Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 21Oct 17, 2008 11:20 am i agree and disagree
owner building is not for the faint hearted thats for sure but i have found that people love telling you what your doing wrong espeacially builders so you can draw from their experiences and research every stage before you complete it.i know very little but im not scared to give it a go i dont personally know any tradies but i run into alot of tradies who are only too willing to tell you your crazy.they say have you done this or have you done that ummm no well then you need to do that first,so you research what they say ask millions of questions and do what needs to be done its really not hard but very very time consuming so if you are time short then dont do it but if you have plenty of time and can wait for tradies then cmon guys its not rocket science.people have been building houses since early settelment and im sure they didnt have degrees. its really common sense and its been so much fun we are definately doing it again but next time we are building a kit home given our location its hard to get materials at a reasonable price. if you have reasonable expectations and know that mistakes are going to happen,builders make mistakes too we see it on the news all the time,research each and every stage and ask lots of questions you can limit your mistakes,but dont be put off by people telling you not too 9 out 10 times its builders saying dont because its their trade your infringing on and they hate that they went to school to learn how to build but anyone can get a liscence to build a house.lets face it if everyone owner built their own homes then builders would only have commercial property. so it makes sense that they dont want anyone without a trade to owner build.just my opinion of course im sure their will be plenty said about this reply Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 22Oct 17, 2008 6:50 pm Quote: just my opinion of course im sure their will be plenty said about this reply Let me get the ball rolling... Asking millions of questions isn't necessarily going to solve your problems. I can only imagine that you will mainly receive 'point of views' rather than what is actually required, which will add further confusion while giving tradesmen the ****! And some times i'm sure you won't even know what questions to ask until its all too late... Yes, builders make mistakes, but not usually as a result of having NFI about what they're doing; it could be due to over-committing themselves to too many projects (therefore attention to detail suffers), something being overlooked on the plans, calculation errors, poor communication and misinterpretation and so on. If builders can so easily make mistakes, how do you think an OB would fare when the cost of every mistake comes out of your pocket? Quote: 9 out 10 times its builders saying dont because its their trade your infringing on and they hate that they went to school to learn how to build but anyone can get a liscence to build a house.lets face it if everyone owner built their own homes then builders would only have commercial property. so it makes sense that they dont want anyone without a trade to owner build. Absolutely not. It's potentially a good thing for builders as they will be engaged half-way through (many, not all) the project to rectify all the errors. Builders have more pressing issues ATM, for example, the 'credit crunch', cost of materials and trade shortages. If you think that OB's are of a concern to builder's, well then you're in fairy land... Quote: people have been building houses since early settelment and im sure they didnt have degrees. Do you mean 'the early settlers'? Yes, houses are still built from bricks and mortar, but that's about where the similarities end i'm sorry. You are more than welcome to attempt one of my assignments if you wish seeing as it's not 'rocket science'.... Quote: so you research what they say ask millions of questions and do what needs to be done its really not hard but very very time consuming If it's very very time consuming, wouldn't it be easier to pay a builder to perform the work so that the risk is on their shoulders rather that yours? Wouldn't you be making more money actually doing your day job rather than spending copious amount of time trying to solve a puzzle with no pieces? Wouldn't that be....V V V V V V V V Quote: really common sense Purchasing and/or building a house is (obviously) one of the biggest assets that most people will ever subject themselves to. At the end of the day, it's not my problem; I can only do the best I can to inform you of the potential implications should you choose this path. By the way, this is all just my opinion... Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 23Oct 17, 2008 7:13 pm KWOOD2 Quote: just my opinion of course im sure their will be plenty said about this reply[/quote/] Let me get the ball rolling... Asking millions of questions isn't necessarily going to solve your problems. I can only imagine that you will mainly receive 'point of views' rather than what is actually required, which will add further confusion while giving tradesmen the ****! And some times i'm sure you won't even know what questions to ask until its all too late... Quote: ok only tradies we are using are the plumber and electrician we have another guy helping that has built houses before but not qualified and my building inspecter is very helpful and only too happy to tell me what is required by law Yes, builders make mistakes, but not usually as a result of having NFI about what they're doing; it could