Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 21May 27, 2011 6:51 pm +1. Yes, it's daylight robbery. Their reasoning is that they don't always have regular work, they don't have holidays and sick pay, superannuation, etc, etc. But I reckon they're still on a good wicket and ripping people off silly. Unfortunately there's not a lot we can do about it. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 22Jun 03, 2011 9:28 am Grrrrr, if building was an easy way to get rich then everyone would do it! Stop moaning folks, if you don't want to pay the money then do it yourself, you will soon see that building is a pretty crappy job and that is why they charge what they charge. I am in the middle of a self build (ie I am actually on the tools doing everything not just managing the project...) and I can tell you it is worth every cent they earn. Steve Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 23Jun 03, 2011 10:23 pm Steve I take your point but I work bloody hard at work (teaching boys who often go on to do trades such as these ironically!) and I dont command that amount of money in a month never mind three days! Once could say that any profession is hard work etc etc but they dont commmand anywhere near the money that this industry does. Building costs in Australia are OTT, as are the materials and dont even get me started on the building attitude. It is slow, slow and downright slow ... often needlessly. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 24Jun 04, 2011 11:45 pm I am also a professional (with a trade background) with over 25 years experience in my field (Conservation and Restoration), I also work hard but consider I get paid well for a job I enjoy, I am a specialist and have a good market with high demand. My job is both physically and mentally quite strenuous and being self employed I more than aware of the difficulties of owning my own business. Self-employment is sooooo much tougher than being a government employee, which I was for many years. The risk and personal / financial investment in my own business is large, I do not get a pay cheque each week or even each month and like the building trade I get no paid holidays, sick leave and have to allow for my own super. I have a had customers pay invoices 9 months late, I pay over 10% of my turn over for basic insurances a year, I often spend a few thousand dollars (in time, travel, associated costs etc.) before I even get a job. I spend three days a quarter just doing my tax!! In a business that is service based I still only net 30% of turnover. I have physically built all of my house (except electrical and plumbing). Building is an extremely difficult job and I have had to study harder than I ever did when I was at Uni to learn how to do it. Having spent the last 3 years building my own home (whilst still running my business full time) I can honestly say building is a harder job with lower margins than what I do. It is a slow slow...downright slow process that requires a huge skill set and more than a degree in scheduling and management. I suspect that the 'owner managers' (that essentially attempt to employ people directly to cut the costs of project homes) have not done the their homework, do not at all understand what is involved and are more than a little naive about the real costs of building and/or running a business in the current economic climes. I also suspect that they have no idea how hard a life as a tradie is (health, comfort, economic issues). I am lucky (and a little stupid) to have had some insight to what it is like to be a builder, when.... I finish my house I will never do it again despite the fact that I have loved the hands on and learning experience, it is simply too bloody hard. I tried walking a mile in their shoes and I am surprised at how little they charge. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 25Jun 05, 2011 11:26 am i have to agree with steve on some points some trades way over charge eg:plumbers (but only on rough in and fitout charges) the laying of the pipes and drainage they earn their money 100% carpenters worth their weight in gold concreters a little over charged but then they all have bad backs and arthritis in later years so i guess its danger money in the end. bricklayers are too cheap its bloody hard work but overall i agree they earn their money and i too would never build again (hands on) its way more involved then most people think and after doing all the work ourselves i have a new respect for tradies. however some do overcharge which is why you should get as many quotes as you can to be sure your getting value for money stay safe happy building Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 26Jun 05, 2011 1:22 pm Shelley I would happily overpay you any day of the week, you are such a hard worker and your place is a credit to your tenacity and ability to aquire skills As both you and I have learnt over the last few years, it is a bloody hard slog, I often think unless people get on the tools they don't have a clue how hard it is. The key is being knowledgable about the build, ignorance costs you a heap of cash and is pretty easy to spot. