Browse Forums Eco Living Page 1 of 1 19 replies Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member 1 Jul 06, 2014 6:43 pm I recently purchased a house, knowing it was in need of renovation, so a budget was done. Unfortunately, after moving in and the power was connected, other defects have become rather obvious. The budget was tight before, and due to other unexpected costs, has become tighter. The last found issues are now the number one priority though, as the house relies on Tankwater. The issues start at the gutter and extend to the taps! I’ve read other threads, forums and magazines and have tried to incorporate elements into the project, but am quite likely to have missed critical components, or have not interpreted the other ideas properly. I’m an amateur in this line, and still am befuddled by some terminologies. This amidst the planning and other aspects of the rest of the project. A start to finish list of what I think is wrong and what might be needed. Performance has priority over aesthetics, but where possible I need to retain some parts of the current 90mm PVC system that would be costly to replace, eg underground pipes. 1 Roof Rainwater capture The 70m of gutter must be fully replaced, downpipes repaired, new dps added. Much of this winters rain is going to ground, not to the tank. Roof area, (255 sq m) allowing for slope is approx. 285 sq m – House A garage of 6 x 8.5 may also be connected to the tank. Effective area, 56 sq m The climate data is from the closest station (7km away) ( now closed ) Mean Rainfall 1951-2002 1392mm J 76 F 62 M 83 A 104 M 132 J 147 J 141 A 148 S 141 O 120 N 120 D 107 IFD= 5% 5 minute =10.4 per hour = 124.8 average intensity in mm/minute ARI of 5 minutes =2.08 IFD per hour 124.8 With a peak in August, I hope to get the guttering in prior. Several calculators have indicated 5 downpipes, but the area is 57 sq m, not the 55 mandated. Gutter Profiles Initially I’d thought of Flatback or Smoothline, the HalfRound with a vertical back. This was mostly as they were described as self cleaning , maximum flow etc. Each of 3 plumbers who’ve come to quote did not wish to install this type. Reasons given, much more difficult to install, costly on site fabrication of pops etc, and the internal clips catch and keep a lot of the leaves. Convinced that if I specified this profile I would be given quite costly quotes by the only 3 plumbers in the area, I looked for other options. Nominally, I have picked a Fielders D 125 gutter, if only to begin a discussion. Effective Area of nearly 7000mm2 seems adequate using their calculator. It is slightly higher at the front, but the overflow will be handled by several Supa Gutter Pumper units. Their diverted water may go to an “ orphan “ tank in the SW corner, once it can be established where it’s output goes. tbc . I reviewed the roofing and current downpipe locations, and made a basic attempt to revise and equalize the area captured per downpipe. I don’t know if this is actually practical. Only one additional Downpipe, and 11m ground pipe from the SW to the NW corner would be required, unless there are other options. 2 existing downpipes require repair. As this is a BushFire area, I will be installing 2mm Mesh as per AS3959-2009, though as it was built prior to regs, it is not mandatory. Near future plans include a garage and extra shed to the East. These will add 105 sq m, and being skillion, only 15m guttering on the North. In discussing with the 3 plumbers, each were happy to put new for old, but without increasing the number of downpipes. But having read so much on the topic, I have attempted some planning to match the required sq metre to downpipe recommendations. These are shown in the mud map. For the house this would seem to only require 1 extra at the S-W corner. But it would need 2 fall lines on the North. My layout might be impractical or NQR, and is shown as a concept. I’m wondering if it would be better to just install several Supa GutterPumper units in strategic locations, then pipe the overflow to feed the FG Tank? This would be at a lower level , eg 100mm or so to avoid disturbing the sediment bottom layer. The issue ahead, if this or another layout is practical, is in how to best deal with the plumber. Does he have the final say, given he must sign off on the install? Or indeed the situation of the professional being “overruled” by a client?? As noted, only 3 in the area. 2 Pipes to tanks Along the verandah the pipe drops 40mm over 15m. Then it would seem to go down vertically, if so this would be a drop of about 1200mm. Test holes haven’t located where the pipes run, so the mapped path is a close guess, based on the angle they enter the tank. I have assumed they originally went directly to the old concrete tank, and were joined and angled across to the replacement Fibreglass Tank. The