be due to over-committing themselves to too many projects (therefore attention to detail suffers), something being overlooked on the plans, calculation errors, poor communication and misinterpretation and so on. If builders can so easily make mistakes, how do you think an OB would fare when the cost of every mistake comes out of your pocket? Quote: if you research and ask questions then i believe you have the information needed to either do the job yourself or recognize your not capable and get a tradie in to do a particular job. there are a hell of a lot of *** builders who cut corners to save costs owner builders are known for over engineering and using more expensive materials and as its their only project are very particular things are done right.but there is however good and bad in both cases Quote: 9 out 10 times its builders saying dont because its their trade your infringing on and they hate that they went to school to learn how to build but anyone can get a liscence to build a house.lets face it if everyone owner built their own homes then builders would only have commercial property. so it makes sense that they dont want anyone without a trade to owner build. Absolutely not. It's potentially a good thing for builders as they will be engaged half-way through (many, not all) the project to rectify all the errors. Builders have more pressing issues ATM, for example, the 'credit crunch', cost of materials and trade shortages. If you think that OB's are of a concern to builder's, well then you're in fairy land... Quote: my point wasnt so much a concern to builders as builders being the ones saying its their job and regular people shouldnt even attempt it Quote: people have been building houses since early settelment and im sure they didnt have degrees. Do you mean 'the early settlers'? Yes, houses are still built from bricks and mortar, but that's about where the similarities end i'm sorry. You are more than welcome to attempt one of my assignments if you wish seeing as it's not 'rocket science'.... Quote: sorry i forgot to mention i went to rmit for 12 mths to become a builder unfortunately i got pregnant and had to pull out but it gave me limited knowledge on foundations and a full copy of the australian standards and an understanding of how to decifer them to a point Quote: so you research what they say ask millions of questions and do what needs to be done its really not hard but very very time consuming If it's very very time consuming, wouldn't it be easier to pay a builder to perform the work so that the risk is on their shoulders rather that yours? Wouldn't you be making more money actually doing your day job rather than spending copious amount of time trying to solve a puzzle with no pieces? Wouldn't that be....V V V V V V V V Quote: i dont work as we live in a town where unemployment is extremely high (we rely on farmers for employment) so this is our way to get out and make an honest living my building and renovating houses hubbys looking at getting employment 100kms away so a 200km round trip everyday but we need the finances to complete our build so we are definately not dole bludgers Quote: really common sense Purchasing and/or building a house is (obviously) one of the biggest assets that most people will ever subject themselves to. I am not a pesimest and t By the way, this is all just my opinion... [quote] everyone is entitled to their opinion i just felt a lot of times on these forums people get discouraged more then encouraged thats all Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 24Oct 17, 2008 11:15 pm Keep going bingoshelley and KWOOD2, you discussion's very interesting and informative. I'm still too green in O-B to venture an opinion, all I can say that when first got interested in O-B I was wildly optimistic, with a "can do' attitude". Now I know that it's a full time job, the learning curve's so steep that my head spins and the more I learn the more I realise how little I know.
Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 25Oct 19, 2008 1:47 am Pat the draftie My two cents worth: Im going to build a 50sqm addition to my house in the new year. Ive done all the plans, details, specifications myself, and I reckon I had every single thing covered. I was thinking of going owner builder. Last weekend I got a builder friend around to have a look, give a ballpark quote, and have a general chat about the whole process. He picked through all my information, and identified about a dozen problems, that could have costed me serious time delay and dollars. Conclusion: This owner builder game is a serious undertaking, you really do need to know what your doing, how to manage the timing of trades, the timing of ordering and delivering building materials, ensuring site supervision, site safety, etc etc. I will not be going owner builder now, The plan now is that Im going to sign up a builder, get him to set a garenteed fixed price for the build, get him to set a fixed deliver programme for the build, and get him to take on all the responsibility of the build. I will happily take on the builders mark-up price, with the piece of mind that I dont have to stress about it every day. Pat. well, you can't really save much on a 50sqm project can't you. Paying a builder mark-up o a 50 sqm is not alot. But when you build a 400sqm house then it will be different story. Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 26Oct 19, 2008 1:59 am so far we only heard most the negative comments abt OB and hey, those who gave a negative comments are not even an OB himself. I would really like to hear from an OB point of view.
