Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum 1 Jun 18, 2011 9:01 pm Hi everyone I will call the relevant authorities on Monday to get my answer, but am curious to know (if anyone can help me).... how soon can an OB sell the property after renovating/extending? From what I can gather (but I need to get my facts right), the "OB" purchased the property in approx. May 2010 (or sometime early 2010 - but like I said, need to get definite facts on this). And also from what we gather, they NEVER lived here, but simply bought, renovated/extended, and sold - to us. I am now discovering this might not be 'legal'. Can anyone shed any light? Esp for the laws in Victoria? Maybe they did live here prior to the renovations (although nothing has ever pointed to this fact and we can ask the neighbours) but even so, can they sell immediately after the extension? Also, the building commission website says "OB do not build for profit" (It doesn't say "can not" just says "do not"). I know our "OB" was bragging about how cheaply he did the renos - and we all know how much we paid for the house - so clearly a hefty profit was made. Like I said, I'll call Monday to get some more facts - but just interested in any input. Am quite frankly PO'd with with OB (have been for some time with all the issues we have going on) and would love nothing more than to find him out as breaking the regulations. (Thanks Chippy - I would never have investigated this if you hadn't of brought it to my attention). HHCIB Re: A question re OB selling property.... 2Jun 18, 2011 9:34 pm I'm sorry I can't help you but just wanted to say that I wish you the best - your OB has been going on my nerves more and more One thing comes to mind (but hope they weren't thinking that much ahead) - they maybe didn't live there at all, but just in case they transferred the docos to that address, I'm thinking that they could trick the law just because of the (potential) address "paper shuffle" (IF it happened at all - but I hope NOT!!!!!). My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: A question re OB selling property.... 3Jun 18, 2011 9:51 pm Thanks Lex. We are thinking the same... if they simply listed this as their address and made it 'look so', maybe that's all it takes to get around it???. But I just checked the contract of sale and it has their address listed as their other 'actual' address. A couple of documents have them as this address, but it seems the ones that would matter, have their other address?? Thanks for your support. I know, they are doing my head in, and in turn, I'm doing every one else's head in. Will be glad when this is all behind us, trust me, we have better things to be doing with our time than cleaning up this mess. HHCIB Re: A question re OB selling property.... 4Jun 18, 2011 10:22 pm In Perth you can't sell for 7 years without approval. For approval you need to show hardship or others reasons why to sell before this time. Bottom line can be done with the ok from builders board. Not sure why you are so worried though if you like the house is all that matters not what the Ob paid to Build it. https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=44762 My Owner builder journey extending a 1930's Bungalow Re: A question re OB selling property.... 5Jun 18, 2011 10:23 pm HHCIB, I'm not sure about what has happened specifically with your purchase, but if it's any help I know that an OB is responsible for prospective purchasers for 6.5 years after a Certificate of Final Inspection or Occupancy Certificate is issued. Bec Re: A question re OB selling property.... 6Jun 18, 2011 11:20 pm OB in vic cant build with the intention to make profit. But the key word here is intention. They could argue they could afford to keep it so they had to sell. If there are problems with the build you should still have 7 years warranty provided the needed a permit for the renos. Re: A question re OB selling property.... 7Jun 18, 2011 11:41 pm In Victoria to be an owner builder you must reside,continue to reside, or intend to reside in the property. You can only be an owner builder for one property every three years. (this is from the current Building Commission document "owner builder application kit" The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: A question re OB selling property.... 8Jun 19, 2011 12:40 am HHCIB. I just pulled this off the Building Commision of Victoria website "owner builders page": Future risks Cost of insuring prospective purchasers for 6.5 years after a Certificate of Final Inspection or Occupancy Certificate is issued Claims by purchaser within required statutory time period Many of these risks may influence the cost of building work. Risks are reduced where a trade contractor, being a registered building practitioner, is engaged under a major domestic building contract with associated warranties. Where the contract sum exceeds $12,000 and the contractors is required to provide warranty insurance, risks are further reduced. Contact your insurance broker about how you can offset financial risks through insurance. What liabilities does an owner-builder have? If a property owner sells their house within six years of completing works as an owner-builder, they must provide warranty insurance cover to the purchaser of the property. They are also required to provide a technical inspection report that identifies defects. It is important that owner-builders understand that the insurance policy is for the benefit of the purchaser and that the owner-builder will be responsible for ensuring that the work has been done according to law. It would appear that your OB has fallen foul of a number of these points. It would seem to state that the OB has to provide the technical inspection on the water issue that you are dealing with. Did they provide you with details of the building indemnity insurance? Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: A question re OB selling property.... 9Jun 19, 2011 9:37 am docker_rob In Perth you can't sell for 7 years without approval. For approval you need to show hardship or others reasons why to sell before this time. Bottom line can be done with the ok from builders board. Not sure why you are so worried though if you like the house is all that matters not what the Ob paid to Build it. Hi Docker Rob... Thanks for your input. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't give a hoot how much he spent renovating compared to how much we paid. You are right, if we love the property, why would it matter. And it started out like that (we knew from the start he had made a hefty profit). But when you find problem after problem after problem, the gloss soon gets rubbed off - to the point that we are now not even sure we will make this our long term family home (that was the intention) because we feel it has been 'spoilt' and we are not sure we can put our hearts back into it. Can't explain it properly, and shouldn't really have to actually. But what it now comes down to, is whether the OB has done anything outside of the guidelines, and one of the things brought to my attention is that it is stated that "OB's do not build for profit". So I was just interested in what that means. brbp HHCIB, I'm not sure about what has happened specifically with your purchase, but if it's any help I know that an OB is responsible for prospective purchasers for 6.5 years after a Certificate of Final Inspection or Occupancy Certificate is issued. Thanks brbp - this much we do understand. And we do have issues that we are about to tackle with the OB - we are just getting all our facts in place first. (We have already tackled plumbing issues directly with the plumber - but are yet to tackle the building issues with the OB) B STAR OB in vic cant build with the intention to make profit. But the key word here is intention. They could argue they could afford to keep it so they had to sell. If there are problems with the build you should still have 7 years warranty provided the needed a permit for the renos. Thanks B STAR - yes, I guess it would be fairly easy to get around it. They could argue they had every intention of living here, but then had to sell it. But I wonder if the onus is on the OB to prove what circumstances changed to make them suddenly unable to afford it? Even if they have managed to technically get around it and nothing that can be done about it, at the very least, I'd be happy to make life a little bit sticky for them just as they have made for us - and perhaps make them have to jump through a few hoops and prove their actions. Even if it is just to make them sit up and realise they can't easily get away with all the stuff they have tried to. Yes, you could call it sour grapes - but justifiably so. bashworth In Victoria to be an owner builder you must reside,continue to reside, or intend to reside in the property. You can only be an owner builder for one property every three years. (this is from the current Building Commission document "owner builder application kit" Hi again Bashworth.... yes, I read this on the Building Commission website. I am fairly confident that they never lived here (and without proof, fairly confident they never intended to). Thanks again Chippy. Let's just say I cannot wait for 9am tomorrow morning when I will be hot on the phone trying to find out exactly what the situation is. I'm sure whatever they have managed to side step, they would have covered their track or managed to find a loophole. But as I said above, even if it upsets their little applecart temporarily to have to answer some questions and realise that people are 'on to them' - it just might make them sit up and notice. I mean, not sure how much of what he told us is BS (all of it probably because he told us this was his 4th house they had done up),,,,, but, they also told us after finishing this house they did a letter box drop in the area asking if anyone wanted to sell (because he was rubbing his little hands together at how much profit he made). So it just all isn't making sense if he can only do one job every 3 years - maybe he would have bought and 'sat' on it for a few years. Either way, things aren't adding up and I'm determined to get to the bottom of it. He's caused us too much heartache and disappointment (and tears) for us to let him knowingly get away with anything from here in. Thanks for all your input guys. I'll keep you posted. HHCIB Re: A question re OB selling property.... 