Browse Forums Eco Living 1 Sep 11, 2008 1:34 pm This is my rant to no-one in particular....... but I'm tipping I speak for a few people.
There's a couple of really simple reason why people don't bother to build efficient houses. And it's not because of price which is what most people think.... Most people don't want to go back to uni and obtain a four year degree in physics to pick which friggin' windows to have. No matter what option you choose... it's not enough. Double glazed? Sure. Wrong frames so what's the point? It doesn't matter what you do..... it's still not efficient enough.... Grey water system?.... no-one will tell you (including the stupid people who sell the systems) exactly how your plumbing needs to be set up during the build...... I've been trying to do the right thing, I really have been, and it's costing an arm and a leg..... But I'm done. I'll be deleting most of the eco options from the build.... No one knows what they're doing, no-one, including the authorities set up to help, have any idea how to help the consumer who hasn't got masses of technical knowledge. I've got better things to do than get a uni degree just to read half these bloody tables to make a decision..... I'll build a thermally inefficient piece of crap house and pay through the nose for my heating and coooling... at least it's a decision I understand. I'll build again when the information to build efficiently is available in simple terms to the lay man. I'm not an idiot but I'm lost... I've got a life and I'm not prepared to sacrifice every ounce of energy and time I have in order to get the right bloody window. You want me to be eco? Fine but don't make me sell my soul, bankrupt myself and constantly be made to feel intellectually inadequate just because I need to ask questions. I'm sick of being made to feel like an idiot because I haven't got a science degree. I WANT SIMPLE TO READ, READILY AVAILABLE INFORMATION AND ADVICE. Then I'll be on board, until then, the eco build movement has lost me. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 2Sep 11, 2008 2:15 pm I hear you on the complex-ness of some decisions Joles, but don't give up! Being some more efficient is better than not being efficient at all, even if it means you aren't perfectly efficient.
You may have already looked here, but http://www.yourhome.gov.au/ is a really good place for easy-to-understand (free!) advice on what things to focus on. I don't know if this will make you feel better, or worse, but I do have a science degree, and I work as a consultant advising commercial buildings on how to be sustainable and efficient, and I'm still not 100% sure I'm making all the best decisions in my house. My view is that you can only make the best decisions you can, with the knowledge you have, and within your budget. We can't get double glazed windows with thermally broken or non-aluminium frames, but we're going for the best we can from the supplier we have to use and within our budget. Don't worry about things not being 'enough'- if you've done the best you can then that's OK Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 3Sep 11, 2008 2:18 pm I'm scared...remind me never to cross you jo!! Now if I was like my father, I'd say something like....."I'm sensing a lot of anger there" or "Sooo, you're feeling really angry and frustrated" But I won't On a serious note though, I am sorry that you have found the whole thing so frustrating. You know though, something is better than nothing, so for example even if the frames for the double glazed windows aren't the best, they are still better than single glazed windows. I suppose it's a bit like no insulation vs R1 vs R2. BUT it is your money and you have to decide where to spend it. 'chelle We have a hand-over date...15/10...but I won't hold my breath! http://people-in-glass-houses.blogspot.com/ Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 4Sep 11, 2008 3:17 pm Yep 'chelle you were feeling a bit of anger there.
I find a vent is far healthier than bottling it up... anger will release itself one way or another, at least I was... sort of rational! I'm just fed up with the lack of information.....even from the "experts" and the amount of time and energy it sucks out of me..... the energy I've expended on this could have heated my house for the next decade! I just think it's important for people to realise that money isn't the only obstacle to the implementation of a lot of these ideas..... The whole "it's not enough" vibe... that gets me.... in a lot of discussions with "experts" there's this undercurrent of guilt that what you're doing isn't enough and you should be doing more..... I'm really interested to know if other people feel this way? I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick eco houses 5Sep 11, 2008 3:18 pm Tend to agree with you Joles, but all you can do is your best.
You have researched topics to make your house more efficient and that itself has to be congratulated. Some people do not even get that far. Go with the best advice you have at the time and have no regrets,also make sure you get along to the eco house day's this weekend. You just might be inspired and lift your spirit's for the better. Best of luck Cheers Michael He wants a dream home theatre - she wants a dream kitchen! Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 6Sep 11, 2008 8:55 pm I know exactly what Joles's talking about. I've spent 4 months now researching quite intensively how to build an reasonably eco house. I'm beginning to have ideas of what's the best way, but no real certainity about my choices. I'm only sure that I'll have to pay at least 15% more to have them implemented and not quite sure that I'll be able to afford that.