There is no point listen from someone saying how ******* to be an OB without being one him/herself. It is just like saying how good is the car without having really seen the car before. Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 27Oct 19, 2008 10:19 am kristofw Keep going bingoshelley and KWOOD2, you discussion's very interesting and informative. I'm still too green in O-B to venture an opinion, all I can say that when first got interested in O-B I was wildly optimistic, with a "can do' attitude". Now I know that it's a full time job, the learning curve's so steep that my head spins and the more I learn the more I realise how little I know. Chris Hi Chris, Just noted that you are from Perth. Have you attend the Owner Builder Seminar yet ? I have attend it yesterday and i found that the seminar is very helpful. Yes, being an OB is a full-time job. I'm running my own business and i'm doesn't not need to be in the office all day long so time for me is flexible. One more things there is plenty on Tradesman man willing to help OB. If you attend the OB similar you will know that there is a OB Tradesman network which we can find a reliable tradesman inside the network which have done OB work and willing to do the work. Just based on the yesterday attendance there is abt 150 people attend the seminar and the seminar run every week. You can amazing there will be alot of OB out there in the future. Being an owner builder not only save money but we are in control of all the things like material used and quality. I will definately attemp the OB route and i will update you guys the process. Don't be scare of the negative comment given because nothing is impossible. Everyone had thier first time and you will be proud of what you have done at the end. Enjoy being an OB. Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 28Oct 19, 2008 11:37 am noidea so far we only heard most the negative comments abt OB and hey, those who gave a negative comments are not even an OB himself. I would really like to hear from an OB point of view. There is no point listen from someone saying how ******* to be an OB without being one him/herself. It is just like saying how good is the car without having really seen the car before. well said noidea the reason i got fired up was im sick of people trying to put others off being obs.i know very little but have learnt heaps being an ob and im loving every bit of it.yes its time consuming but its not that hard and having seen numerous display homes i know i can do a better job and will. TO ALL PEOPLE THINKING OF GOING THE OB ROUTE DO IT DO IT DO IT. Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 30Oct 19, 2008 2:20 pm Quote: Have you attend the Owner Builder Seminar yet ? I have attend it yesterday and i found that the seminar is very helpful. Yes, being an OB is a full-time job. I'm running my own business and i'm doesn't not need to be in the office all day long so time for me is flexible. Yes I have, twice as a matter of fact. It's not bad, but overly optimistic in my view. The books're great help, but they should be treated only as a starter, there's tons of info that's not there. Quote: One more things there is plenty on Tradesman man willing to help OB. If you attend the OB similar you will know that there is a OB Tradesman network which we can find a reliable tradesman inside the network which have done OB work and willing to do the work. I think that Minx has raised a very important point, confirming my greateast fears, which is about the quality control. O-B is an easy prey for ******* Brothers, he's inexperienced, one-off and probably unwilling/unable to get into disputes or costly litigations when ripped off. Am I still going ahead with it? Yes I am, but with far more apprehension than originally. And I'm ready to run for help and hire a pro, if I find myself in over my head. Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 31Oct 19, 2008 2:22 pm Minx I'm telling you my story from an OB's point of view as well as someone who just recently become part of a construction company. I am OB my house, 12km from the CBD in Melbourne. I will have spent around 500k. My land is worth over 500k easy and my house will be worth a conservative 1.2-1.3 million dollars if not more when completed. It is 55sq, 5 bedroom, 3 bathrooms. Oh and there is an office downstairs and a study upstairs. There was little that i sacrified for. Yes I used the best materials, posi system for floor joists rather than the junky stuff, jarrah timber floors, porcilan tiles, ilve oven and canopy, kohler basins (at $700 each, I have seven of those).....see where i'm getting at.... Anyhoo my partner and I are committed to eachother, however, this is my house and my project of almost 5 years. My partner hasn't spent a cent on it. Yes my partner has hooked me up with sweet deals, yes he has given me advice and knowledge, he got paid for the work he did (only to cover overheads no profit). He has not, however, taken on the role as a builder. This was both of our decision as no matter what happens he has no claim what so ever on my house and also he is very busy with his own construction work. My biggest issues that I have faced in OB is quality control. The carpenter who did my frame was unfortunatley not my