Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum 1 Jan 20, 2009 8:47 pm The concretors didn't do very good job at all!!! The various bits of the slab are off the plan dimensions, by as much as 60 mm. The wet areas recesses are badly out of square and the shower hob is too small. I wonder how out of square it all is. There're quite a few long cracks too, especially in the part they poured later in the day . I've had a qualified builder out to have a look at them. He said that the cracks're mostly surface and for a single story house there should be no problem. When I pointed to him the other faults he tried to console me by saying that as the slabs go, mine's about average I haven't seen many others and measured none, but by my standards it's a very ** work. I can't begin to imagine how bad those at the bottom end must be.
Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 2Jan 20, 2009 8:55 pm While your builder friend is no doubt correct in his assessment it does point to a glaring problem in our industry and that is the continually slipping standards,
Unfortunately owner builders are susceptable more than others for this sort of thing because many times you simply are not aware until too late. It then highlights the fact that Owner Building, while very rewarding (sometimes) and cost effective (sometimes) is still a very risky business that needs to be managed really well. If you are really worried about it, and if you haven't paid the concretor then pay a few hundred dollars and get a professional inspection done by a specialist on concrete. I know a really good one in Melbourne but I could probably help you out in other areas as well. Feel free to PM me if you want. Remember, the slab is the structural support for the building and in the end it may be worth buying some peace of mind Builders are people too.... Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 3Jan 21, 2009 12:40 am Hi Chris & builda, a good lesson here for those about to do slabs - as i mentioned b4, ur the builder not the tradie - regardless who sets out the slab, YOU must check profiles for square & height. check shower hobs against wall profiles ( gee it annoys me to see an increasing lack of good profiles for internal walls these days!)
again chris all is not lost - firstly - there r showers put in with no set down - i don't like it as i've had a lot of problems when i've done it once only! that aside, i see 2 options & CHECK these ideas with the builder who looked at the job, he's seen it i haven't. but if u r still worried u might consider:- firstly u could perhaps "shave" by running say 25 mm deep cuts off the edge which is short by cutting lines with an angle grinder & masionary disc then "chisel" out with hammer drill & chisel attachment. if set down is say 50 mm then build up tapper up to get a smooth but sloping shower floor with 25 set do at shallowist point. IMO cutting 20 to 25 mm down in a 100mm slab in a non load bearing position should not weaken the slab - mesh should be around 50mm depth into the slab - i wouldn't cut that deep, dont like cutting thru mesh. secondly by infilling some of the existing set down, build the extended area up to above slab height & brick up section around the floor with HUGE amount of damp course. re 60 mm, squareness issue. 600mm would be a big problem, but depending where this is 60mm is, it might be just a bit of pride , IMO it is vital to get it squared up right now - don't try following an out of square building - it will go up walls, jigger up pitching points & roof sheet squareness on roofs & make ceiling instalation interesting. without seeing the problem the best advise i can give u is to reduce layout down in size to gain squareness, definately don't try adding to the edge of a slab - fatal for movement after. if the 60mm is internal, just change wall positions. if it is on overall slab find exactly where the problem is & u can cut the edge of the slab in until square - doesnt have to be right thru slab as u will also be over the footing, just enough to retain 50 mm cavity if its b/veener on outside wall if u follow me? one of the most common mistakes i've seen is in setting out walls and getting the wall off square by the "thickness" of the wall!!! ie setting out one end to an "inside measurement" the running the wall line to the "outside measurement" at the other end! again it is not the tradies job to check all this ( though most will) u r the builder u have to do the final checking. now building ur slab 60mm onto someone elses block would be a problem & my uncle had that happen in Perth and sued his neighbour - lawyers did well, kept it running for years & eventually the building was cut back... cheers tony Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 4Jan 21, 2009 1:06 am wow im so sorry to hear that chris, id be tearing strips off the concreter ( my dam irish temper) ive seen this on many building sites where the slabs overhang the frames by heaps i guess they cut it off later but seems very sloppy work. just giving obs another reason not to trust the industrie. at least if i make a mistake its mine and ill fix it, but some tradies just say its fine and walk away leaving you with the clean up and the bill for their mistakes. its stories like this that must totally frustrate the great tradies out there who try to do the best job they can.
i hope you can sort it out and it dosnt cost you the earth just time i guess fixing it gl chris Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 5Jan 21, 2009 7:32 am Here in Brisbane, you must get a licenced surveyor to do the slab setout... Is that not that case anywhere else? Electrical Engineer... Don't hold that against me... And keen owner builder... Mainly the building part!! Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 6Jan 21, 2009 8:30 am we got a builder to help set out our slab and check it b4 it was poured... all plumbing etc was in a the right position, and only 1 wall was a little out (cm or 2)... we checked it, but still thought paying a builder for a few hours while the concretors were there was well worth it!
we're lucky to have found a buiilder thats happy for us to call on and ask a million question and he'l pop over to do small or big jobs for us. the joys of ob! i think its normal to make mistakes (especially 1st timers like us), but most are fixable, it may just cost us a little more in the long run live and learn! Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 7Jan 21, 2009 1:25 pm Thanks everybody for your support!