path of the second pipe is unknown, but I believe it may service the garage and the downpipe at the N-W. 3 Tanks Concrete 6.2m * 2 = 56kl cracked (earthquake) seepage after repairs 30% level (valve to FG ) Fibreglass 4m * 2m = 25kl 50% full approx.. (house supply) Poly 10kl empty – no riser feed. Presumed to be fed from pump at dam for garden use. The house had been rented out, then was vacant for quite a long time. The filter on the inspection hatch had been removed and was lyi-ng on the tank top. Repairing a WC problem, the plumber noted that the water had far too many solids, indicating too much got in while the filter was off. Access to the Concrete and FG tanks is a bit hazardous due to the slope, vegetation, rotted timber “ retaining “ members and bits of discarded barbed and other wire. An OHS dream. The vegetation has been sprayed a number of times and will be cut back shortly. The 2 pipes from the house exit the ground at an angle of 5º. They are exposed for about 5 metres horizontally before going up a Vertical Riser of approx. 700mm. They become nearly horizontal, around 2º for a short run to the inlet 90º bend. Support is via a discarded metal tube frame and rope. The exposed 5 metre length looks to be an easy place to install a Sediment Filter. I have most of the parts to do so, but also several queries. 1 2 individual filters or combine into one ? 2 Length of 90mm PVC to collect the sediment ? 3 Length of 40mm on the purge side? I am very likely to have overlooked the answers in already published docs. The FG tank supply to the Pump and Pressure Tank is virtually at the base of the tank. If at 0º, the 2 * 90mm pipes enter about 100º . a 400mm inspection hatch is on the opposite side of the tank. There is an open area around the pipes. A sheet has been bought to cut an insert pipes to provide a better seal. These will be silicone sealed to the sheet, and the sheet screwed to the tank top, also silicone sealed. Should there be an extension onto the 90º bends? In line Mossie Filters, the type that can be slipped out of the housing, may be installed on the horizontal just prior to the final 90º bend into the tank. Is this a good position? It would seem easier that at the very last point, which would mean removal of the sheet and possible PVC cracking, as already experienced!! Overflow Pipe is only 300mm, but flows out to downhill paddocks and 2 dams. Much of the area at the base of the tanks is wet and soggy, but hard to determine which tanks are responsible. Possible improvements It seems that there a vast range of products and inventions to deal with various water related issues. There are a number of possibilities that I’d like to consider, and put up for consideration, but I’m open to comments and indeed any other options to improve the system overall. Overflow protection. Several Supa GutterPumper units would seem to be an option to overcome the issue with plumbers and downpipes. First Flush diverter As all downpipes are to feed the tanks, is it necessary to have a FFD on each downpipe, or is there a method to do that after they have joined in the trunk pipes? Concrete Tank– various methods are advertised, chemicals or bladders. If further earthquakes occurred, more problems may return, so a limit on repair costs.I would hope to make minimal repairs, such that enough H2O was available for fire fighting needs. Fibreglass Tank I’ve priced having the tank cleaned, in which case half the water (1/4 tank) would be lost. The cost of also having say, 10kl delivered as well as cleaning could pay for ½ of a new tank. Sediment Clean FG Tank There’s an RH product that indicates it will scour and clean sediment, similar to a TankVac, but a small area only, but considerably cheaper, as well as easier to install on what may become just a Settling Tank. Filtration. Several suggestions have been made regarding filters, and advice as the best option is really needed. A main, larger particle sized, filter at the tank, prior to the pump, with one undersink filter for potable water inside. Or a whole of house filter. No need for filtering chlorine, as there is none. Whole of house filter seems notionally better, in that water in bathrooms could be used for drinking if required. Settling Tank – New main tank. This option would permit a new “ potable water “ designed metal tank, so water could be supplied from the FG tank, possibly filtered during transfer. A TankVac could be installed at the outset, and a WaterNymph to collect from the “premium zone”. Location could be near the other tanks, but the ground level at that point would be about 1 metre higher than the base of the FG Tank. Pump and piping could be relocated as well. The water could be fed in at the lower level, so no need for an opening at the top, save for overflow, which could be diverted to the old concrete tank. Overflow from the FG Tank could also be diverted to the concrete Tank. The choice of a squat or tall tank also needs to be worked out, given it’s location. It could be excavated to match the base height of the 2 other tanks. The above are just ideas, probably contain incorrect info, and are open to correction, re-direction etc. photos and layout to follow when I rediscover how post photo bucket files. can't see them in preview mode. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 2Jul 06, 2014 6:49 pm photos and layout on Dropbox, until I refresh on how to insert into a post Edit 7/7 rediscovered adding photos. [img]NOSPACESinURLbetweenbrackets[/img] https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5ynx74d0c543rju/AABiuV3iv1rauJUPUO42_JMFa/rrr Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Oct 2009 1,314 VIC Gold Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 3Jul 08, 2014 1:11 pm We have Ace Roundline guttering. The builder swapped this for Stratco Smoothline when he did our quote but then changed it back again with the designer's permission (without asking us) so I presume he must have discovered that Ace Roundline was cheaper to install. They are pretty big gutters. That is the extent of my knowledge! Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,268 VIC Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 4Jul 08, 2014 3:35 pm Well, there's a fair bit there but it's fairly straight forward. The information is appreciated, particularly the IFD info and the month by month average rainfall pattern. I will reply by breaking things up rather than replying to everything all at once and having information all over the place. Have you worked out how much water you actually need to collect? This is the starting point. The current system is not good...exposed entry points to the house tank and everything off the roof going into it. I would hate to see the bottom of the tank. You need to vacuum clean all tanks and mosquito proof all access points. It's more than just mosquitoes that can get into the current house tank at the moment. It would take a bit of money to bring everything up to scratch. I think that if you are getting another tank anyway, you should have it at the house and set the system up properly with leaf diverters, first flush units, a properly positioned pump draw outlet and its own pump etc. This would be a far better use of your finances than messing around with what's there at the moment. You could harvest 3 downpipes, two current ones plus a new one fitted at the south west side. This should/would give you plenty of water for the house although I can't give an accurate figure because I don't know where the gutter's high points are but you would need a new high point half way along the south side. For now, I am estimating about 130 sq m (roof plan area. Allowing for a yield of 85% and rounding off your annual rainfall at 1,400 mm per annum, you would harvest 154,400 litres per annum in an average year. This would provide a daily household use of 423 litres per day. I don't know whether you would be eligible for a government water tank rebate but an inquiry to the Dept of Living Victoria would be worthwhile. http://www.depi.vic.gov.au/water/saving ... te-program Given that leaf diverters and first flush kits are an added expense (plus diverting the downpipes), I am going to suggest that you use the Supadivertas that you were planning on using at the last property that you were planning to build on. As you know, the Supadiverta is a product that I invented and it has an inbuilt 750 micron leaf diverter plus its own optional first flush kit. It also has continuous sediment extraction throughout the entire rain event of any material that passes through the filter and settles on the reservoir floor. Using these will provide cleaner water and eliminate the wet system vertical riser that you would otherwise have. You can also fit a sediment trap to capture any bed load. The other advantage is that you can eliminate the need to fit a tank overflow if you height adjust the Supadivertas on the downpipes. With the guttering, it is amazing that the 3 plumbers would all fit new gutters "as is" given the non compliance. Nevertheless, you have straight lengths of guttering and this makes the system more efficient. Did they know that you were fitting mesh when they spoke about leaves fouling on the gutter's inner clips? The 255 sq m roof plan area only translates to a 285 sq m roof slope factored area if the slope is 13/14 degrees. The 7,000 sq m gutter would also need 100 mm round downpipes for compliance but you will need to retain the current 90 mm round PVC downpipes (which is what I assume that you have). You could simply fit a 125 quad gutter or similar and keep the 90 mm downpipes and hang the compliance. If you fit Gutter Pumpers to the high