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 27Jun 05, 2011 7:31 pm It all depends on what you call owner building.... If you're always on the tools yourself trying to save money, of course it will be difficult as you are not qualified and everything will take 3 times longer to finish. However, you can be an owner builder in the sense that you are a project manager, with very little hands on or skill required. I am not at all handy, and I didn't do a great deal other than some painting and cleaning up, but I owner built my home in 6 months flat, to a level equal to or better than any builder (and I worked for a volume builder for 6 years and have seen the "quality" of their work.....you would be amazed). It's all about doing your homework and being ORGANISED (and of course a bit of luck . My home was not standard, in fact it was difficult finding a builder who built to that level of detail and fitout. I estimate that I saved at least $50K in the process (6 years ago), and ended up with a superior product. I used and paid tradies just as the builders do. Yes there were headaches along the way, but you will ALWAYS have these even when you go with a builder. Trust me, builders make huge profits. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in the business. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 28Jun 06, 2011 9:59 am Only a fool would go into business with the intention of not making a profit, if you make a good profit then you are simply better at business, it does not make you a crook. Banks and mining companies make huge profits, builders make a reasonable profit and they earn it. You went through your project with the aim of saving money (which is really making money) how are you any different to a builder?? You motivation here is $$ also, does that make you greedy – No, just a little smarter at what you do.
As for the term "owner builder” the word 'builder' is the give away IMHO, there is nothing wrong with project managing, it’s just not building. The boss of the biscuit factory does not call himself the Baker! There are two distinct types of Owner builder, those that do it to save money and those that do it because they want an unconventional house. Unconventional houses are seldom about money and often require a skill set that most conventional builders do not have. I could not get a single builder to build my house, "too hard for any amount of money” and “Na, it’s not normal enough” were my 2 favourite responses. At the end of the day these are just my opinions and none of it matters as long as people are happy with what the choices they make. Your house sounds interesting ( I am asuming a sustainable build?), I would be intrseted to hear/see more about it, got a blog/thread of the build? Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 29Jun 06, 2011 10:05 am Steve the term builder refer to project managing the build. You dont have to be on the tools to be classified as a builder. There are builders in the industry you haven't even seen a house let alone been on the tools. Obviously if you choose to be on the tools as well you can save money. Professional builders can build houses much cheaper because they use cheaper materials from windows, timber, tiles and carpet and even the design is cheap and economical to build. The trouble with many owner builders they become passionate about the build and then in the end money is only money so they invest more money, because it goes so much further. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 30Jun 06, 2011 10:44 am I see your point regarding being the principle contractor as an OB and certainly many 'builders ' have not touched a tool in 20 years. I think for many people there is a massive risk with accepting the legal responsibilities of building under the OB license if you are just managing contractors and not really overseeing (understanding) the physical building. Then there are the expensive insurance problems associated with selling an OB house within 7 years of occupation certificate issue, that alone can loose any savings you make and then some. I think the bottom line is if you just want a basic house that you are going to stay in for a long period (7+years) , then it does not require many skills to OB one and you will save money. If you want and unconventional house then it will cost you regardless of any way you go. I don't really see a problem with OB’s being passionate about their build; passion about interesting buildings makes the world a little less like an ugly and boring beige project home. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 31Jun 06, 2011 11:04 am Steve Only a fool would go into business with the intention of not making a profit, if you make a good profit then you are simply better at business, it does not make you a crook. As for the term "owner builder” the word 'builder' is the give away IMHO, there is nothing wrong with project managing, it’s just not building. Your house sounds interesting ( I am asuming a sustainable build?), I would be intrseted to hear/see more about it, got a blog/thread of the build? Steve Nobody is insinuating that builders are crooks, in fact I'm sure most are decent hard-working people. But there is no doubt some tradies are. Othewise, how do you explain a quote for framing/trusses of $7K (which I paid and turned out fine) compared to $17K? What does that tell you? I'm sure most are honest, but some definitely aren't. And as B Star says above, an owner builder is still an OB whether they are on the tools or just project managing the job. Nobody can lay a slab, lay bricks, put the roof on, do the plumbing, the electricals, etc, etc, all themselves. In many instances they're not even allowed to by law. My home was not a "difficult" build, but it was very difficult to find a builder who had any idea of what was involved. It is a period style home (that's the style my wife likes), with traditional working fireplace, brick corbelling and octagonal windows (no brick cutting), huge Victorian cornices, 3m ceilings, etc, etc. I had to