Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 21Nov 02, 2009 7:40 pm greetings all if its of any help i belive the easiest way is to use the old fassiond 3 4 5 Square 3 Foot up & 4 Foot Across will give a measurement of 5 Foot on the diagnal you can modify this formula to suit your own slab or what ever else you want to measure as long as yo stick to the basic principal it will measure out the same 30 Foot Up & 40 Foot Across will be 50 feet diagnally 6 Foot Up & 8 Foot Across will be 10 Foot Diagnally hope this helps as it comes in very handy to measure anything, with this formula & a water level you can build anything square & level regards rod Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 22Nov 02, 2009 9:03 pm webzone onc_artisan I would be checking to see if your Dad as a buillder, would allow the owner to swan around in the mud like you suggest. I would be tipping you would have a walkout of your/my granos if you tried that on any of our sites. Its my site and I shall do as I please. I just did it and no-one complained. Who are you to tell an owner-builder what they can do on their site. onc_artisan Buy a pair of rubber boot(s) to look the part WTF ??? What you suggest turning up wearing running shoes or maybe thongs? WTF??? onc_artisan Control the added water?? how would a novice know what is which? Thats what you have two eyes for in the front of your head. Its pretty obvious to see them pouring water into the concrete. onc_artisan Keep the workers moving??? Why not just pour it yourself Maybe you are just so good that you dont need any gentle prodding. But not all concrete workers are as good as you. onc_artisan Sorry mate you lost me and I am in the business and only recently too... about 20+ years as an owner operator. You did make some good points, but I am a Rum drinker Of course I lost you. You want to do the job your way. In contrast the owner builder wants the job done the right way. Again you may be so good that your way is the right way but that is not the case with all jobs. onc_artisan PS With all those conditions you just doubled the cost of building the slab Absolute rubbish. [/quote] I don't see the point of joining a forum such as this so you can post some huge post about how to lay a slab and then insult a long time member and moderator Either you left some of your grey matter in your slab or you are an existing member posting under a different username and just out to stir the pot In either case, no one is interested mate. Blog: http://bluemistkids.blogspot.com "Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, and professionals built the Titanic." Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 23Nov 02, 2009 9:30 pm Thanks Hels rodrocket - a 345 will always give you sq if the tension is correct getting back to ol' mate - Hi webzone webzone Its my site and I shall do as I please. I just did it and no-one complained. Who are you to tell an owner-builder what they can do on their site. Firstly, if you choose me for your slab it would have come via recommendation not ad... 2nd : My insurance won't cover you, unless you have a blue card and a site induction has occurred, this is my duty of care.. webzone Thats what you have two eyes for in the front of your head. Its pretty obvious to see them pouring water into the concrete. That the concrete has not 'baked' and to just proceed allowing air entrapment etc.. webzone Maybe you are just so good that you dont need any gentle prodding. But not all concrete workers are as good as you. webzone *make sure the appropriate plumbing is in place. If you have an island kitchen then make sure all the services have been run to the island kitchen spot - not just plumbing but also electrical conduit. webzone * one option to reduce cracking is to use 20mpa concrete for the foundations and then use 25mpa for the floor. This is what they will do on commercial buildings. The concrete workers dont like it though - its tougher on the concrete pump and harder to finish/screed. More likely the commercial site will have 32mpa(or 40) concrete for the slab and 25 for the footings. Getting a finish with more cement content is waaaaay easier than with less, and the pump doesn't care what the mpa will finish at. Not many domestic footings are placed using 25mpa unless it is a monolithic slab. 20 mpa concrete is less dense so more moisture will ingress the footings than if it were 25 mpa, but I would NEVER second guess what the engineer has assigned (signed off on) as he is the professional in that regard. webzone Its my site and I shall do as I please. I think the council may have different ideas. webzone *check the plastic - you don(‘)t want holes in the plastic as it will let moisture through. Tape up the holes. Note - in South Australia the engineer must inspect and sign off on the foundations before any pouring can commence. You will find this is the same Aussie wide. webzone *watch for the concrete driver cleaning his truck. If you have a soil driveway (most likely) the water will end up turning the soil into slush and the concrete trucks will make an absolute mess and may end up having difficulty getting in and out. webzone Of course I lost