points, you would be ok during a 1:20 IFD but you would only need one fitted to the mid point along the south side in any case. You cannot run the Gutter Pumper's 20 mm pressure pipe into a low inlet because the water is not filtered. Given that it would only be pumping excess water during a storm, there wouldn't be any need to anyway, you could just discharge the water to the nearest downpipe as their flow paths would remain unchanged if you used Supadivertas. Did you know that the Gutter Pumper is also one of my designs? tezzab Sediment Clean FG Tank There’s an RH product that indicates it will scour and clean sediment, similar to a TankVac, but a small area only, but considerably cheaper, as well as easier to install on what may become just a Settling Tank. I will describe both products. http://www.greenboss.com.au/tank-vacuum-poly The "Auto Tank Vacuum System" extends a 90 mm PVC overflow pipe to the bottom of the tank so that water is drawn from the anaerobic zone, a good idea. The bottom of the pipe is fitted with a serrated edge so that water flowing into the pipe is restricted. This gives the inflowing water a slight vacuuming effect to the immediate area during heavy rain. Transferring sediment up a vertical pipe is dependent on velocity. 90 mm PVC stormwater pipe has an internal diameter of 86.2 mm, giving an internal volume of 5.84 litres per metre. Until the tank overflows, the water level in the pipe rises at the same rate as the level in the tank. Now imagine if there was a storm, the tank was overflowing and water was discharging at a massive 175 litres per minute, the equivalent of harvesting 87.5 sq m of roof receiving 2 mm of rain per minute! This is a velocity of .5 metres (2.92 litres) per second up the 90 mm PVC pipe, less than the minimum recognised requirement of .7 metres per second for horizontal pipe...but fine sediment would be transferred. http://tank-vac.com/ This uses a stronger 80 mm DWV overflow pipe that connects to smaller 'holed' pipes spread across the floor. The outside overflow pipe is automatically (delay) primed and once primed, the water is vacuumed into the overflow pipe through the smaller holes in the smaller pipes at high velocity. TankVac is a syphonic system that vacuums the floor and drains at 9 litres per second. TankVac is the ultimate but if you don't have one, then fitting the other system is worthwhile but they are worlds apart. I will progress onto the rest once you digest this opening salvo. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 5Jul 08, 2014 6:28 pm I’m happy that you’ve seen a straightforward strategy. The sheer number of issues was making it hard to know where to commence, except prioritising guttering. Water collection. This need not be great, averaging 1-2 living daily, with 4 as an occasional maximum. Bar a Xmas peak of 38, but that will place more pressure on the rear end of the system!! Another topic altogether, as 3 plumbers have not yet found traces of a “system”. I’d not even thought laterally enough to consider placing a new tank at house level, just siting it with the others and turning the FG tank into a settling tank. High sides of gutters. As all guttering is to be replaced, can the high sides be re-designed and specified ? Only 2 of the existing 90mm downpipes are actually in working condition, so could be modified to differing heights. If a new Downpipe is to be added to the S-W corner, it will also need underground pipe to meet those at the N-W corner. I’d be happy to specify these as 100mm DWV if that improved the overall system. The N-W corner is also is need of repair, so I would consider that for 100 DWV also. I would hope there are Reducers from 100 DWV to 90 SWD. The next closest Downpipe is only several metres away, and if it helps the overall system, that too could be 100 DWV. By process of elimination, it seems that the N-W joins with the Garage downpipes to feed the FG tank via one 90mm pipe. The next one on the East could easily be modified to join the same pipe. That would leave the remainder as 90mm, and these all seem to feed the other 90mm pipe. These 3 new “100 DWV” pipes would then be fitted as you suggested with SupaDiverta First Flush Devices. I have looked at several FFDs, and am convinced that the product you’ve invented does offer a simple and efficient method of dealing with several issues, combined with the filtering aspects as well. Take off from the SuperDivertas would feed a low inlet on the new tank. Can I assume that this would be sufficient, and that the 2nd of the current PVC pipes can be left to feed the existing FG tank, to become a source for garden and fire fighting purposes, some via the concrete tank? The SupaDiverta outlets would meet in a 40mm PVC pipe then run to a low inlet on the Tank. This is clearly explained on the SupaDiverta website. Fitting a Supa