Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 41Jun 07, 2011 5:41 am BigO, Good on you for having a go but using raw pine for exterior structural use! http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/img1208x.jpg/ you got a bit to learn yet buddy . Sounds to me like you don't read people very well if you have employed such a steady stream of poor quality workman. I am on house No 5 (and still consider I know nothing as a hobby builder) but have never had a bad experience with a single trade sub contractor, quiet the opposite I have employed tradies I would consider master craftsmen and for less than $50 an hr. I am tough about the standards I accept and do not suffer fools, having both a trade and professional background in the hands on sector of cultural heritage materials conservation and restoration. If expectations are unrealistic, this will lead to disappointment and such feelings of resentment, you need to be very clear about what you require. This thread just shows how different people have different experiences and that shapes the way we think and hence the outcomes we get. I have no doubt that there are ordinary tradesmen out there, but it is pretty easy to spot unskilled tradesman. Don’t start me on Engineers and architects though…… Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 42Jun 07, 2011 8:26 am As is said above, your experiences shape your attitude towards tradies. Most of these are positive, at least going by my own experiences. But one question to the tradies......How many times have you heard somebody say that the tradie DIDN'T TURN UP?? And that can be extremely annoying for people. Sure there are usually reasons for not turning up, but this is the type of thing that gives tradies a bad name. If I had a dollar for every time I heard this I would probably be retired now Peace guys Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 43Jun 07, 2011 11:39 am I must agree the no show is really bad, if I ran my business like that I would have gone broke years ago. I never give a tradesman a second chance if they are not punctual, it means that they place no value on the customers time which is quiet telling of their attitude. I expect a phone call if they are going to be late otherwise I just don't employ them. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 44Jun 07, 2011 11:51 am It a very hard to balance trade people. One of the issues i face is trying to balance price and making them turn up. If you try to screw trades people on price they usually dont turn up unless they dont have much work. If you are paying a premium then they are usually knocking on your door, and what to get the job done asap. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 45Jun 07, 2011 3:05 pm BigO, Good on you for having a go but using raw pine for exterior structural use! http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/img1208x.jpg/ you got a bit to learn yet buddy . Sounds to me like you don't read people very well if you have employed such a steady stream of poor quality workman. Thanks for the comments Steve…. But you obviously haven’t been in the industry for such a long time or may have been but have never built a house balcony before and hence cannot tell the difference from quality to poor workmanship. This is just the base of the balcony and H3 Treated pine is the most commonly used material for outdoor areas,pergolas,balconies, timber decks etc. in conjunction with Steel channels if needed. The actual supports are galvanised SHS collumns 100 x 100 x 10mm thick bolted and welded to 3 PFC channels. The Treated pine beams then are bolted onto the Joist hangers which I made from 10mm steel plates, had them hot dip galvanised then welded to the PFC Channel. What are a majority of balconies made from ? And if you are someone that has been in the industry have built 5 house and you do not know. (just what I was talking about earlier) Lack of skills and knowledge by a lot of people. “Sounds to me like you don't read people very well if you have employed such a steady stream of poor quality workman. I am on house No 5 (and still consider I know nothing as a hobby builder) but have never had a bad experience with a single trade sub contractor, quiet the opposite I have employed tradies I would consider master craftsmen and for less than $50 an hr” Obviously you run your own business and have established workers that you work with, and you have established rates you pay you’re workers. So you do not fit into the category of Owner builders etc. And therefore your comments are not valid. And if you think the way that my balcony was made according to engineering plans is wrong and not correct then …I will totally ignore any more knowledge you bring to this thread or others. Think you need to restore a few more balconies and see what they are made from. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 46Jun 07, 2011 5:10 pm Your getting all hot and bent out of shape now because you did not read what I wrote, I think your build quality is adequate; I strongly question your poor choice of timber. The use of pine for structural applications out doors without a coating system is a very poor choice; it is not dimensionally stable in fluctuating temperature and relative humidity. Changes in temperature and humidity will led to variation in the equilibrium moisture content (expansion and contraction of the timber) which will lead to checking, splitting and other such deterioration and a failure of its structural integrity. Its durability class is a very low 4, it will last a relatively short period of time in this application. An appropriate coating system will increase its durability but maintaining it in that position will be difficult. If you were leaving it uncoated then I would recommend a class 1 or 2 hardwood. The various projects I have done focus on sustainable building and as such I use recycled class 1 and 2 hardwoods to maximise durability, these timbers are not only the most durable but they are also some of the most benign building materials available and certainly the most beautiful. I avoid the use of heavy steel whenever possible as it's embodied energy renders it a very unsustainable product. I offer my opinion based on my experience, if you know better then just disregard my posts. