Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum 1 Jul 18, 2017 12:11 am I am an owner builder in WA that has been struggling with getting a good job- be that close 'to any sort of Australian Standards'!! The siteworks was bad enough and now the grano workers have bent me over the barrel. The issues are not how much concrete they laid- it's how they did it. And the grano can't seem to understand that. "that's how we always do it" or "we don't do it that way" - sick of hearing those phrases. "the engineer sits behind a desk and doesn't know how it's really done" is another. The engineer has seen my photos of the slab being laid and wants to xray it- over $6k worth!! Plus his $1.1k for the inspection and report. Even if we 'patch' these known/discovered issues, there are likely items missed that will still compromise the integrity of the slab- not to mention these would be 'band-aids' anyway. The engineer said that he is kind of stuck where he can't condemn the slab but then can't assure me that it will ever be right either. We can't even lay tiles on it as the surface is 'burnished' in places, shedding hair-line cracks, drummy and crazed everywhere. The engineer has called it 'not fit for purpose'. So I don't know where to go from here. The slab will never be as good as the engineer designed it to be- even though I upgraded all the steel and increased it to 25MPa. Using termi-mesh around the edges is also an issue where there are so many 'cold-joints' and cracks opening up that the termites will likely just come through those. But hairline cracks are not considered 'structural'- even if there are hundreds of them. I would like to have it removed and start again but not sure how to go about it. I have booked a meeting with a lawyer on Monday to start some sort of process. The engineer is worried that there might be an issue with me knowing things weren't right but let them continue with the job. I was lost in my fear and bullying from the grano and his cousin, matched with not knowing where to turn, and let the grano finish- I even paid them fully! Here in WA we have the building commission, but am thinking the legal advice is the best place to start. Re: Concrete slab non conforming 2Jul 18, 2017 9:41 am What's a grano? Any photos? Did you take out building insurance? Sound like you have a case, but proving it could be expensive, especially since it sounds like the engineer is on your side, but wants a Rolls Royce solution that will cost you a fortune before he makes that claim. I'd put the acid on the engineer to rule one way or the other and see the lawyer only if he says it does not conform. Otherwise, you might just be on a hunting trip with no guarantee of bagging any game. Re: Concrete slab non conforming 3Jul 18, 2017 12:23 pm A 'grano' is what I call the concreter. A grano worker. Building insurance have said that they cover 'damage' and not faulty workmanship. ie. if one worker damages the work of another, but not if the guy does a crap job himself. For various reasons it certainly doesn't conform as it sits, but the engineer is likely to have a disclaimer whichever way it ends up. Trying to repair it- he will disclaim the areas that can't be tested (and probably others) Wanting to have it removed and start again- he couldn't stand in court and say that it can't be repaired 'good enough'?!! From the photos I have, I don't see how he can't condemn it after telling me it's the outer 3m of slab that are the most important on a clay site and that's where the photos of the beam joints are from. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Cracking in slab- the straight one is the slab mesh exposed at the surface. This happened in a couple of places. Happily rusting away. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Slab pour done in stages means that there are 'cold joints'. This spot has three layers where the termites could sniff their way past the outer termi-mesh. Not to mention the lack of structural integrity. May as well have done it with pavers. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ The internal beam 'run-in' where the external footings were poured and allowed to run into the internal beams. The grano then got upset when I asked for my upgraded layer of mesh to be at the top not sitting on the bottom with the other. He hooked the upper layer and yanked it whilst the concrete was setting- hence it's all fractured. The internal beam would not be able to bond to this and ended up a shadow of its specified 478mm deep Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ The plastic was pulled too tight and the 'run-in' from the ext footings ended up suspended off the ground- not to mention the obvious fractured concrete that was done to all 30 locations Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ There is a control joint with termi-mesh. They didn't use anything to help the concrete get into places like this- hence a void that only an x-ray would show the extent. There is a wall that runs along this joint that's nearly 3.5m tall!! Re: Concrete slab non conforming 4Jul 18, 2017 1:33 pm Wow, everyday I thank my lucky stars that we got the builder we did and the army of quality tradies that