Gutter Pumper will be incorporated as you’ve suggested on the mid South side. By mid, can I take you meant at the point where the two high points meet, not midway along the half running downhill? Sorry for the naivety.. I’ve seen that the Supa Gutter Pumper comes from the same inventor, and await other future developments, maybe in time for this installation ??? The pricing of both seems very reasonable. Tank Size and Placement. Looking at the mud map, the only position for a new tank is in the back yard area. This is sloping, but there is a base already where a 10kl FG tank is currently. This is higher than the house level, around 130mm above path level. Access.. likely not enough between garage and house, so would need an understanding neighbour to move sheep and turn off the electric fence. The current tank is some 25 metres from the S-W corner. Pump location. Would this be needed at the tank itself, or closer to the house. If the latter, underground power would need to be trenched in at the same time as the supply and outlet pipes. A position much closer to the house if certainly possible, and would just require excavation, would also save on trenching and materials for pipes and an electrician. Path to underneath of guttering is 2300mm. Depending on Tank capacity and dimensions excavation can be done to accommodate Tall or Squat Tanks. Yet another area where advice is sought… I’ve not found arguments as to which type is better, or if it depends on the individual site and siting. Rebate.. I have been there, read that, and can only say I will be very trying.... Vacuuming Tanks. As your single tank proposal removes the current FG Tank from the supply chain, I see no need for the “Auto Tank Vacuum System”, which was intended as a pre-cleaning item ahead of a filter if this FG Tank became a Settling Tank to feed the new one. That now seems superfluous, and can be discarded. However, with a new tank it looks like the ideal time to install the “real” Tank Vac, as well as a Water Nymph or WaterBoy to extract the best quality water. A larger access hole can then be installed at order time, rather than retrofitted. If there are no contrary issues in regard to the Guttering I have selected, eg 125mm D type, I might now order same to ensure delivery on time, and the good price I got. As many others have already experienced I’m very appreciative of your well-considered analysis. You’ve broken it all down to simple chunks and made it easier for a novice to understand. I can hopefully put all your suggestions into practice without too many errors. I think I digested, and hope my response shows some sense that I may have done so. Reply Reply Like Share More Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,268 VIC Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 7Jul 09, 2014 2:27 pm I never recommend using the thin walled (nominal) 90 mm PVC stormwater pipe because the 100 mm PVC DWV pipe is much stronger but you have the 90 mm pipes already there and they are still going ok. It is much easier (and cheaper) if you leave it as is. If you use Supadivertas, the sub surface pipes are taken out of the equation anyway as far as diverting the rainwater to the new tank goes. You should also leave the downpipes as 90 mm PVC, your straight lengths of gutter are efficient and fitting an extra downpipe on the NW corner will improve the drainage. The new guttering just needs to be correctly sloped to best serve this and having a Gutter Pumper on the south wall's high point will handle excess water depth during heavy rain. The pressure pipe plumbed to a new tank from the Supadivertas (if applicable) for your roof harvest area and situation would be class 9 50 mm. The other horizontal pipes (connecting to a 50 mm tee) would probably be a combination of class 9 25 mm and 40 mm. 50 mm class 9 pressure pipe has an internal diameter of 55.2 mm. 25 mm and 40 mm class 9 have internal diameters of 30.5 mm and 44.1 mm. With a 1 metre head and 30 metres of friction loss, a class 9 50 mm pressure pipe will flow at 196 lpm. I can't see the topography around the house but I wasn't thinking of a new 22,000 L tank. If you look at the Tankulator charts, you will see that the water level rarely falls to 15,000 L. My thoughts are that seeing as how you are looking at a new tank anyway (which I think is a good idea), you should... a) Have the new tank closer to the house for harvesting and pumping efficiency. b) Have something like a 5,000 litre tank. This will be cheaper and easier to site. This size (poly) tank is often cheaper than a smaller size. If you want a steel tank, Gippsland Tanks (Warragul) make quality tanks and I think that you can deal direct. c) You need to do a few things to the fiberglass (FG) tank, for example, possibly making (if possible) a larger meshed inlet (for internal access) at the