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 47Jun 07, 2011 5:47 pm Steve, Like the bit about the use of recycled timber and avoiding the use of steel due to embodied energy considerations.....good to see a builder taking sustainability seriously Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 48Jun 08, 2011 1:46 am wow this got heated quickly guess theres alot of passionate people out there. ive been following steves build for as long as ive been building and i must say im in awe of the quality and attention to detail he has put into his amazing home. you only have to look at his pics to see he knows what his talking about.the quality and craftsmenship stands out like dogs balls and i doubt you would find any tradie who would put as much time and effort into such a place. the bottom line of this thread really is if you think your being over charged dont use that tradie the reason some tradies charge so much is because people pay it. im darn sure if someone offered you more money for your current occupation you wouldnt say no so. tradies can only earn what people are willing to pay so dont blame the tradies blame the ones paying them stay safe happy building Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 49Jun 08, 2011 10:41 am bingoshelley the bottom line of this thread really is if you think your being over charged dont use that tradie the reason some tradies charge so much is because people pay it. im darn sure if someone offered you more money for your current occupation you wouldnt say no so. tradies can only earn what people are willing to pay so dont blame the tradies blame the ones paying them Mmmm I should have just shut up and let you do the talking, you nailed it (intended pun). Thanks for your kind words re my build Shelley Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 50Jun 08, 2011 8:43 pm The balcony pine beams will not be exposed to any weather elements as they will be covered by compact cement sheets which will be then waterproofed and tiled. The balcony with be a part of the entrance porch therefore sealed from all angles. Some of my comments may have been blown out of proportion. Some of my best friends are tradies and my father is a tradie (electrician). I too know some really good tradies and are happy for them that they can make what the industry rates are. Do i think that Trade rates are absurd, yes i do . Do i think that they are overpaid. yes i do. Are all tradies dishonest, unproffessional and dont do a job that is worth the amount charged? No. In my area about 80% of tradies fit my latter description.And is see it time and time again. Its happened to me, friends, friends of friends, work colleagus and so on. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 51Jun 08, 2011 9:01 pm Hi BigO. I finally manage to read your post about the tradies etc. I agree with you 100%. I to didn't want to give into the building industry and was forced in a away to build my own house. I came to the realisation that professional trades people are phasing themselves out. I have worked around my father and uncles who took pride in there work and whom can think outside the square when needed, because they had the fundamentals and understood how tools and materials worked together. These days trades people just learn a process and when something different is required they **** themselves, and think they cant do it, so this limits themselves. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 52Jun 08, 2011 10:13 pm Following on from B Star's point... I've found that there are some very good tradies around, but when most modern-day / younger tradies are shown something a little out of the ordinary, they steer clear because it's either too difficult or they simply don't know how to do it. A classice example is stick-built roofs. How many chippies can do these nowadays? Perhaps they don't need to know.....everything is pre-fabricated. Ask a new brickie to do double brick.....they have probably never seen it. This is an issue with the whole building industry. It is so set in its ways it's not funny. And it varies from state to state. Being in the sustainability field, I can tell you most tradies (apart from our friend Steve ) have little idea. And I'm not saying it's their fault, it's just the way they've been taught. Other than standard brick veneer, they know little else (e.g. in Vic). There are many new innovative construction methods available which are more energy efficient / sustainable, and commonplace in more advanced overseas countries, but these are so foreign to our industry that they cost an arm and a leg to use them, IF you can find somebody that can do it. With tightening sustainability standards, this situation will change.....albeit very very slowly. It has to. The construction methods of today simply won't get the results in the long term (think zero emission houses), and there will be no alternative other than to learn new approaches to building. As one famous commercial says, "it won't happen overnight, but it will happen". That's my 2 bobs' worth. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 53Jun 09, 2011 10:45 am Looking at where the various complainants come from I think there is a clear city/country divide. Trades in the country cannot do substandard work and stay in business, in 'smaller' communities (none cities) they just don't get away with it. Trades in my area do not advertise, it is all word of mouth via the various community networks, the grapevine is alive and well and any substandard business does not last. I think there is a different client base with tighter budgets (lower incomes/cost of living generally), more versatile work requiring a broader range of skills etc. so quality workmanship at and affordable price is normal in country. Apparently the coffee is better in the city though? BTW I actually have 2 trades and a Profession but I work as a professional cause I can charge so much more Buidling houses is a hobby. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 54Jun 09, 2011 11:34 am Personally I despise most tradies after having to deal with them. There are a few gems but a huge amount of rubbish you have to sift through. A few examples, get a guy in to do bathroom floor tiling - comes recommended no less. Sitting at work when I get a call, big problem, there is a toilet here OMG OMG OMG what to do - who would have expected that in a bathroom. Turns out that he doesn't know how to work around non square objects but could do a messy job (his words) if pushed. That night I spend my evening removing 2 toilets - I am completely unqualified but with some thought and effort, I do it. Next night I have to replace the first 2 and remove the third, the next night I an back again putting the third one back. This is the sort of SH!T I don't want to have to deal with when I am paying someone a very good rate - MUCH more than I earn. My driveway, I agree with someone to do our driveway, older chap very experienced, highly recommended - we explain that