he surrounds himself with. How you proceed is difficult to determine, and will probably be a case of following the least worse course of action. You might be lucky and get a comment from someone here who is an expert or went through this exact same situation, but possibly not. I think you have already considered the options, and you probably already know that the vagaries of the law and requirements of legal proof mean that this could consume both a lot of money and time, and neither might be worth the investment. If there is a relatively inexpensive and timely way (hopefully through your already invested engineer) to find out what it would take (perhaps nothing, or repair or replacement) to make the slab fit for purpose, I think that will govern your next step, and that next step is what the lawyer should help you with. It possibly starts with a old fashion written letter to the "grano" documenting your concerns and the reasonable rectification you would like. If they answer, you might get a solution, but at a minimum you'll have a dialogue for the record that you can take into a dispute process. If they don't answer, at least you have a record of your concerns and inaction on their part to take into a dispute process. Irrespective, unless you are prepared to take the hit and fix it or start again at your own expense, your going to have to go through a process, and the lawyer and the building commission are unlikely to tell you otherwise. I doubt what I have said is helpful, but at least you know someone has listened. Re: Concrete slab non conforming 5Jul 18, 2017 5:49 pm Hi Chalky We too are OBing in WA but we are near the end of our build. I'm going to suggest perhaps you put this in the Owner Builder Forum as you might get a larger response. It's a shame you've paid the concreter .... I do feel for you. <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=62083">viewtopic.php?t=62083</a><!-- l --> Re: Concrete slab non conforming 6Jul 19, 2017 8:52 pm Thanks ArcadeIt and AKB. I think you might be right AKB, the OB forum may get more reaction. This was my first ever post and wasn't sure where I should post. ArcadeIt, I think there is no way I can even approach the grano. I rang him last week to say that I had the engineer out and there are issues that need looking at. He asked what they were so I started by saying that 'the slab is not fit for purpose as you can't lay tiles on it' and he arced up straight away with 'the engineer doesn't know what he's talking about, that's what we always does' and that went on for about 15mins before I decided it wasn't worth mentioning anything else. Imagine I said that there is no fix for the beams and the whole slab has to be pulled up!! I told him I was half way through an email and would send it through shortly- that was Friday. I suspect I may have wrecked his weekend. Actually I hope I did- it wouldn't come close to the stress I have been under since mid January. I emailed the engineer, fishing for more of a confirmation of pulling it up- sending some photos of the beam damage (that he already had) and asking how you can connect something to rubble. No reply a day and a half later. He had told me that it was the outer 3m of the house that needed to be the strongest on a clay site because of the shrinking and expanding (heave). So the damage to the beams are right where the outside footings join the beams!! How can he not condemn it?!?! Re: Concrete slab non conforming 7Jul 19, 2017 10:04 pm Was your slab inspected and approved by building inspector or an engineer before it was poured?, if so it would at least have had all the reinforcement in place, however workmanship in pouring and placing is entirely different matter Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Concrete slab non conforming 8Jul 19, 2017 10:57 pm It wasn't inspected before the pour. I actually upgraded everything the engineer specified, so the fact that they left both rows of mesh in the bottom of the footing was ok- just not what i thought i was paying for. The majority of the issue is the laying of the concrete. The grano kept telling me how strong it was because of the 'amount' of concrete poured. Probably to take my mind off the 'way' he was pouring it. The engineer looked at my photos and saw that they pushed the slab ties in too long after the footings were poured. So this would leave a 'void' around the steel as the concrete wasn't liquid enough to re-settle around them. It turns out from the delivery docket that the slab tie/z-bars were 200mm too short anyway. But the engineer wouldn't have seen that unless he was there for the pour. There is an issue that could be fixed- where the slab and the internal beams are meant to be monolithic (poured at the same time) but the timeline photos show them pouring the beams at least 2.5 hours before they poured the slab. Apparently you can drill through the slab and chemset in dowels to the beams. The photos of the damaged concrete where the concrete tapered into the beams is the main issue that I feel can't be fixed- and the attached photos are not showing the worst of it. Some areas were just a pile of rubble sitting in the bottom of the trench. I actually put my hand on