partner, but he stuffed up when installing the steel beams. This meant that my partner had to spend time to fix that up and level the floor. My sparky is a cowboy, I can honestly say that he is a sparky for the money rather than the love of the job. I could go on. These quality control issues are more of a concern to my partner and once highlighted to me, me also. That is unfortunatly how the cookie crumbles. I have been ripped off by another guy at the tune of 15k.... I will ask myself the honest question. Will I ever OB again? NEVER, EVER, EVER. That is no exaggeration or lie. I will build again, however I have decided along with my partner that HE will be the builder, I will help with designing and say what goes into the build. I wish you all the best of luck with OB. My journey is almost over. Al I have left is getting my floorboards sanded and polished, getting carpets in the bedroom and study, getting showerscreens, wardrobe doors, glass spashback in one of the kitchens, stainless steel ballustrade inside the house and on the front porch, glass ballustrade on the balconies, fit off for heating and aircon and exposed aggregate on the driveway and concreate around the side of the house. wow minx sounds like a palace congrats hun sorry you got ripped off by tradies but builders rip people of too so damned if you do damned if you dont.anyway thats a big achievement for a house that size well done Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 32Oct 20, 2008 4:59 pm noidea well, you can't really save much on a 50sqm project can't you. Paying a builder mark-up o a 50 sqm is not alot. But when you build a 400sqm house then it will be different story. Bear in mind that the percentage that the builder will charge is usually greater on smaller projects... noidea so far we only heard most the negative comments abt OB and hey, those who gave a negative comments are not even an OB himself. I would really like to hear from an OB point of view. There is no point listen from someone saying how ******* to be an OB without being one him/herself. How would you know? I am infact an OB and I am telling you the way it is in my opinion (and my experience). noidea Being an owner builder not only save money but we are in control of all the things like material used and quality. Rubbish. There are builders out there that can and will provide you with whatever material you want provided that it's clearly stipulated at the tender stage so that the builder can allow for it. You can't expect Dom Perignon for the price of house champagne... ...and you will pay through the nose for materials if purchased by yourself. 9 times out of 10, the mark-up that a builder places on materials is less than the discount he/she receives. Understand the logic? Nothing is impossible, but sometimes you need to be realistic! Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 33Oct 20, 2008 5:31 pm bingoshelley if you research and ask questions then i believe you have the information needed to either do the job yourself or recognize your not capable and get a tradie in to do a particular job. there are a hell of a lot of *** builders who cut corners to save costs owner builders are known for over engineering and using more expensive materials and as its their only project are very particular things are done right.but there is however good and bad in both cases I wish it was as easy as you make it sound. As I have stated there are ******* builders out there as well as sub-contractors - then there are ******* owner builders. I can tell you right now that there are more ******* OB's out there than builders and sub-contractors combined. Builders and subbie's run the risk of loosing their licences due to * work - they cannot afford to, it's their livelihood! Over-engineering costs money and that's well and good if it's your place to live in and retire in (and if you have an open cheque book), but over-engineering really is a waste of money. I would agree that there are many OB's out there that would demand only the best for their own home, but it's those that build speculative homes (for a quick $$) that concern me. There is no way that I would want to fork over my hard earnt cash with the knowledge that a house was built under the management of an OB with little or no experience. Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 34Oct 20, 2008 6:31 pm youve raised some good points but my concern is how can so many builders,tradies and owner builders keep getting away with *** practises if its all meant to be done to australian standards and inspected and passed by a so called qualified building inspecter obviously the buck stops with the inspecter shouldnt they be capable of picking up the * work and demanding it be fixed before any certificates are issued Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 35Oct 20, 2008 9:28 pm Hi everyone,