we have very specific requirement and need flexibility, he arrives 3 days late, does work without consulting us. I catch him when I get home and ask about the topping, we discuss extensively what I!!!!! I repeat I want but HE is unconvinced, so as a compromise, he agrees to bring 3 samples the next day and I agree to give a fair judgement - probably going with his recommendation even though it is not what I really want. I am cool, calm and really friendly the whole time. Next day I find a note in the front door - long winded clap trap about how he feels we don't recognise his professional skills and "TRUST" him to do the job right. What about what I want?? Got another guy in a few days later that did exactly the right job for cheaper and most likely much better - that guy has since had a lot more work from me because he does what I ask for not what he thinks is best. By all means, make recommendations but then go with what I want!!! How about the guy who wanted to charge over $2500 PER CUPBOARD to add 3 shelves - oh and we have to remove the existing bar (the one you hang clothes onto) and some other rubbish I had to do, can't remember exactly what - poss top shelf) and then we would get 3 melamine shelves. Whooop de whoo!! What a load of rubbish. I could go on and on and on......Hopeless and useless tradies with zero problem management skills, poor workmanship, absolutely useless - can't even run a wire in the gap between bricks and plasterboard, tradies who don't turn up time and time again. So for that very small number of good tradies, THANK YOU, to the rest SCR3W YOU. </RANT> Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 55Jun 09, 2011 12:35 pm Gee bit hard on the Tradies in here. Just as there are good and bad Doctors, Lawyers, Dentists, Car park attendants, Chefs and so on there are good and bad Tradesmen (or women) But to lump all in one basket is rather harsh IMO. I do think that training standards have dropped in recent years (Particularly in Perth) where apprenticeships were cut from 3 years to 1 year at the height of the building boom, however as with any profession. You do a background check, look at their work and then make a decision. Price is one thing but so is their work standards and professionalism. In my case I am lining up my major trades well in advance, with a backup in line just in case. If one falls through or doesn't do the right thing it's on to option # 2 and that is my prerogative as I am paying the bills. To me it's like employing staff in a business. If they are no good you should part ways and find someone else. No difference in the building game. If however you are prepared to put up with poor work and attitudes who's fault is that? - The employer or the employees? 3timesbuilda Personally I despise most tradies after having to deal with them. There are a few gems but a huge amount of rubbish you have to sift through. If you feel so strongly about Tradies then really you shouldnt be OB'ing and let a Builder look after it. https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=44762 My Owner builder journey extending a 1930's Bungalow Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 56Jun 09, 2011 12:49 pm Builders have problems with trades too. It just part of the game. They just dont worry about it as much as owner builders do because its not their house. Owner builders usually have higher expectations because its their own house. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 57Jun 09, 2011 9:54 pm AFter my weekend and learning a few things about certian trades I thought were good sorts ... I am not sure who to trust .... cept maybe Onc!!!! If you want to hear some ripped off stories PM me!!! I can write a book. kay Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 58Jun 15, 2011 12:41 pm Hi Sanjeev, I too am looking at an OB. Bought a block last year also in the Liverpool area, new release land, and thankfully it does not come with any building restrictions. I have been looking at the display homes for the project builds but I like bits and pieces for all sorts of homes. It is just crazy to pay the ridiculous amounts for the changes. We have tradies in the family and are looking to build a 35sq home double story. We will be doing the following things ourselves (i.e not paying for labour, only materials) - slab (Mclass) frame, fixing (doors, skirting boards etc) stairs, floorboards, cupboards and shelving, doors, concreting, landscaping. We aren't planning in going over the top with all fixtures etc as we don't want to overcapitalise, but our budget is about 300k. That would be ideal, but we are prepared to go over if need be. Not sure if my 300k sounds realistic? Anyone want to comment? Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 59Jun 15, 2011 12:58 pm sydsider Hi Sanjeev, We have tradies in the family and are looking to build a 35sq home double story. We will be doing the following things ourselves (i.e not paying for labour, only materials) - slab (Mclass) frame, fixing (doors, skirting boards etc) stairs, floorboards, cupboards and shelving, doors, concreting, landscaping. Not sure if my 300k sounds realistic? Anyone want to comment? Dont always assume just because you have trades in the family you will be in a better position. In my eyes this is a big misconception. Re: What will it cost me as an owner/builder ? 60Jun 20, 2011 7:17 pm Hi Sydsider, From what i can make out from your post, Is your block in the "Talana" Estate. That's where I am building. Sanjeev sydsider Hi Sanjeev, I too am looking at an OB. Bought a block last year also in the Liverpool area, new release land, and thankfully it does not come with any building restrictions. I have been looking at the display homes for the project builds but I like bits and pieces for all sorts of homes. It is just crazy to pay the ridiculous amounts for the changes. We have tradies in the family and are looking to build a 35sq home double story. We will be doing the following things ourselves (i.e not paying for labour, only materials) - slab (Mclass) frame, fixing (doors, skirting boards etc) stairs, floorboards, cupboards and shelving, doors, concreting, landscaping. We aren't planning in going over the top with all fixtures etc as we don't want to overcapitalise, but our budget is about 300k. That would be ideal, but we are prepared to go over if need be. Not sure if my 300k sounds realistic? Anyone want to comment? Hi VK, I am now retired however I have stood beside over 300 owner builders in the past 18 years that have successfully built their own homes. First of all a building… 10 22606 Hi all. 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