you. You want to do the job your way. In contrast the owner builder wants the job done the right way. Again you may be so good that your way is the right way but that is not the case with all jobs. Do you watch your mechanic, offer advise or help, it is likely your life is in their hands and you don't have any say, or do you? Do you ask the pilot that is flying the plane you are in, to go another way? or fly lower and faster? ...just as a matter of interest do you live in SA, Qld or NSW? You obviously have OB many, many, many, houses, or was this your first foray? I expect you have lots to say, but rather than just explode and rant on why not ask a grano with more than 2 decades of experience. Sorry for the rant guys but, I don't take this tripe onboard when you guys might get the wrong idea, and start making demands that will never happen. Back to the blue corner for this fella except for this webzone *check the reputation of your concrete supplier if you are able to do so (its not an easy thing to do). Not all concrete suppliers are the same. We ordered the concrete from a supplier that has a tendency to exceed the specifications - ie request 20mpa concrete and it turns out closer to 25mpa. On commercial jobs they will take samples of the concrete and send it away for testing. So my brother was able to advise which suppliers sail close to the margin and wish suppliers dont. On a residential job you wont take samples so you have to rely on the suppliers reputation and your concrete workers. I bet I know your bro, but you don't know jack about concrete so don't pretend you do Onc Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 24Nov 02, 2009 9:44 pm Unfortunate, I was not there for the slab pour, I guess I saved a few bucks on the slab of beer. As I’m with a project builder, they seem to like you as far away as possible, China, when they do the pour. I’m not sure being there would have made much difference to the out come. I’ve not seen it yet, I hope there are no major cracks or stuff ups. I would like to thank all posters for their replies I believe each person has the opportunity to comment and share their experience that’s what a forums about. As they say “take what you can use, and leave the rest.” So, when I check it out in a few days I will let you know what I find. Regards to all KW……………….. “It's just as unpleasant to get more than you bargain for as to get less” George Bernard Shaw. Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 25Nov 03, 2009 9:19 am onc_artisan Thanks Hels rodrocket - a 345 will always give you sq if the tension is correct getting back to ol' mate - Hi webzone webzone Its my site and I shall do as I please. I just did it and no-one complained. Who are you to tell an owner-builder what they can do on their site. Firstly, if you choose me for your slab it would have come via recommendation not ad... 2nd : My insurance won't cover you, unless you have a blue card and a site induction has occurred, this is my duty of care.. webzone Thats what you have two eyes for in the front of your head. Its pretty obvious to see them pouring water into the concrete. That the concrete has not 'baked' and to just proceed allowing air entrapment etc.. webzone Maybe you are just so good that you dont need any gentle prodding. But not all concrete workers are as good as you. webzone *make sure the appropriate plumbing is in place. If you have an island kitchen then make sure all the services have been run to the island kitchen spot - not just plumbing but also electrical conduit. webzone * one option to reduce cracking is to use 20mpa concrete for the foundations and then use 25mpa for the floor. This is what they will do on commercial buildings. The concrete workers dont like it though - its tougher on the concrete pump and harder to finish/screed. More likely the commercial site will have 32mpa(or 40) concrete for the slab and 25 for the footings. Getting a finish with more cement content is waaaaay easier than with less, and the pump doesn't care what the mpa will finish at. Not many domestic footings are placed using 25mpa unless it is a monolithic slab. 20 mpa concrete is less dense so more moisture will ingress the footings than if it were 25 mpa, but I would NEVER second guess what the engineer has assigned (signed off on) as he is the professional in that regard. webzone Its my site and I shall do as I please. I think the council may have different ideas. webzone *check the plastic - you don(‘)t want holes in the plastic as it will let moisture through. Tape up the holes. Note - in South Australia the engineer must inspect and sign off on the foundations before any pouring can commence. You will find this is the same Aussie wide. webzone *watch for the concrete driver cleaning his truck. If you have a soil driveway (most likely) the water will end up turning the soil into slush and the concrete trucks will make an absolute mess and may end up having difficulty getting in and out. webzone Of course I lost you. You want to do the job your way. In contrast the owner builder wants the job done the right way. Again you may be so good that your way is the right way but that is not the case with all