Can anyone tell me whether there is a standard contract I need to use with subcontractors eg plumbers, sparkies etc?
Thanks
JB
Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum 1 Apr 16, 2009 4:15 am Can anyone tell me whether there is a standard contract I need to use with subcontractors eg plumbers, sparkies etc? Thanks JB Re: Contracts with subcontractors 3Apr 18, 2009 10:21 am BUMP! any other advice on this? In NSW? and do u need a contract with everyone who does more than a set amount of work? eg the excavator? Cheers! Re: Contracts with subcontractors 4Apr 18, 2009 10:37 am Disregard - i just found this! Should have looked first! http://www.buildingcentre.com/ownerbuilder/contracts_and_contractors.php Re: Contracts with subcontractors 5Apr 18, 2009 10:39 am At the HIA show they had a stand where you could "ask a builder". They had a registered builder sitting there looking bored reading a paper and drinking a cup of tea, so I could tell he was clearly a real builder . I asked him quite a few questions, and got these answers some of which were more helpful than others - Q - What contracts do I need between myself an subbies? A - none if they are performing an individual trade eg sparky, plumber. Q - What signs do I need on my block? A - must display your name and contact details, building surveyor name and permit number. Building Commission has templates. Q - Do my subbies have to provide me with a JSA? A - JSA is old term for safe work method statement. They are supposed to provide that to you. Q - Do my subbies have to sign a site induction? A - Every individual coming on your site has to be provided with a site induction. There is no requirement for them to sign anything. Q - Do you want to have a look at my plans? A - Yes, I suppose I've got nothing better to do. JB Re: Contracts with subcontractors 6Apr 18, 2009 10:43 am Would like to know this too. Adelaide though... Re: Contracts with subcontractors 7Apr 18, 2009 9:45 pm HI all, i'm no legal expert so i don't know what if any legal requirements there r other than those listed below. i have never entered into a contract with any subies - i get written quotes, but no more - most subies i know would not be interested in "contracts" they can get enough work without having such hastles - they r not builders. with the exception of plumbers & electricians the standard of any subies work is a matter of being to ur satisfaction as the Licensed Builder, just as it is the Registered Builder who has to legally stand behind the standard of any subies he engages. with the houses i've built as an o/ber over last 40 years, this last one was the only on i had to reg as an o/ber, so when i went to register, i made a lot of enquires about what i had to do as a "licensed O/Ber" - all the requirements as far as i can see fall into 4 categories- 1st Builders Reg Board ( ie need to get O/b license) 2nd Standard of building & Aust Building Codes. 3rd Legal Obligations on site as to Health & Safety. 4th Restiction on the Sale of an O/Ber house. In WA most of the legal requirements revolves around the "Builders Registration Act 1939 an ammendment 1993" i guess each state will have something similar:- 1stly Builders Reg Board - they don't want people being unregistered builders which is fair enough so require a special builders license which is the Owner Builder License which must be displayed on the site. "Building work over the value of $12,000 must be carried out by a registered builder or a licensed owner builder." this is where a lot of o/bers get confused with value of work done by subies - anything over $12,000 needs to be done by a Reg Builder or Licensed O/ber, theres no restriction on the subies as they r not the BUILDERS - u are! 2nd Standard of building & Aust Building Codes. lot of help available on line or thru forums like this, or buy a copy of the Codes - problem then is with updates & ammendments, & u might be surprised to find quite a few pro builders & tradies dont directly subscribe to Codes or updates, but use their specific professional bodies who send out updates for each trade. BUT as i mentioned above the subies standard of work is up to u to accept or rectify, once they leave the site u become responsible for the standard of the building - thats why some people steer away from buying o/built houses, then on the other hand many o/bers will put extra strength into a building. 3rd Legal Obligations on site as to Health & Safety. if u haven't built b4, or have never worked on a building site, IMO u really need to do an O/Ber Course ( prices around 18hrs cost $285-00) i've had a fair bit of experience over 40 yrs & have a friend who is a pro builder, but went and did a "Blue Card" course cost me $100 - i believe u can do online for much less, but i suggest u do one where its a group of people face to face, becos when i did it there were experienced tradies on the course who had a heap of experience to share about what health & safety matters actually happen on site.i got a lot of good info from this course as the presenter was well experienced in many other building & construction requirements - tagged electric cords, scaffold, hard hats, safety vests ect... Remember if something goes very wrong with ur build & it ends up in court for whatever reason, u will have to prove that u had " a reasonable ability to sucessfully manage & coordinate a building site & can demonstrate an understanding & knowledge of Owner Building obligations that relate to excersing the privilages of a building permit" thats why doing a O/b course is VERY important if u haven't experience. 