10Jun 19, 2011 10:25 am Ok So seems you have problems with the build quality or standards not the price paid. If it is a structural or non confirming build then he has to make good either by the original "Builder" (Or OB) for up to 7 years as mentioned already . Normally the Builders board once allowing the OB to sell will put a caveat on the sale saying they have to take out an insurance policy which will cover this 7 year period. I know that happens here and am sure would be similiar in Vic. Same thing required for mass market builders also as we just were provided a policy for a place my Mum built through a project builder covering such things So really it is whether your grief is with non complying building and not to standard (If so they must rectify) Or just things you don't like A building inspector could advise on this (Hopefully you had a building inspection completed before you purchased also) I think that is your best course of action rather than worrying about when he sold it to you as that hurdle he has already been overcome by the original OB https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=44762 My Owner builder journey extending a 1930's Bungalow Re: A question re OB selling property.... 11Jun 19, 2011 10:27 am i can only assume you are not in WA. I know registered builders here have to provide either a 6.5 or 7 year builder warranty( nt sure which it is) but can build and sell after either 3? 6? months provided they have lived in the property. The 3 year thing sounds familiar too so perhaps that is if they don't live in the property. Re: A question re OB selling property.... 12Jun 19, 2011 11:46 am Hi kexkez No, as mentioned in my OP, I am in Victoria. I understand the warranty aspect, I am now concerned with the laws/restrictions on them selling the property within a certain time frame - and if they are able to not live in the property. As Bashworth highlighted, the Building Commission website states the OB "must reside, continue to reside, or intend to reside in the property" and from what we understand, our OB did neither of those. Thanks for your help. HHCIB Re: A question re OB selling property.... 13Jun 20, 2011 4:40 pm update..... I spoke to the building commission.... at the time of applying for the letter of consent (approval for an OB job) they must tick a box that states that they intend to live in the property. Our OB never lived in the property. But apparently, according to the Building Commission, there is not much to stand on in terms of trying to prosecute. Apparently we would have a hard time proving anything and it is too easy for the OB to argue that their circumstances changed and they needed to sell. She said they would review the case (if we were to lodge a complaint) and possibly send it to an 'investigator' (but she was very uncertain if it would even get that far) and s/he would decide if there was a case and if so, it would likely end up in the Magistrates court. (I forgot to ask her if it would be the building commission prosecuting, or us - but I imagine it would be the BC - if they felt there was a case). From everything this woman was saying, it sounds like it is going to be extremely difficult to have anything come of this - sounds like it will be difficult even getting it past the first person that would read it/deal with it (a complaint letter). It's just a fraction disappointing that they have guidelines in place, but there is absolutely no recourse if those guidelines aren't adhered to or are blatantly flouted. Am feeling a bit exhausted and flat by it all already. Am not sure whether we will investigate further and push for 'a case' - or let it all go. Really bugs me though that he may very well just get away with it - esp because of the way he has gone about the whole 'job'. HHCIB Re: A question re OB selling property.... 14Jun 20, 2011 5:36 pm HHCIB, I thought that might be the case. Sad, but that is how things often work. The OB should still have to have supplied housing indemnity insurance. If you look at the building commission website you would see that they also had to provide you with a report from a licenced building inspector. If they have failed to do either then that is a far bigger issue than them selling for profit. Go back through your sale papers and see if it is clearly stipulated that it is an OB house. Then see if they provided you with details of the insurance policy, and see if there is any building inspection. Have a look at the Victorian building commission website under OB's and I'm pretty sure that the seller has not done all that they legally had to. You should still have plenty of ammunition to be able to go after them. You may even be able to go back to the real estate agent if they have failed to carry out all aspects of the sale. Don't give up. If they have done the wrong thing you should be able to get some form of redress. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: A question re OB selling property.... 