jobs. Do you watch your mechanic, offer advise or help, it is likely your life is in their hands and you don't have any say, or do you? Do you ask the pilot that is flying the plane you are in, to go another way? or fly lower and faster? ...just as a matter of interest do you live in SA, Qld or NSW? You obviously have OB many, many, many, houses, or was this your first foray? I expect you have lots to say, but rather than just explode and rant on why not ask a grano with more than 2 decades of experience. Sorry for the rant guys but, I don't take this tripe onboard when you guys might get the wrong idea, and start making demands that will never happen. Back to the blue corner for this fella except for this webzone *check the reputation of your concrete supplier if you are able to do so (its not an easy thing to do). Not all concrete suppliers are the same. We ordered the concrete from a supplier that has a tendency to exceed the specifications - ie request 20mpa concrete and it turns out closer to 25mpa. On commercial jobs they will take samples of the concrete and send it away for testing. So my brother was able to advise which suppliers sail close to the margin and wish suppliers dont. On a residential job you wont take samples so you have to rely on the suppliers reputation and your concrete workers. I bet I know your bro, but you don't know jack about concrete so don't pretend you do Onc At least this time you have responded with some content. Your first response was simply a slap in the face to someone that was trying to help out. I said very clearly that I am not an engineer and I am not a concreter - but I am not an idiot and this is not my first construction project. I simply outlined the steps that I went through and the advice I was given by a couple people who have poured many many jobs. So it was a real life experience and I thought it would be helpful to the person who asked for comments on pouring a slab. I did not have any issues with my concreter and they did a good job. I could respond to each of your individual comments - because I dont think your correct in all of them - but that would just extend this debate. I am also happy to accept anything that may have been off the mark - I have nothing to gain from this other than just trying to help out someone. For the benefit of the independent reader you could have responded in a constructive manner (rather than adversarial) and provided further information rather than just taking a swipe as you did in your first response. To the independent reader - just make your own mind up - but the attitude being expressed here is typical of what you will get from some contractors. Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 26Nov 03, 2009 11:05 am Webzone - You may care to do a search of the posts I have made on this forum, (there are a few) and make up your own mind if I am anything like ‘some contractors’. You might like to consider that I consume about 30 hrs a week to help Mod this GREAT forum. ...and offer insight to the trade I love, with passion and think I am more than half decent at.. ...so forgive me, if you happened to target a thread dear to my heart. ( I am male and around 50 and have been playing with concrete since before my 21st birthday) Oh and in business, as an owner operator since 1991. I personally don't think I am like ‘some contractors’ that sounds more like a slur you are attempting to cast against me and my name and nature. Though I could be totally miss-guided and in fact you could be talking about the decent ones whom do care. Yes you are correct, I could have been less terse... and yes you were trying to help someone. Onc Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 27Nov 03, 2009 11:34 am So Guys how about sharing some of that experience with me. Now that my slab is down I would like to know a bit more about the drying and setting process. We have had a few hot days in a row. The builder told me they use an additive to set it off quicker and I was told that no one wets them down anymore (only what I was told). I believe the slab is 20 kpa. How can I tell if it was minimum strength mix? Will it be on any documents from the supplier? It’s a waffle pod. Also how do the boys walk in the slab if it’s a waffle pod? I think it would not be possible without breaking the foam pods? True curing time? I have seen the some frames go up within a few days of a slab pour. Lucky for me they are a bit busy and I will have 2 weeks before they are on it. Does it make any difference now they use additives to set it faster? If there are small hair line cracks is that ok? If so what can be done about it? I believe a surveyor has to inspect it, is this any reassurance? Thanks for your kind assistance. Regards to all KW…………. “It's just as unpleasant to get more than you bargain for as to get less” George Bernard Shaw. Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 28Nov 03, 2009 11:47 am Geezus... If it has rapid hard cover the bloody thing now and add water Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 31Nov 03, 2009 1:01 pm trusting you have got that going KW... ...and you are back ... I will continue.. The mpa will be on the delivery dockets from each truck, along with slump and mix details .the grano guys will be walking on the slab all day. By the time they step off, it will have reached gelset ( or intial set ), ...10 hrs later (cept non specific conditions) how ever thick. you will be able to scratch it, but foot traffic will not have an impact. Also when the guys get off it and have finished the deform, clean up, and probably a bite to eat and a drink you could be providing a curing program. Water will slow the hydration, ... rapid, and the micro pores can become less stable... the shrinking of the slab is rapid on an uncovered slab on a hot day. ... and is likely to be the reason for most hairline cracks ( much like when a creek bed dries out and leaves large cracks) And some major cracks internal corner to internal corner. If the day has been hot during the pour and water has been added to the truck to re-gain the slump... because the pour was going slow, then that conc will go off like a rocket during the finish. ... the grano will be forced to hand trowel a finish with the aid of water, as we used to. The best you could do for the cure is to reduce the speed of the hydration process. out gassing of the water can/daoes create fissus(sp?)and if the surface was finished as I said ^^then the surface, as I am sure everyone has seen, will frett and leave a dust finish. Curing is overlooked a lot because we test the concrete on a regular basis ( the plant does) ...for strength to meet guidelines only. The engineer signs off on a document, have a look at what it says on your plans about curing. It will be in the top right hand corner under 'Slab detail'. Most if not all the plans that come across my desk, mention some form of curing. Yes there are curing compounds, but sometimes these become barriers for future trades,. ..tiling for example. necessitating another phase sanding or grinding for what.. Time is what ppl lack and it costs to have it on tap, returning to a previous job to collect or maintain the curing process was once the job of the apprentice after the pour for the day was complete.(still is here) Hessian was widely used and ‘ponding’ (sand shovelled to dam the non-wet areas) and with it was lots of water... but water was considered wasted, so now we cover it with plastic hessian and water if a special(mostly) surface is required or tiling is to be done. 'tis my take and possibly worth a bob. Onc Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 32Nov 03, 2009 7:15 pm Thanks to all As you said time is money and I have never seen a slab covered or being wet down after the pour. It did rain 2 times in the week and I was very happy to hear it on the roof. I guess if you are with a volume builder you just have to sit back and let the professionals do it, their way. I, like you would have liked to see it done propely ,but hey you have to put some trust in the people in the trade. I will take my camera, tape and plans to make sure all is where I think it should be. Row, no pix as yet. But will try to get some and start a tread. Hope all is well with you. Cheers KW.......... “It's just as unpleasant to get more than you bargain for as to get less” George Bernard Shaw. Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 33Nov 04, 2009 7:02 am WOW! What an interesting thread. I'm a big believer in being proactive in your build, but there is a definite line between being pro-active and vigilant, and being an interfering PITA..... even if you are paying the bills. Webzone, I reckon you well and truly cross the line..... and I am not a concreter. I've always tried to think about my behaviour as an owner in terms of how I like to be treated as a worker, and have related it back. My working life has been in horse racing, yep and owners pay the bills.... and some of them are just plain dangerous. I have had owners let their kids run around the stables while horses are on the move to be worked, hosed etc. I've had owners tell me how to bandage a horse's leg or apply a poultice... WTF??? I've had owners rush a horse for a "cuddle" while I am down at the horses leg attending to something.... no worries, it's only my head that could get kicked. I've had owners move metal gates across concrete while I walked past with a horse.... both me and the horse have ended up in the air when the horse get the sh1t scared out of him. I have had owners tell me that I have tightened the girth too much and I'm "hurting the horse" as I saddle for race. WTF???? So do I listen to the owner, because he "pays the bills" and has a "right to be there". Or do I saddle as I know I should and as I've been entrusted to do? Hey, if I listen to the owner, I'm only putting the jockey's life at risk when his saddle slips and he could fall and maybe bring down other horses and jockeys. Yeah, owner you can F**K OFF in that instance.... and I have in effect told them to do so. Didn't make me popular sometimes, but it made me damn good at my job. Just because he in effect pays my wages doesn't make him any less of a PITA, distraction and danger. Most owners shouldn't be in stables until the horses have finished work and been fed and are away for the morning..... sounds harsh