I feel that this thread is very interesting and quite frustrating. I'm with Bingoshelly on this topic all the way!! As new OB's with no prior experience in building I found it frustrating to read all the negative comments posted by some...clearly everyone agrees that being an OB is a serious endeavour and that it requires a lot of time and effort. There is a high degree of risk involved and if you are not prepared to take it seriously then you will suffer the consequenses. I don't think that people in general (particularly if they are reading and contrinuting to this forum) are prepared to take the risk without proper research. So why the negativity?? Caution is one thing, but outright negativity is uncalled for. The way I see it is that each person is different and has different capabilities; I have a post grad degree in Project Management and my partner runs a business so we have a good understanding of what it takes to run a major project with considerable risk and reward. We have thoroughly researched our project, consulted with various trades and interviewed them several times prior to securing their services. We establish good rapport with trades and suppliers and those tradies who don't call back or we have to chase around get discarded pretty quickly, we move on to the next guy who is willing to have a chat and listen to us and provide us advice on lead times and materials required. If you are in a metro area as we are, tradies are a dime a dozen and as long as you reference check (and I make sure I call their business a few times to ask questions and see what kind of response I get) this gives an indication of their willingness to do your project. We went to see our chippie (who also happens to be a registered builder and that is his primary business) at his newly built home four times before we signed him up; at first he was going to build our whole house, but after a while we decided to OB and he was still willing to help with the frame and carpentry work! Our plumber and electrician call us every couple of weeks to see how we are going! Our window supplier was running a little behind with our order so they called to let us know and check that it wasn't going to be a major issue for us....etc etc To date, our build has gone well, we are on budget and within our timeframes. We have hit one small stumbling block at the moment which we are working through and we have two options that we can go with to move forward, nothing that will cost us too much or that will cause us too much dramas - Basically our boundary garage wall may be too high (just over 3m which is the max) we have to either apply for a dispensation through council or change our roof trusses and lower the height of the garage, we will find out tomorrow if our roof trusses have already been manufactured as we paid for them a couple of weeks ago, either way its not a major issue and the reason it occurred is that we are on waffle slab which sits higher than traditional slabs - Anyhow, with regards to the comment re not buying a house that was OB - have you seen some of the terrible ******* building practices that commonly occur by the project builders in this very forum!! I seriously think that you would consider buying an OB home before one that was built by a PB that thrives on cheap cheap cheap!!! (no offence to those who are using PB's - the fact you are closely following your builders and posting on this forum is an indication of your careful attention to detail!) KWOOD2, you say you are an OB yourself, and you have experience in the industry - I am trying to understand your motivation for being so negative and anti OB - can you please explain? Perhaps you can tell us a bit about your project and share your knowledge? After all, thats the whole point of this forum isn't it!! I could go on and on, but I feel I have written enough for now!! I will finish my post by letting you all know, in case you haven't seen my previous posts, we looked at many many builders for months and months before deciding to go OB, it was not a decision we took lightly, but we are so glad we are on this adventure!! Cheers Ruth Ruth -Bought house in Melbourne inner burbs, knocked it down & now...we are owner builders! Completed OB project and moved in to our new home with our new baby in May 2009! Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 36Oct 20, 2008 9:30 pm I would also like to add one more thing - we have not paid any more for materials because we are OB's - we know this because to date our chippie who is also our builder has confirmed our prices are good!! Ruth -Bought house in Melbourne inner burbs, knocked it down & now...we are owner builders! Completed OB project and moved in to our new home with our new baby in May 2009! Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 37Oct 20, 2008 9:53 pm bingoshelley youve raised some good points but my concern is how can so many builders,tradies and owner builders keep getting away with *** practises if its all meant to be done to australian standards and inspected and passed by a so called qualified building inspecter obviously the buck stops with the inspecter shouldnt they be capable of picking up the * work and demanding it be fixed before any certificates are issued I guess it depends on what exactly you define as being '*'. There are a lot of grey areas with respect to what actually is 'acceptable' and what is not. Just because you feel that something may not be up to your standards doesn't mean that it's not acceptable to most builders or the BCA (unless it's bloody obvious!). The thing is, builders (should) in their experience pick up on issues as they happen and identify any discepancies on site or on plans and retify accordingly. Most OB's will struggle to identify that an issue even exists - this is when some of the problems begin. Architects and building designers are experts at making things look good on paper but it's not always practical and in some cases...it may not even be possible. It's the builders expertise that decipher whether it's possible, overcome and/or find alternative building solutions to the many hurdles along the way! Have you had a bad experience or know of many people that have? Of course there are builders, trademen and OB's out there that are better than others and sometimes to those who are not in the know 'it's the luck of the draw' but such is life.... Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 38Oct 20, 2008 10:50 pm rerob1 KWOOD2, you say you are an OB yourself, and you have experience in the industry - I am trying to understand your motivation for being so negative and anti OB - can you please explain? Perhaps you can tell us a bit about your project and share your knowledge? After all, thats the whole point of this forum isn't it!! I am not going out of my way to be negative but I might be slightly over-cautious - it's so easy to get burnt. I also wonder why i'm wasting 4 years of my life studying a Construction degree when backyarders are attempting to undertake similar tasks. I would have thought that some of my posts would have provided you some insight as to why I have come such a conclusion. ...and, where have I not shown my knowledge? Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 39Oct 20, 2008 11:01 pm thanks ruth its fine to say how hard things are but to tell people to forget about it just aint right.we all learn from our mistakes no matter what position we take in life.i also have found the tradies very helpful and more then willing to tell me what they require before they attend the job site.yes i will make mistakes but i have been in high end display homes in millpark victoria where the actual pillars holding the stairs were twisted the plastering was cracked the carpet in the hallway lead down to a sunken tiled dining area which you could see the concrete slab exposed the bathroom had tiles not lined up and when you pressed on the bathtub it moved.now this house was being built for 395000 as i said top end being i have a big mouth i took the sales rep around and showed them the faults id found their response was yes we dont use those builders anymore.this is the reason im owner building i do intend to sell in 6 mths time but whoever buys it will have an over engineered well built home designed to a finish they will not be able to fault right down to the tiling.yes it will cost me and i may only save 10-20% on a builders price but believe me it will be built to perfection and sold at a great price and should any problems occur the new owners will have my contact details and not have to go to court to hunt me down.i will stand 110% behind what we have built and we will make a good profit.
one thing i dont understand is people saying you have to factor in your time as a monetary value.if we make 100,000 on this project and it takes 4 yrs who caresabout our time id like to know who works 4 yrs and saves 100,000. Re: Owner Builder cheaper than Builder 40Oct 20, 2008 11:19 pm KWOOD2 rerob1 KWOOD2, you say you are an OB yourself, and you have experience in the industry - I am trying to understand your motivation for being so negative and anti OB - can you please explain? Perhaps you can tell us a bit about your project and share your knowledge? After all, thats the whole point of this forum isn't it!! I am not going out of my way to be negative but I might be slightly over-cautious - it's so easy to get burnt. I also wonder why i'm wasting 4 years of my life studying a Construction degree when backyarders are attempting to undertake similar tasks. I would have thought that some of my posts would have provided you some insight as to why I have come such a conclusion. Quote: kwood now i understand why you are so upset and like i thought you are studying to become a builder so are ** off ,as you said (any backyarders) can build a house. i actually dont blame you but your venting at the wrong people its the building authority you should be ** of at not obs. but if you look at most trades normal people with no experience can defend themselves in court,can sell herbal remedies and other medical practises about the only thing i can see that you cant do without a liscence is plumbing and electrical,however you can actually do these too if its not a new house. so i guess it just means whoevers got the balls to tackle a job then so be it.keep in mind as obs we can only build once every 3 years where as with your degree you can build as often as you like with great expense to the consumer so i guess your going to school to get a liscence to print money. ...and, where have I not shown my knowledge? Hi VK, I am now retired however I have stood beside over 300 owner builders in the past 18 years that have successfully built their own homes. First of all a building… 10 22562 Hi all. Anyone know when the $11,000 limit was set in legislation for renovations in QLD? Ive been renovating for 5 years now and this was the limit back then. As we know,… 0 4237 |