What I've found out is: The government produced info is vague on technical details and fragmented. The architects are a bit more specific, but still vague and often say what the clients want to hear, not what they need to hear. The suppliers are spruiking their own products and rubbishing all others, are narrowly specialised and have little expertise or knowledge beyond their own backyard. The major suppliers/producers don't bother replying to the technical inquiries from the small fry. The builders and contractors push for what's best for them and that's "good 'ole (and crude) ways". There's no single public domain database with easy to understand and well crossreferenced advice. My friends built a project house recently. They went for the currently fashionable dark (almost black) roof tiles. Nobody told them that this'll raise the ambient temperature around their place by 5 - 10 degs. They're frying in summer, so they've installed a whopper of an aircon system. Now they whinge about paying $300+ bills from Nov to March. An this goes on and on. Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 7Sep 11, 2008 11:11 pm Isn't that the truth!
When you want to make sure you do things right - especially with something you don't know much about - be it eco design or even something like a computer printer these days it takes bucketloads of online research. The other way is to take someone elses word and just pay out for whatever the "salesmen" recommend - which of course is not always in your best interest. That "your home' is a good read though. Maybe one day the industry will get to a level where you can choose proven eco options for your home as part of the package - extra cost or not! I hope you work something out with your house - I know how easy it is to get frustrated and wish that you had never even started building - the "why bother" line of thought! Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 8Sep 12, 2008 4:21 pm Maybe we should write to the Federal Minister of the Environment, or perhaps GetUp! demanding/requesting setting up a public domain Information and Advice database for environmentally councious building ?? It would cost relatively little and has a big potential for helping curb emissions and waste. I'm going to write to GetUp! I invite all interested to chip in!
Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 10Sep 12, 2008 4:33 pm That sounds like a plan Chris..... I think something needs to be done... people generally want to do the right thing... but it's so complicated.
What about suggestions/price guide/regions tables.... For example: If you live in Melb and have $2000 to spend this should be your priority... If you live in Melb and have $5000 to spend...... and so forth in levels..... Figuring out what to do is half the battle as well. I don't have unlimited funds and nobody had the info on how to prioritise..... Is grey water more important than a rainwater tank? Is external shading more important than increasing the insulation? I'm sure the priorities are different in different regions... just an easy how to guide. The tank people will tell you "buy a tank" and so on. It's just made too hard for the average person. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 11Sep 12, 2008 4:34 pm House-To-Be I think Jo should run for PM Are you insane? They haven't got enough "beeps" for my maiden speech in parliament! I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 12Sep 12, 2008 6:46 pm Quote: That sounds like a plan Chris..... I think something needs to be done... people generally want to do the right thing... but it's so complicated. What about suggestions/price guide/regions tables.... For example: If you live in Melb and have $2000 to spend this should be your priority... If you live in Melb and have $5000 to spend...... This is a really good idea! It would be a little tricky as its a bit subjective as to what's more important, and would vary from region to region, but definitely something to think about. Want me to have a Joles-specific go for you? - what stage is your design? There's no point telling you to do reverse brick veneer, cement block or double brick if your already locked in (or in love with the style of) regular brick veneer. - is saving water very important to you as a high priority? Personally I see this as a lower priority than energy efficiency, as many of the water supply issues are as a result of global warming and I prefer to target the cause than the affect. Others may disagree! Here's what we have decided to go for, in case it helps: - North facing living areas (no cost). Maximised northern glazing, minimised other glazing while not having a windowless house (no cost)! - Double glazing ($3k). We do not have the option of going for uPVC or thermally broken frames with our supplier, so have 'thermally improved' aluminium frames (standard item). - Upgraded gas ducted heating to 5 Star unit with zoning and insulated ducting ($4k). We are hoping that the solar orientation will mean we don't need too much heating and couldn't quite justify the cost of in-slab hydronic heating. We may later consider retro-fitting on-wall hydronic. - Water tank (estate requirement, $1000). - Evacuated tube solar hot water with isolated electric booster (5k). - Tiling to northern living areas rather than carpet for thermal mass (I don't think this is a cost difference?) - No down lights as they use a lot of energy and put holes in the insulation (saving of $1500, although we haven't purchased replacement light fittings yet). - Insulation upgrade to R4 in ceiling ($300) - Slab edge insulation (not sure of cost) We did the cheap-and-easy's as a priority: upgrade insulation, get the design right to start with (if it isn't past that stage?), tile the northern areas, leave out the downlights. Next the hard-and-expensive-to-retrofit's: the double glazing, just as good as we can in our budget. Then we looked at the expensive items: heating options and solar hot water. Then, look at a rain water tank, HOWEVER, if you get them to place the piping and downpipes as though you were doing the rainwater tank, it'd be really easy to add one later without much messing around. This is all just my opinion, and is how I would prioritise, you may have different priorities Basically though, cheap-and-easy first, then the things that can't be retro-fitted. Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 13Sep 12, 2008 9:01 pm Great idea archaeobabe and Joles. Wouldn't it be nice to have a team of architects, scientists, producers and builders putting their heads together and coming up with a "A Compleat Guide for an Environmentally Concious Home Buyer", containing advice, producers/suppliers together with impartial evaluation (in say stars) of their products and pricing (by location) of various steps, from the most cost effective to the most outcome effective. Also warnings and gotchas. All that in the public domain, well cross-referenced, easy to use database.......
Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 14Sep 12, 2008 9:54 pm I take no credit for the idea! All Joles' idea, I just think it's a good idea and worth adding to Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 15Sep 12, 2008 10:39 pm Joles,
You've hit the nail on the head. Most people want to build an energy efficient house, but when you're building there are so many decisions to make the last thing you need is complications about how to make your house energy efficient. As others have said, look at www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/index.html . It is the best single book (yes you can buy it for about $50 - or free online) in the world on building environmentally friendly houses. It covers everything and it does it well. I've been researching energy efficient houses for years and if it all gets too much, don't give up, just ask me. I'd be happy to help. Cheers, Casa Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 16Sep 12, 2008 11:00 pm casa leave the fullstop off the end or the link doesn't work.
http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/index.html Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 18Sep 12, 2008 11:14 pm Joles - I reckon the reason it is all so frustrating is the volume builders just don;t want to change -too hard basket and they also see that those buyers who are eco thinking, are able to pay a bit more so they are capitalising on that fact.
As archaeobabe said - do what you can and is important to you, do now what would be difficult to retro fit, etc but don't go by the "Best solution" as being what you MUST do. Far from it. I know of and ëco" house that does NOT use thermally broken alu windows - yes they are double glazed - but due to the rest of the house design - it is not cold in winter as the alu frames are a minor loss in terms of temperature - compared to the thermal gain from large northern windows and a large concrete slab that the sun lands on. So it is all to be kept in context. IMO - The volume builders are capitilising on a topical subject - but in reality they do not really know what is best for you to install.' Steve Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 19Sep 12, 2008 11:23 pm Steve,
You seem to level the blame at volume builders .... It's not only the volume builder's that are the problem... that's not the point of my post. It's the experts, it's the way the information is presented, it's the way there is no centralised information. This isn't a problem that is confined to volume builders so it's actually unfair to label it as their problem. It's not. The movement itself is flawed at the most fundamental level- how to make the knowledge about what is required easily accessible and understandable. Accessibility and easy to understand information. Any first year marketing student can tell you that no product/s will work in the market place without these factors. That is nothing to do with volume builders. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: RANT: Why we're not eco..... 20Sep 12, 2008 11:29 pm But Jo if the building industry in general (not just the volume bulders) took on more of this themselves, then we wouldn't have to try to work it all out ourselves.
When you build, you don't need to research plumbing or carpentry, you trust that the builder knows what they are doing. We need to get to the stage where this sort of thing is the norm not something you have to research, but until then it is very confusing at times Edit: BTW Steve that is good to know about the friend with double glazing, We're not sure what sort of double glazing we will be able to afford yet and I was worried that our house wouldn't "work" unless we had the "very best" 'chelle We have a hand-over date...15/10...but I won't hold my breath! http://people-in-glass-houses.blogspot.com/ 6 11469 That sucks! Hope it all works out. Good to move away from steel anyway for all your reasons, but it's also thermally poor. 16 17724 Hi All, I just wanted to close this topic out with an update. So we ended up agreeing to a number with the insurance company, and after an extensive amount of hand… 8 23348 |