4th Restiction on the Sale of an O/Ber house. Info sheet from Builders Reg Board states " You may not enter into a contract to sell or otherwise dispose of a dwelling built pursuant to an owner builder license (within 7 years of the issue of the license) unless a policy of Home Indemnity Insurance is in force and has been provided to the purchaser." so taking all this into account IMO the biggest thing to remember is that u as a Licensed Owner builder r legally responsible for the building of ur house, getting contracts with subies doesn't remove that responsibility. IMO it is ur responsibility to meet the subies on site b4 they start & show where basic facilities r, where 1st aide kit is & alert them to any particular hazards...common sense or site induction - whatever u call it just make sure u do it & record when u did it in a site diary. getting a written quote protects u in case of arguements when it comes time to pay. just remember subies aren't builders, some of them don't have a lot of suplus cash & have young families to care for - i always offer to pay either a deposit or something up front for materials - most times they dont want it, but making the offer starts u off on the right foot & IMO is a goodwill thing. hope this might help - not saying its the legal requirement, just how i've gone about it. cheers tony Re: Contracts with subcontractors 8Apr 18, 2009 10:27 pm Thanks Tony for sharing all that info. I have found the building commissions website to be quite confusing regarding owner building and had a bit of a freak out the other day after reading: The owner-builder must also: • Engage registered building practitioners for work over $5,000 unless the single trade is exempt under section 6 of the Domestic building Contracts Act 1995 • *Enter into a Major Domestic Building Contract for building work over $5,000 that is carried out by a contractor • Ensure the Registered Building Practitioner has from the contractor domestic warranty insurance for building work over $12,000 • Obtain a defects report if selling within 6.5 years of completing the work • Provide warranty insurance for a future purchaser of the property if selling within 6 years of completing the work • Insure the adjoining property against damage when undertaking protection work. *For domestic building work exceeding $5,000 in value, the contractor will be required to be a registered building practitioner and provide a Major Domestic Building Contract. The contract must be in writing and include certain minimum features as defined under the Domestic Building Contracts Act 1995. The trade contractors who will require registration (for work over $5,000) and insurance (for work over $12,000) include: • Carpenters • Bricklayers • Concreters • Roof tilers • Swimming pool installers • Cabinet makers and kitchen contractors • Restumpers • Bathroom renovators • House relocators In addition, plumbers, gas fitters and electricians need to be licensed with their respective licensing bodies. The owner-builder must provide the registration details of contractors engaged in the building work at the end of the project as part of their application for a Certificate of Final Inspection or Occupancy Permit. I had read it before when applying for the certificate of consent but it had been lost amongst all of my paperwork in the mean time. When i went onto their website to check if the tradies we were using were registered builiding practioners not one of them were Now the tradies we are using are some of the best in the district and are completely trusted by hubbie in their quality of work. So I rang the building commission to clarify and they said that legally we are doing nothing wrong if we don't use a RBP but that we leave ourselves open to being liable for any wrong doing from the tradies and that the strongly recommend that we do. And im like well thats fine if you are building in Melbourne and have many RBP to chose from but around here not many of the tradies have signed up and then there is actually no guarantee that their work will be of higher standard. The last bit really worried me though about getting final occupancy permit so I rang our building surveyor and he said that there was no problems with the fact we were weren't using RBP's. So that was a huge relief as we really wanted to use the tradies that we had chosen. Cheers Kate Re: Contracts with subcontractors 9Apr 19, 2009 12:49 am Hi Katie 08 - if i had read all that it would have frightened the sox off me too..... but me being old & ill informed on modern day quangos i) what or who is the "building commission"?, ii) speficically what does the exemption under Section 6 of the Domestic Building Contracts Act apply to.? there is no doubt in my mind that the days of present building system r numbered, ie instead of a tradesman simply being a person who has industry recognised qualifications of his or her trade, by the complexity of regulation & governance they r going to have to have all range of insurances re work quality. IMO it will reduce number of individual tradies & it will become a company setup - has happened already in plumbing, electric, roof framing, roof cladding etc. also puts another hurdle in front of O/bers. i can't understand why if we