his shoulder and told the grano to stop pulling on the mesh when he was wrecking the first one. He yelled 'you want it at the top, I'm getting it to the f..ken top' then went around and did it to every one of them- acting like a crazy man. When I confronted him about it the next day he told me he was ready to leave because 'he' felt disrespected and insulted. I couldn't for the life of me work out what to do next. It had taken all of my power just to confront him. Even if I had thought of ringing the engineer, he wouldn't have been at work on a Saturday anyway. At my workplace what he did would be called bullying. Maybe the lawyer will see it that way too and may help my case. Surely that's criminal damage without even seeing it as totally unprofessional/inappropriate!? Re: Concrete slab non conforming 9Jul 19, 2017 11:05 pm That makes no sense, as part of building permit there must be a mandatory inspection and approval, it will be detailed on your building permit. Your contractor is bullying you because he can. Get yourself experienced building consultant to back you up. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Concrete slab non conforming 10Jul 19, 2017 11:54 pm Do you think it could be different in WA? I can't see anything written on my building permit that says I must have inspections. There is a page for 'inspections and tests completed' with 7 lines for inspections and 7 for tests. I did question the shire about this list and what I had to test/inspect. The guy said it was more for any alterations done during the build or lodging what I did test/inspect. Maybe I need to ring the building services again. If I needed an inspection and didn't get one then maybe my fight just got worse. Re: Concrete slab non conforming 11Jul 20, 2017 12:09 am Chalky, We never needed to have specific building inspections. <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=62083">viewtopic.php?t=62083</a><!-- l --> Re: Concrete slab non conforming 14Jul 20, 2017 8:35 am Talk to the person who issued your building permit and ask about pre slab inspection. Get a second opinion on the slab Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Concrete slab non conforming 15Jul 20, 2017 8:43 am chalky Looking at the photos, sorry but I'd say the slab will need to be pulled up... you also should make a complaint to the Building commision. Did you ask/pay for you engineer to inspect the reinforcement before/during the pour? I've found 99% of the times the concrete contractor or tradies are at fault.. I noticed there's no chairs and required concrete cover over the reinforcement? They are probably sitting in the back of the truck with the sundry bars? The proper procedure is to 1.Check that the contractor is licensed. 2.Get a written quote 3.Check the reinforcement order & Quants delivered 4. Warn the concretor that the engineer will inspect the rebar before the pours 5. If its being inspected 6.30am the morning of the pour and found to be noncompliant the pour will be delayed or worse concrete taken back to the depot. 6.7.etc Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Concrete slab non conforming 16Jul 20, 2017 9:10 am building-expert That makes no sense, as part of building permit there must be a mandatory inspection and approval, it will be detailed on your building permit. Your contractor is bullying you because he can. Get yourself experienced building consultant to back you up. Re: Concrete slab non conforming 17Jul 20, 2017 9:49 am Chalky I'm sorry I can't help you with your current slab but happy to recommend tradies and engineer that we used etc <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=62083">viewtopic.php?t=62083</a><!-- l --> Re: Concrete slab non conforming 18Jul 20, 2017 12:38 pm This can be a problem with owner building, not really knowing, the quality of trades used, so to combat this, I had a project manager, builder, who had 3 trades of each job, all top trades, then we would get, good price but more importantly, a top tradesman, project manager fee ended up paying for itself, and I got quality at a great price. Re: Concrete slab non conforming 19Jul 20, 2017 12:44 pm Thank you Doozer for correcitng my assumption, I had no idea that WA is the sister state of Albania. Regardless, work has to comply with NCC and who signs of that it does when it cannot be verified? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Concrete slab non conforming 20Jul 20, 2017 1:55 pm building-expert Thank you Doozer for correcitng my assumption, I had no idea that WA is the sister state of Albania. Regardless, work has to comply with NCC and who signs of that it does when it cannot be verified? From a pure legal perspective, if you've signed the variation, it is a very high bar to have it set aside. No-one can give you legal advice on a forum, but you would need… 3 5478 Thanks. There are plenty of builders around my suburb. I'll make sure to do some door-to-door knocking, or note their building details on the temp fence. 4 4747 Building Standards; Getting It Right! Long story short, a toilet room is going to back onto our main bedroom and I want to make it close to soundproof. 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