Quote: id be tearing strips off the concreter ( my dam irish temper) Quote: IMO it is vital to get it squared up right now - don't try following an out of square building - it will go up walls, jigger up pitching points & roof sheet squareness on roofs & make ceiling instalation interesting. Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 9Jan 21, 2009 2:38 pm call in a professional to give you some advice on what is now required. The slab is such an important part of the house.. and I think the chippies will be peeved if the slab isnt right when they get there to do the frame..
edit: just realised that as an OB, you are probably going to do the frame yourself.. good luck with that if the slab is still out.. -Sha Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 10Jan 21, 2009 4:05 pm Quote: edit: just realised that as an OB, you are probably going to do the frame yourself. If I were 20 years younger, I would, maybe . My experience with DIY and now O-B tells me that by the time I've finished I know just about enough to start....... Anyway, nowadays I'm only up to framing the tradies' dunny. I'm looking for a good chippy to do the frame and trusses for us. Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 11Jan 31, 2009 12:13 am check your contract...(you do have one with the concretor don't you?)
I know in Vic, any work over $12K the contractor MUST be a registered builder...(over $5K needs a contract, over$12K needs contract and Builders registration)... see: www.buildingcommission.com.au if you're not happy with the work, go to this site (or call them maybe) and locate the 'guide to standards and tolerances', a very handy little document. Go through the figures for concrete, this will give you ammo to question the concretor about if you need to. ......the post here refers mainly to brickies, carpenters, concretors etc...there are exemptions and other fine print so certainly have a good read at this site. Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 12Feb 03, 2009 7:05 pm Has the frame been set out on the slab with chalk lines yet? You will really only know how bad the slab is once this is done. If the frame hangs over the slab at all a ledger plate can be dynabolted to the slab to support the frame (a must if more than 15mm overhang). If the frame sits inside the slab and you are cladding to the ground, just chisel the slab back. The steel should be minimum 40mm cover deep anyway. As for the shower recess... nothing an angle grinder can't fix. Working in the building trade i see this ALL the time. There aren't many problems that can't be fixed. As for the concretor's workmanship, the set out may not have been done correctly in the first place. Was it set out by a surveyor? Did you check the hurdles? To cut a long story short dont stress it can be fixed with minimal effort. In fact many multi million dollar developments i work on have similar issues but when finished they are PERFECT.
Charlie you are correct in saying that all trades should be registered as a DBL(for a cost) if doing work over $12000 for an owner-builder but the fact is that they don't have to be to work for a DBU builder (where most tradies work comes from). There is no-one to police this and most tradies dont even know they should be registered until they look in to getting their own builders license. Good luck with the build, i hope you dont find it all so stressful! Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 13Feb 03, 2009 7:11 pm My apologies, I should have said 'if working for an owner builder' they must be registered...if working for a builder they are covered by the builders warranty insurance...thanks for pointing that out.