supply instructions for some of the tradies because they had no idea about this stuff. And if I went to one of the very few builders who did this type of stuff properly, they wanted an arm and a leg. If I went to a standard volume builder.....forget it. Yes, my home was built to 5 Star standards, before the regs were introduced. As was my first home in the mid 90's as I was energy rating homes back then. I obviously believe in sustainability / energy efficiency and can say from experience that it really works! My bills and comfort level in my home is testament to that. That was my experience. It was worth it not just for the savings, but for the learning experience alone. I learnt more about construction in 6 months than I did in the 15 years of theory before that. So my advice to anybody who asks is.....if you have the spare time and are prepared to do your homework, are interested in construction and how your home is built, then go for it. I would do it again. If you want a standard home built quickly without too many headaches at a reasonable price, then go to a builder. Cheers Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 32Jun 06, 2011 9:43 pm Steve. Quote: “I tried walking a mile in their shoes and I am surprised at how little they charge.” People in factories walk a hard mile but they sure are not earning as much. So I don’t think that physical strenuous work has anything to do with these ridiculous amounts charged. I have a university degree and I did do the hard yards at Secondary college and University for 5 years. I have friends who bludged their way through high school done a 3 year apprenticeship and are now earning 3 times more than what I earn. If you work as a tradie or a builder and work for yourself then you are laughing all the way to the bank. If you compare different jobs in different industries, the time it would take to acquire a certain skillset and compare the amount of money earned. I would have to say that becoming and being a tradie would be the easiest and most paid. If you want to be a doctor, engineer, pharmacist, IT analyst you have to have the right qualifications and experience. To be a painter, carpenter, bricklayer, concreter, plasterer and anything to do with building apart from plumbing and electrical. You need no qualifications. There are people with 1 month experience called themselves bricklayers, renderers, carpenters building your houses. The building industry, builders/tradies attitudes and building regulations in Australia are a total shamble and a joke. I am building my own house. I have never picked up a hammer before. I am almost at lockup now and I have done all the structural steel on my own ,fixed carpenters mistakes (who has been in the industry for 30 years and is regarded as one of the best carpenters in my area) Explain that. I built and waterproofed a 32 meter x 1 meter high retaining wall. And will be doing tiling, timber flooring plastering, painting …. On my own. And it is not all about saving money. It’s about quality and not giving into the Aus building industry. You want quality you do it your self. You want squeaky floors, cracking plaster and a half assed job hire a tradie and pay through your nose for it With my steel work I made $10,000. 7 Full days work. A majority of tradies/builders are butchers and have no professionalism about what they do and how they deal with people and to be dishonest is part of their job. And they are out to rob you even more , as if they are not robbing you already. Builders included. How can someone of their stature and calibre get paid so much money by our industry. The work may be physical at times but most of the time with the correct tool set it is quite easy. Working with a shovel, day in day out is hard work(not common in building industry these days) but holding a nail gun, tape measure, level or a hammer and nailing is not so physical. If you are interested in learning about Building and learning how to do something everything is there at your fingertips. Google and TAFE weekend courses. Ask yourself how could someone like me a pen pusher do the structural steel work for my house in and acquire the skills needed to do it in such a short period of time. If I learnt it on my own in a matter of weeks with no proper training and experience then why is it so this qualification so overpaid. I cannot learn how to be a doctor and start doing surgeries without paying hefty education fees, sleepless nights, pressure and a lot of practical experience.10 years of my life dedicated to aquire such a skill. But in Building you can learn whatever you need . Master it and do it in a very short period of time. Nothing you cannot learn over a weekend short course or some reading. The sky is the limit. Any normal person with some common sense can see this and thus question why are such Trades in the Building industry so overpaid. And when things go wrong (a majority of time caused by poor workmanship) no one is held accountable. The carpenter blames the engineer, the engineer the inspector and it goes around in circles. No one is held accountable. And the Building commission wants no bar of it. You’re on your own. You pay so much money for poor workmanship, unprofessional attitude and dishonesty. Learning and knowing what I do know about this industry I have decided to jump on the bandwagon and take the path to the goldfields whilst the gold is still plenty full. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 33Jun 06, 2011 10:14 pm BigO I have a university degree and I did do the hard yards at Secondary college and University for 5 years. I have friends who bludged their way through high school done a 3 year apprenticeship and are now earning 3 times more than what I earn. Hmmm......sounds very familiar. The story of my life.....we share a common bond. PS. A bit harsh on the tradies though Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 34Jun 06, 2011 10:26 pm To all lthe tradies out there the 10% that do not fit into categories spoken about in my post hope no offence is taken. This wasnt directed at you. And you deserve your money in some way! Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 35Jun 06, 2011 11:24 pm Do I dare stick my head up. One thing I've learnt from this conversation is that I obviously don't charge enough. Some of the prices being mentioned are insane. The other is that tradies must rank somewhere alongside politicians and used car salesman for trustworthiness. Steve thanks for trying to defend us tradesman, this is certainly a tough crowd. First thing I'd like to ask is if building is so easy and you can make so much money why isn't everyone doing it? The bottom line is, it isn't as simple as people think and there isn't as much money in it as people seem to believe. Firstly, if you aren't working you aren't getting paid (obviously). I know this may sound obvious but when take out all your down time (weather, holidays, sick days, quotes, doing paperwork etc etc) you realise that you are not making money 365 days of the year, in fact nowhere near it. You are also at the whim of the economy in general. When things are good, yes you can charge yourself out at slightly better rates but along with the good times come bad times. As a good tradesman you will usually survive the down times alright but it will still be lean. Secondly, your overheads are high. Insurance, superannuation, income protection, vehicle and tools to list a few. I personally have about $20k's worth of tools that need to be purchased, maintained and replaced. Yes all these things are a tax deduction but you still have to pay them. Thirdly, people can't learn what I know in a weekend short course or from some manual. I have been the first person on a site setting up the site shed's, right through to the last person on site doing a snag list. I've literally seen every part of a build both domestic and multi million dollar commercial construction. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, but just pointing out some tradesman have far more experience than just the basics. Do I think my experience is worth something? Definitely. As far as the trustworthiness of tradies goes. Well I can't speak for everyone but I know that personally I stand by every bit of work I do. I wouldn't put into someone else's house, work that I wouldn't be happy to have in my own home. If there is a problem then I will come back and fix it. Finally, I agree that there are cowboys in the building industry. But I believe there are cowboys in all industries. You only have to look at the GFC to see where the real over paid cowboys are. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 36Jun 06, 2011 11:41 pm Well that said Chippy do you know how to line a portico ceiling and can you do it?? Or do you know someone decent for me who can!!!!!! Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 37Jun 06, 2011 11:52 pm Line it with what? Yes I could do it, but not for another 2 months. I'm about to spend the next 2 months finishing my place (second fix, kitchen, cabinets, flooring, decking.......) Are you prepared to wait. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 38Jun 07, 2011 12:18 am Chippy, you sound like a nice decent fair bloke. Too bad there are not so many like yourself around. I think that you deserve what you get paid as well provided the circumstances. The costs are what they are. Not enough trades people to service the Building industry hence the amounts charged. You should consider yourself lucky as there is plenty of work for everyone even the cowboys. The things that I have learnt are from what I said. Google and building/framing books which I read as a hobby now. Everything is all there if you have the mind for it. My next house after this one is done. I will be doing the framing on my own. I can read the engineering plans, standard door window sizes etc, timber member spacings, ceiling heights bracing etc . To brick frame design Ceiling heights .Frame regulations etc ( I might have a few small questions in regards to roof trusses but prefabbed roof trusses make life a lot easier). It may be just me and I may have been a builder/tradesperson in my past life dont know. Once i figure out how to post pics i wil post a few of the work i have done. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 39Jun 07, 2011 12:42 am some photos of work done by a pen pusher Steel work balcony http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/img06 Steel work http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/img0671s.jpg/ Balcony and timber http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/img1208x.jpg/ Roof eave reinforcing for 900mm eaves and eave linning timber members http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/img1320i.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/img1434tl.jpg/ Hi VK, Think it's worth investing time in an Owner Builder course to equip you with basic knowledge on Australian Building Industry and its regulations. Also, I suggest… 11 23894 Hi all. Anyone know when the $11,000 limit was set in legislation for renovations in QLD? Ive been renovating for 5 years now and this was the limit back then. As we know,… 0 4432 |