15Jun 20, 2011 6:30 pm Hi again Chippy They have supplied the final inspection certificate that lists any defects. None are listed. That does not mean we cannot claim for any defects we find. In fact, it works in our favour for them not to have noted any defects, because if they had of, when we purchase the house, we are purchasing with the understanding that we are buying the house with those defects. They also supplied insurance (but tried not to - it was only that our conveyancer picked up that it wasn't in the contract of sale ). Not sure if it is the same in WA, but in VIC, the insurance is only valid if the builder/OB goes insolvent, dies, or goes missing. (Ludicrous, I know). But meanwhile, while they are alive and well and 'contactable' they are simply liable for any faulty work within the 6 or 6.5yr (?) timeframe. (Although I'm sure somebody at the building commission actually said we had 10yrs to claim). It's all very confusing. But suffice to say they did supply what they needed to - and we do have recourse to get our matters addressed (ie, leaking ensuite) so hopefully that won't be an issue because that is our primary concern. It was just that knowing we might have been able to put the OB in a bit of hot water for everything he has put us through would have been sweet justice. Like I said, we might keep investigating our options and not let this one phone call today stop us... but depends if we have the energy with everything else we have going on (and a family and house that we'd actually like to start enjoying). Really appreciate your support Chippy. Will post as anything comes to hand. HHCIB Re: A question re OB selling property.... 16Jun 20, 2011 7:18 pm Just because there is final occupancy doesn't mean there wasn't any defects. Final occupancy is to determine if the house is safe and livable. It is not to determine the quality of the house. Re: A question re OB selling property.... 17Jun 20, 2011 8:05 pm B Star is correct. From the vic Building Commision website: Required insurance for owner-builders when selling a building (home) to a purchaser The requirement for an owner-builder to provide insurance when entering into a contract to sell a building (home) constructed by the owner-builder is found in section 137B of the Building Act 1993. In addition to the owner-builder being covered by the required insurance, the owner-builder must give the purchaser a certificate evidencing the existence of that insurance. The required insurance is specified in the relevant Domestic Building Insurance Ministerial Order current at the time of entering into the contract of sale. If an owner builder sells their building within a 6 year period they are required to provide a report on the building from a prescribed building practitioner that contains the matters set out in the attached template. These templates can be used as a guide to preparing a report under section 137B. The template says that the final inspection certificate must be attached to this building inspection, so they are deffinately two different things. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: A question re OB selling property.... 18Jun 20, 2011 9:04 pm my understanding is you must reside in the house for a min 6mths in victoria before you sell and you cant sell without giving the buyers a certificate from a qualified builder and 6.5 yrs bs ins and yes if they aint dead then the ins is useless its up to you as the purchaser to get them to fix any defects you find in the next 6.5 yrs but if they say no not fixing nothing then you have to take them to court which could end up more then fixing the issue yourself. most owner builders will fix problems when they occur but like some builders they refuse and theres very little you can do that wont cost you an arm and leg in the process good luck hope it works out stay safe happy building Re: A question re OB selling property.... 19Jun 20, 2011 9:20 pm B STAR Just because there is final occupancy doesn't mean there wasn't any defects. Final occupancy is to determine if the house is safe and livable. It is not to determine the quality of the house. Well there wasn't any defects listed. My point being that if any were listed, then we are deemed to have taken those defects on when we purchase the house. If no defects are listed, but we find some, we can still claim to have them rectified. As Bingo Shelley pointed out, some will fix, others will refuse, some matters will end up in court. We are hoping he will fix our problem without us having to go to VCAT - but we shall see. I don't think I know all the correct terms and names of everything... but, we got a certificate of final inspection, an OB insurance report (that lists any fault/defects), and we got OB insurance warranty certificate (don't have that in front of me so not sure of the correct name for it). I'm getting confused by all the technical stuff, suffice to say, from what I can gather, they have supplied all the relevant documents that they need to supply. That has never come into question. (UNless I am missing something) Thanks for your interest guys. HHCIB Re: A question re OB selling property.... 20Jun 21, 2011 12:14 pm How Hard Can it Be , or goes missing. (Ludicrous, I know). Not ludicrous at all happens all the time The privacy act can be a good document to hide behind I just read your post and confused as to what the issue is was there an extension build by a previous owner If so wouldn't there be a paper trail of building permits with names etc You might be able to apply to divert the sewer at your expense. In NSW you would contact a Water services co-ordinator and they would give you advice as to whether or not… 1 16150 Ask for some kickplate to be added and also for tradies to be requested to use lanyards on tools on that side of the building. Be respectful and have the discussion… 1 1698 The setback from the kerb is 4m. It is council land to provide an area for services like sewer main, gas mains, water mains, underground power or poles for overhead power,… 4 2402 |