cheers...!! Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 14Feb 03, 2009 8:29 pm Quote: Was it set out by a surveyor? Did you check the hurdles? To cut a long story short dont stress it can be fixed with minimal effort. No, the granos did set outs themselves. They didn't bothered with the hurdles, just put in some stakes and ropes. The formwork sucks too, a few edges are out of plumb quite a bit. I've been fixing things and paying for fixing things and hopin that in the end "she'll be right". Quote: Put up some pics They're on my thread https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.p ... c&start=15 Lots more cracks than on the pics. Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 15Feb 09, 2009 1:25 pm Well, my sorry saga continues and "she's not right"
The slab's out of square here, there and everywhere and the frame won't fit without overhanging (by as much as 30mm) on considerable distances. The support mass concrete for the patio column was out of place too. I phoned the grano guy, he fixed that, but the correcting the edges is a much harder problem. I'm seeing my architect today, to consider the options. Fixing apparently involves cutting the edge, or patching it up, or both. In any case it'll cost time and money. I've had the drop-down in the bathroom increased. That didn't come right neither, the refo's been uncovered and there's hole to the ground there, the concrete in that spot just crumbles. So I'm calling off frames, brickies, etc, and will concentrate on getting ALL THE SLAB PROBLEMS FIXED once and for all. My advice to all O-Bs is "beware of cowboys" and "paying peanuts gets you monkeys" Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 16Feb 09, 2009 8:59 pm kristofw My advice to all O-B is "beware of cowboys" and "paying peanuts gets you monkeys" Chris Chris, you are absolutely right. I told the monkeys I employed to set the level of the slab and lo-and-behold the slab ended up 60mm higher than I told them. Good job I had deliberately given them a level 50mm lower than I actually needed, I could tell they were idiots so took preventative measures. My advice is to check everything they do, especially measurements. If it is wrong, cancel the pour until its right. If they won't put it right, tell them to walk. Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 17Feb 09, 2009 9:03 pm Hi Chris, I wish there was something I could say to make things better for you. I am so sorry to hear that things are not ok with the slab....keep us informed of how you go with the architects.
All the best. Ruth Ruth -Bought house in Melbourne inner burbs, knocked it down & now...we are owner builders! Completed OB project and moved in to our new home with our new baby in May 2009! Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 18Feb 14, 2009 5:33 pm Went on a bus trip today with other Owner-Builders, to view a couple of projects around Perth. Almost everybody I talked to had a horror story about concretors and slabs. In most cases it was:
- drop-downs not deep enough; - dimensions wrong; - no concrete vibration; - taking form-boards off too soon (uneven slab edge); - adding water to the mix resulting in cracks; - uneven surface; One bloke told a story about his concretor arriving at 7 in the morning, in the middle of the week, with breath fragrant with booze. Sure enough, his slab surface came up in waves and he had to have it ground down to level. On a walk around the nearby green, I've noticed footings for a multi-level house, poured 2/3 and left like that. Far as I know, footings should be poured in one go, otherwise they'll be structurally unsound. All this is some consolation for me - misery loves company - it begs the question though - WHAT'S WRONG WITH THOSE GUYS?!?". Is it the nature of the trade, general erosion of working ethics, building boom attracting the ******* Brother types or some sort of a bug spread by the wet concrete ?? And why such ** practices are tolerated by builders, authorities and home owners?? As for my slab, I'll have the surveyors out, to put the house's outlines on the slab and mark all that's wrong, then engineers to check the drop-downs and finally concrete cutters to bring it to square. Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: They stuffed up my slab!!! 19Feb 16, 2009 11:29 pm Hi Chris & all, i've just read ur post on the owner builders bus trip - what a good idea, but sadly i'm not surprised at the list of "grano faults"....basically IMO the whole list of issues demonstrates one very important fact - lack of supervision by the builder !!!!! the drop downs for showers etc should be set down days ahead of the pour. likewise the set out - its not the granos job - basically a grano has to be strong enough to wrestle concrete - not layout ur building project. most of the issues raised there should have been found well before the pour started.
re the other post about deliberately setting levels wrong to allow for anticated "monkeys" is totally beyond me - the height of the slab should be clear & obvious to even "blind freddy" - the top of the slab is the top of the formwork - its not a "guess where" matter!!! what comes out of this to me is that while its fine for professional builders using electronic levels & a few pegsfor setting out, IMO for basic safety owner builders should use proper profiles so that anyone coming onto the site for the footings, slab & starting walls can see exactly what happening, what the levels are, anyone can check for square & if theres a problem there r nuerous points of reference for checking - end of story...... also when u put in profiles u immeadiatly get the first "taste" of what the layout looks like on the ground instead of on the plan. its the builders job to either do the layout or check it if a surveyors done it - we can all make mistakes, profiles give a number of "eyes" the chance to see whats happening - this is the biggest expenditure u will probably make in ur life - why expect a grano worker to set it out!!! one further tip, if u put in profiles, buy 5 or 6 little paint tins or rumage about in the shed & find some old paint and color code the lines....makes it so easy for anyone coming onto the site to find their way around when putting in footings, marking out walls etc. - i think it would have save Chris a heap of worry, time & money & made it more fun not the nightmare its become - hope this helps those who r about to start - cheers tony Ask the council if there is a chance of getting build over easement exemption. Sometimes easements are unused and 24cm is not all that much. Good luck. And yes any builder… 2 15190 Although I am a big opponent of using waffle pod slabs over H2/P soils under any circumstances, in your case I would certainly opt in to keep piers under central… 1 2728 |