sell under 7 years whats wrong with present indemity insurance arrangement? what happenes if only 10% of Oz tradies take up being Registered Building Practioners? on the otherhand it may just be a "fad" like quality assurance was, pushed by govt & big business but meant absolutely nothing - some of the shoddeist outfits were QA'ed to get an edge in supply & services. i went thru all that rubbish years ago so if i was to supply products to govt depts & bigger business i had to have QA - i refused & simply stopped supplying - 12 months later after they were paying twice my standard prices they came back and surprise, surprise there was no mention of QA requirement ever again. anyway its ur building inspector who will legally let u into ur new home & he is onside - enjoy ur hard work & satisfaction of ur home Kate - cheers tony Re: Contracts with subcontractors 10Apr 19, 2009 1:06 am James Bond Q - Do you want to have a look at my plans? A - Yes, I suppose I've got nothing better to do. A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Contracts with subcontractors 11Apr 19, 2009 6:32 am katie08 Thanks Tony for sharing all that info. I have found the building commissions website to be quite confusing regarding owner building and had a bit of a freak out the other day after reading: The owner-builder must also: • Engage registered building practitioners for work over $5,000 unless the single trade is exempt under section 6 of the Domestic building Contracts Act 1995 • *Enter into a Major Domestic Building Contract for building work over $5,000 that is carried out by a contractor • Ensure the Registered Building Practitioner has from the contractor domestic warranty insurance for building work over $12,000 • Obtain a defects report if selling within 6.5 years of completing the work • Provide warranty insurance for a future purchaser of the property if selling within 6 years of completing the work • Insure the adjoining property against damage when undertaking protection work. *For domestic building work exceeding $5,000 in value, the contractor will be required to be a registered building practitioner and provide a Major Domestic Building Contract. The contract must be in writing and include certain minimum features as defined under the Domestic Building Contracts Act 1995. The trade contractors who will require registration (for work over $5,000) and insurance (for work over $12,000) include: • Carpenters • Bricklayers • Concreters • Roof tilers • Swimming pool installers • Cabinet makers and kitchen contractors • Restumpers • Bathroom renovators • House relocators In addition, plumbers, gas fitters and electricians need to be licensed with their respective licensing bodies. The owner-builder must provide the registration details of contractors engaged in the building work at the end of the project as part of their application for a Certificate of Final Inspection or Occupancy Permit. I had read it before when applying for the certificate of consent but it had been lost amongst all of my paperwork in the mean time. When i went onto their website to check if the tradies we were using were registered builiding practioners not one of them were Now the tradies we are using are some of the best in the district and are completely trusted by hubbie in their quality of work. So I rang the building commission to clarify and they said that legally we are doing nothing wrong if we don't use a RBP but that we leave ourselves open to being liable for any wrong doing from the tradies and that the strongly recommend that we do. And im like well thats fine if you are building in Melbourne and have many RBP to chose from but around here not many of the tradies have signed up and then there is actually no guarantee that their work will be of higher standard. The last bit really worried me though about getting final occupancy permit so I rang our building surveyor and he said that there was no problems with the fact we were weren't using RBP's. So that was a huge relief as we really wanted to use the tradies that we had chosen. Cheers Kate Hi Kate Good to see another VIC OBer, wherabouts are you - sounds like you might be in country Victoria from your post. The tradies here in Melbourne are just as likely not to be RBP. I'm not really sure what the point of the registration process is if everyone ignores it? JB Re: Contracts with subcontractors 12Apr 19, 2009 10:11 am Hi JB, Yes we are in country victoria about 3 hours west of Melbourne at the base of the grampians. I too wonder about the whole registration process and until they make it compulsory it wont be across the board. When i spoke to the building commision I asked what was the process for the tradie to become registered. She said that it takes about 6-8 weeks and there is a bit of paper work to be filled out. So I can imagine most tradies wouldn't bother wasting their time unless they had to do it! Good luck with your build, checked out your blog and it looks like a fantastic block Re: Contracts with subcontractors 13Apr 19, 2009 10:53 am katie08 Good luck with your build, checked out your blog and it looks like a fantastic block Cheers Kate, only wrote it yesterday! JB MBA and HIA both have sub contract agreements, check them out 2 7315 Industry type domestic contracts are prepared by industry bodies for the benefit of the builders. This means that if you are the owner watch out. One of the points is… 0 3226 |