes, I had provisions for an outdoor kitchen, hot and cold, electrical, gas, and drainage as well.

chippy · Feb 03, 2023 1:23 pm

NavyLion

chippy

You can do either brick veneer or double brick it really doesn't matter. I'd probably frame up the inside and line it with villaboard or blue board after any rough in is completed. Fix off brick ties to the frame and brick up the external. If you really want to do a good job get the brick layer to rod the joints back into the existing brick work.
Basically build your wall to form up your opening.
The window company will do a site measure.
Get them to install a sill tray on the bottom to prevent water ingress under the window. The new window will sit on that and the sides and head will be supported by aluminium trims that are fixed mechanically and with adhesive to the side walls and lintel.
A simple 5 panel bifold that stacks at one end will give you sashes around 650 each.
It's a pretty simple job, no need to overthink it.

Just another question, what are the bits sticking up near your fence? It almost looks like you allowed provision for water, drain and electrical out ther

Thanks for the detail and step by steps process.

Yes, I had provisions for an outdoor kitchen, hot and cold, electrical, gas, and drainage as well.

You'll just need to move the services over before you start so you can get them roughed in after you frame up.