Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum Re: builder owner vs professional builder 21Jul 21, 2014 4:12 pm We OB but contract a builder to work on an hourly rate. Our extension is a messy one and most builders quoted 50-100% fat into it as it's just impossible to look at costs in advance for this job. It could go really smoothly ( which it has) or could have been full of complications. Our builder is fabulous at sourcing the cheapest materials and gives me recommendations for who I should ask for quotes. He knows which trades are reliable and the beauty of having him is they'll squeeze his requests in whereas I would be straight to the back of the queue for all of them as it's a big job but I can't afford to over capitalise as we're not in a metro area. Some builders like working like this as it saves them some thinking time and reduces the or shopping time. Others want owners to step right away from the process as we really don't understand the technical stuff. I'm a professional and have studied many years to understand my field with far more learning via my experience. I value trades in the same capacity to have accumulated knowledge in their field. To assume I can Google how to build a house is a pretty big leap. I pay them because I value my own time. They can do in a day what would take me at least a week if not several more if I factor in planning. People make one happy, not houses? I do not think so. Houses are more to be trusted than people. Elizabeth Aston, Mr. Darcy's Daughters http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmDX0tgONFs http://lightndreamy.blogspot.com/ Re: builder owner vs professional builder 22Jul 21, 2014 5:46 pm qebtel RedHotMike Having worked with many OB's in my time ... And in what capacity would that be? Supply/supply install frame/truss/engineered timber. Quote: RedHotMike I usually add a premium for OB's as usually they require no end more of my time hand holding them thru the project which just doesn't happen with pro's. So you profit from OB's lack of knowledge. Your point is? I actually found i knew more about the local planning laws than all but one of the bloody useless plumbers who came out to quote on my job! No I don't profiteer at all if that is what you are suggesting however I do build in a fee for extra time required. Some we win, some we (still loose) which is no real difference to any other job. Quote: RedHotMike By far the biggest issue is the lack of knowledge in both technique (how things are done) and regulation etc, not to mention being completely at sea if there is a problem to rectify along the way. Dont oversell the know-how of the building process. Its not rocket science. A building inspector should be engaged to prevent being "lost at sea". Like I said, not rocket science. RedHotMike Not at all. Surely you agree there is a ton of "stuff" you need to know. Quote: Quote: If they are lucky they will get good trades but mostly they get stuck in the middle of buck passing with no idea what so ever who is providing good advice and who is just saving their backsides. Well the bolded part of your comment is a fine testament to the licencing systems and work ethics of building tradies in our fine nanny state country, aint it? And yes, I agree with you. But there is the other side of the coin, as pointed out above in nectar's post. I'm not arguing with you but it's just how it is. Quote: RedHotMike TBH I'm amazed that DIY home building is still permitted. Really why? Because you taint everyone with the same lack of tenacity, planning skills, and attention to detail that have plagued the OBers you have dealt with? Or is it because you expect the nanny state to remove all options for people to do their own thing? Please stop insulting people's intelligence. There are a more than a few people on this forum right now doing a full on OB and theres no reason they shouldnt get through it with help from this forum filling in the gaps of any shortcomings of knowledge they might have. they seem to be pretty well on top of it from what I can see I'm not arguing that some people do an excellent job of it and could become registered builders in their own right with the minimum of effort. Sadly the vast majority shouldn't be doing what they are doing. Re: builder owner vs professional builder 23Jul 21, 2014 9:56 pm I've owner built. Good way to keep cost down and to build to your exact requirements. Sure, some stuff up, many don't. Sometimes the only way to learn is via trial and error. Plus it's their money so it's like taxpayers bail them out when they run into problems I.e. long term welfare recipients. I strongly disagree the need to restrict owner builders. What we don't need in this country is more regulations. Plus many carpenters owner build without a builders licence, are you proposing everyone needs a building licence to build a house or undertake renovations? As it stands you need qualified tradespeople to complete certain works. I've also seen some f'king poor quality jobs and shortcuts completed by regulated builders also. Re: builder owner vs professional builder 24Jul 27, 2014 5:43 pm I am using a project manager and is going brilliantly,he has numerous top trades and negotiates all pricing,will end up cheaper than not having him and more importantly,a much more informed better result,this also allows you to chime in with well researched bits n pieces,big advantage here is also no advantage for builder to not do best practice,you get informed and then proceed fully aware of options,not having one unless your in building industry will cost you either and or quality,time,money. Re: builder owner vs professional builder 25Jul 28, 2014 11:15 am RedHotMike No I don't profiteer at all if that is what you are suggesting however I do build in a fee for extra time required. Some we win, some we (still loose) which is no real difference to any other job. I said profit, not profiteer, I think you understand the difference. Anyone doing work is entitled to profit from it. You said you charge extra for Obers because of their unfamiliarity with the process, and you profit from that because of extra work for you. I was saying thats a fair thing and good business for you. So whats not to like from your side if you are getting extra work and being paid for it? Quote: RedHotMike TBH I'm amazed that DIY home building is still permitted. I'm not arguing that some people do an excellent job of it and could become registered builders in their own right with the minimum of effort. Sadly the vast majority shouldn't be doing what they are doing. My point still stands. Why should we all be denied the opportunity to OB, because perhaps the majority who attempt it over estimate their own abilities? If the nanny state had its way, there would be no entrepreneurship, and no one would have a go at anything! Enough already! Long live the Owner builder! Re: builder owner vs professional builder 26Jul 28, 2014 2:32 pm qebtel RedHotMike If the nanny state had its way, there would be no entrepreneurship, and no one would have a go at anything! Enough already! Long live the Owner builder! I quite agree. The right to build your home (according to all regs etc) is a fundamental one. I don't want that right stripped away from me in the interests of well no-one really. There's no shortage of work for professional builders so owner building harms no-one. What we need in this country is more choice, not less. Re: builder owner vs professional builder 27Aug 01, 2014 4:32 pm doesnt matter how skilled or prepared you are, things can still go down the toilet but reading this thread a novice OB could help themself by paying a builder, building surveyor, or project manager who provides consulting on an hourly basis......find a good one and they can help you source materials and labour at a good price, as well as advise you when you arent sure about processes secondly, at the important stages (slab, footings, frame, plumbing etc), advise contractors that they get paid after the building inspector has signed off on the work Re: builder owner vs professional builder 28Aug 01, 2014 6:25 pm Where this argument falls down is when the original OB sells the property and some poor schmuck buys a house that is dodgi at best. Poor foundations, lack of proper termite proofing, wiring and plumbing not conforming to regs etc etc. I've seen a few in my time and the original builder should be shot. I'm all for everyone in this country being able to build what they want , how they want but there is a very good reason we have these ( sometimes over governed ) regulations such as the BCA and AS. Stewie Re: builder owner vs professional builder 29Aug 01, 2014 7:43 pm What's a fair hourly rate to get help? Or is it better to get a project manager/expert to supervise for 10% for example? Re: builder owner vs professional builder 30Aug 01, 2014 7:44 pm I'm not sure that's completely true Stewie. When you OB you require all the same standard of a cookie cutter builder, as in you need certification of your slab, your plumbing has to be done by a licenced plumber/drainer, and your electricity must be done by a licenced electrician. Not forgetting when you get your private certifier to sign off on certain sections, i.e. frame and trusses, that's got to be done properly or else the private certifier can lose his licence. You can and do get people who should know and do better, do crap jobs. In Qld if a OB sells within 7 years of finishing it, they have to provide the same warranty as any other builder does. I also think there should be more to getting a OB licence in Qld, as I thought it was too easy to get. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: builder owner vs professional builder 31Aug 02, 2014 6:47 am +1, same rules apply to OB and any other builders. I would say my building surveyor was pretty tough. More so than a project builder. Why? Because he isn't willing to overlook anything because he knows he won't get repeat business from me anytime soon. A project builder isn't going to repeatedly use a tough building surveyor. What's involved in getting a OB licence in QLD? In VIC it's just an application form lol. Re: builder owner vs professional builder 32Aug 02, 2014 9:34 am JB1 What's involved in getting a OB licence in QLD? In VIC it's just an application form lol. You do a very very basic online course and pay your dollars. So not much more than your Victorian one. With such a big sinkhole for your money, I would've thought there would have been a whole lot more in the course. I even did the safety induction course for a white card, so that I could visit other building sites with them giving me the excuse I didn't have one, let alone someone saying I couldn't go on to my own block. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: builder owner vs professional builder 33Aug 02, 2014 2:15 pm My comments were made partly in reference to the post by RedHotMike... Quote: RedHotMike wrote: TBH I'm amazed that DIY home building is still permitted. and also that most of the homes I'd seen done by OB's were pre-certifiers in NSW. I'd imagine now that as you say with certifiers having to pass these jobs and with their licence on the line the standards have been raised somewhat. Stewie Re: builder owner vs professional builder 34Aug 02, 2014 2:48 pm We are doing owner builder in Melbourne. It is saving us probably $100K. But of course it takes a lot longer because we can only do it after work and on the weekends. But gee we are enjoying it. We even dug all the 1m stump holes by hand in the hot summer sun. You need to be very dedicated though. But if you have the skills it is a great way to save money. My renovation blog: http://landhousereno.blogspot.com.au/ Or like me on facebook: The little yellow house About to extend our Edwardian House in West Footscray, Melbourne D & N and 3 kids. Re: builder owner vs professional builder 35Aug 02, 2014 6:37 pm Stewie D My comments were made partly in reference to the post by RedHotMike... Quote: RedHotMike wrote: TBH I'm amazed that DIY home building is still permitted. and also that most of the homes I'd seen done by OB's were pre-certifiers in NSW. I'd imagine now that as you say with certifiers having to pass these jobs and with their licence on the line the standards have been raised somewhat. Stewie I will admit that my experience is entirely within Victoria. Part of the problem here is that other than Electrical and Plumbing, none of the other trades have to be licensed however as a owner builder/DB-M you are required to have a registered carpenter/concreter/bricklayer etc. I'm not sure how OB's or DB-M's get around this as registered trades (other than electrician/plumbers) are few and far apart down here as they are not required by DB-U builders. Things are different in other states and I'm sure the situation would be better if all trades needed to be registered as they are in (say) QLD. Re: builder owner vs professional builder 36Aug 03, 2014 8:49 am Similar to NSW RHM but slightly different. Apart from plumbing and electrical an OB here can do all the other work, however if he employs anyone else they have to be licensed by the Dept of Fair Trading. If their contract exceeds $20,000 for the work they do for the OB then they also have to take out Home Owners Warranty Insurance. They also should provide the OB with the relevant certificates at the end of their work. Where this falls down of course is where the OB does some of the work - framing for instance and a carpenter does the rest. Where does his warranty start and end? There are some problems going down this path. Stewie Re: builder owner vs professional builder 37Aug 04, 2014 10:32 am Stewie D Where this argument falls down is when the original OB sells the property and some poor schmuck buys a house that is dodgi at best. Poor foundations, lack of proper termite proofing, wiring and plumbing not conforming to regs etc etc. I've seen a few in my time and the original builder should be shot. Stewie Argument doesnt fall down at all. Seriously did you think that comment out properly? Those items are regulated. If a house is dodgi on those items, its because the tradie or the certifier has not done their work properly, nothing to do with the unregulated work an OB does. Re: builder owner vs professional builder 38Aug 04, 2014 10:42 am bpratt I also think there should be more to getting a OB licence in Qld, as I thought it was too easy to get. No offence, but I think you dont understand what the OB licence course is. IT is not to teach you anything beyond the concept of progress payments and simple planning, all of which anyone with half a brain should be able to work out for themselves anyway. The Qld course is a tokenistic waste of time. Regulating OBers is just to
Re: builder owner vs professional builder 39Aug 04, 2014 10:58 am Stewie D Where this falls down of course is where the OB does some of the work - framing for instance and a carpenter does the rest. Where does his warranty start and end? There are some problems going down this path. Stewie Come on Stewie, it doesnt fall down at all. The erected frame has to be certified. If an OBer doesnt do it properly then it gets picked up on visual inspection, same as what happens as if it was framed by a builder. I know you have to protect your industry and stand up for it, but you cant deny all the ongoing cases here of licensed tradies doing the wrong thing (frame over hang for ex) As JB1 pointed out above, certifiers will come down harder on OBers as well, because they dont have a cosy ongoing working relationship with them to protect. And OBers I "think" do things slowly and more methodically, as opposed to tradies who just race through everything (including not reading plans properly). Warranty starts and ends same as wit a licenced builder . I dont see what problems there are as you claim? Re: builder owner vs professional builder 40Aug 05, 2014 7:30 pm Dear oh dear. I've seen some that were done by OB's that were very good but I have seen a few that were pretty awful too. They were passed by the engineer as being structurally compliant but they were as rough as guts. It is what you can't see that worries me. I asked an engineer a long time ago who basically said they are there just to make sure the building complies with the relevant codes but in no way reflects the quality of the build. And I'm not protecting my industry either; if there are dodgi builders out there de-register them. Simple. Stewie Hi VK, I am now retired however I have stood beside over 300 owner builders in the past 18 years that have successfully built their own homes. First of all a building… 10 22578 Hi all. Anyone know when the $11,000 limit was set in legislation for renovations in QLD? Ive been renovating for 5 years now and this was the limit back then. As we know,… 0 4237 |