as they are the "owner" and "pay the bills". But when staff are hurt or interefered with by "well-meaning" owners you start to see things that way. I know I have waffled, but I worked in an environment very similar to a building site in many ways. When you are surrounded by like-minded people that understand how the whole thing works, you can relax and enjoy your job and just get on with it. Add in some "owners" who think they have the right to do whatever the hell they like because they pay the bills.... and the job gets a whole lot more frustrating, a whole lot less enjoyable and a whole lot more dangerous. Like I said at the start of this post, I am a big believer in being pro-active and vigilant in your build. But at the end of the day, you employ people to do a job.... just let them do it. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 34Nov 04, 2009 3:14 pm joles But at the end of the day, you employ people to do a job.... just let them do it. I did just that and ended up with a badly cracked slab, out of square and off the plan, with kick-in edges and other faults I had to pay over 5K to correct. If had been doing it again I would watch the b&@$y granos like a hawk! Most everybody I talk to has a horror story about the concretors. Their job may be hard and messy, but that shouldn't justify widespread sloppiness. Chris. My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 35Nov 04, 2009 3:28 pm kristofw joles But at the end of the day, you employ people to do a job.... just let them do it. I did just that and ended up with a badly cracked slab, out of square and off the plan, with kick-in edges and other faults I had to pay over 5K to correct. If had been doing it again I would watch the b&@$y granos like a hawk! Most everybody I talk to has a horror story about the concretors. Their job may be hard and messy, but that shouldn't justify widespread sloppiness. Chris. There is a very fine line between watching what is going on and interferring. And as Joles said it's very easy to step over that line. Blog: http://bluemistkids.blogspot.com "Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, and professionals built the Titanic." Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 36Nov 04, 2009 3:32 pm There is no need for ** work.. it should be exact. OBing doesn't mean the granos are able to walk away. What was the 5k for? onc Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 37Nov 04, 2009 7:35 pm onc_artisan There is no need for ** work.. it should be exact. OBing doesn't mean the granos are able to walk away. What was the 5k for? onc $500 to surveyors for squaring and marking the slab for trimming and 1 addition. $700 for deepening bathroom drop down, only to find that the slab was far too thin there $500 to an engineer to check the area and spec a remedy $2300 to a concrete cutter for squaring the edges, cutting out the thin section and re-laying it. $1000 for plumbers to re-do wastes and to Termimesh for securing the joints. And what price for 3 months delay ??! Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 38Nov 04, 2009 8:14 pm The time is a big issue I understand delays ...but the cost was borne by you kristofw? I hope not. Disapointed this wasn't checked by the granos on completion and an alert recorded. That is lazy, at least with warning something can be done. The boys will normally leave an external brick line scratched into the surface ... as we have set out the slab have all the profiles of rooms, wet areas/setdowns etc.. this makes it easier for the brickie and alerts you to any deviation from the line and a kick in the Bhind was the norm Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 39Nov 04, 2009 9:20 pm onc_artisan The time is a big issue I understand delays ...but the cost was borne by you kristofw? I hope not. Disapointed this wasn't checked by the granos on completion and an alert recorded. That is lazy, at least with warning something can be done. The boys will normally leave an external brick line scratched into the surface ... as we have set out the slab have all the profiles of rooms, wet areas/setdowns etc.. this makes it easier for the brickie and alerts you to any deviation from the line and a kick in the Bhind was the norm By me, no one else. I'd paid the b#@&!d in full before I realised the full extent of the problem. Chasing him up afterwards would've been whistling up the wind. I absorbed the loss because I needed to move the project ahead, not waste my time in arguments and litigation. The off square/off plan was bad, 'cause I was getting a prefab frame and trusses. Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: Your slab, what to look out for? 40Nov 04, 2009 9:24 pm Hmmm but 5K that is a lot, we could have had penty of beers for that. Where you are coming from is where you are going to... No the fireplace doesn’t work. It’s been enclosed. I’m not sure what was removed, as it was done quite some time ago - well before what I can see with photos online… 2 11589 Interested in getting either the Polytec Boston Oak or Palace Peak for kitchen cabinets. Looking at the Boston Oak ones, it appears that the colour varies significantly… 0 9181 4 14309 |