top, modifications to the infeed pipes and cleaning the bottom. Once this was done, you would then have a settling tank (as planned) to draw water from to top up the new 5,000 L tank whenever needed. You need to work out your onsite fire fighting storage (FFS) needs etc and this will include the required CFA access point if the FFS is mandated. You might need a liner for the concrete tanks but I don't have experience with concrete tanks. A quick phone call to someone or a Google search about repairs should be beneficial. At the moment, the guttering is the priority and the simpler this is , the better. You could also look at the Fielders WaterGate zinc gutter mesh. This suits the 125 guttering and it is available in the Bunnings gardening section. It comes in 8 x 1.25 m lengths in a 10 m pack for about $40. The holes are 5 mm though. http://www.fielders.com.au/aspx/Watergate.aspx http://www.fielders.com.au/pdf/FIEL_285 ... -s_P22.pdf http://www.fielders.com.au/pdf/Specifin ... erGate.pdf 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 8Jul 12, 2014 5:53 pm Many thanks SaveH2O for the detailed insights and recommendations. There’s quite a lot that I’ve tried to digest, but you’ve also raised more areas where I’m definitely found wanting. I did look at the suggestions in putting together another plan, though for the balancing of budgets, may not have incorporated all. This list is from gutter to tap… as the guttering is locked in to an order. 1. 3 downpipes – fit Supadiverta s x 3 2. Pressure pipe system to feed low inlet = laid under along with new PVC 90 from SW to NW corners Height matched to Tank Overflow 3. New 10Kl Tank, located close to house. S-W corner a. 10Kl. Metal. For FFS use. Other tanks FG & Poly – would go in a Fire b. Existing build so not compulsory, and if new would have to be separated from house. Old concrete tank as backup FFS source. c. Fit WaterNymph and TankVac 4. Pump/Pressure Pump for new Tank. a. A prescriptive recommendation would be so helpful as there seems to be so many options available. Left to my own devices, I’d be back with another thread asking for help. 5. FG Tank As this will become a Settling Tank a. Arrange cleaning of Tank b. Fix inlets, proper seals c. Add sediment filters d. Add low position inlet for T take-off e. Configure Overflow to low inlet on Concrete Tank f. Basic sediment filter 6. Plumber to revise feed from FG to house into low inlet in new tank as a backup supply. Plumb from new tank to house supply. I did forgo some of the items I’d have liked, WaterNymph and TankVac to the FG Tank, due to budget. I have also ordered an .5 micron filter for Undersink use, but wish to add another in the system. Advice on the filter grade will help this decision as well. I’d assume it would be positioned ahead of the pump at the new tank. Installing the tank will be somewhat of a challenge as there is only a metre space between house and shed, and a lift of over a metre, but I hope the Tank firm will have a Hiabb (sp?) to cope. Concrete for the base, another issue. In my haste to re-write this, lost a longer post while submitting (timed out) , I might have missed some relevant bits, but I’m certain they will be corrected if required. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 9Jul 14, 2014 12:09 am I overlooked one query in regard to the Fibreglass tank. As the two feed pipes are approximately are only 600mm from the top of the tank, but as it's recommended to feed in at a lower level, will tapping the 90 PVC and running pressure pipe down to a low inlet work? Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,268 VIC Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 10Jul 15, 2014 3:35 am tezzab As the two feed pipes are approximately are only 600mm from the top of the tank, but as it's recommended to feed in at a lower level, will tapping the 90 PVC and running pressure pipe down to a low inlet work? You would not feed pressure pipe to the fiberglass tank that the two 90 mm PVC pipes go to and you would only divert water from the 90 mm pipes to a meshed inlet at the top of that tank. You cannot divert water directly into a tank unless it has passed through mosquito proof mesh and the pressure pipe would only supply a new dedicated house tank through a low restriction inlet. It's a different flow path to the Gympie thread. viewtopic.php?f=35&t=60317 The best thing to do is to fit tees at the bottom of the 90 mm risers so that the bed load drops to the bottom of attached vertical pipes...sediment traps that would also serve as first flush diverters whenever the pipes were pre-drained. At the bottom, each trap would connect to an elbow and a horizontal pipe with a drain valve attached. This pipe could then be regularly flushed. The water diverted to the fiberglass tank would still go up the 600 mm risers. One problem at the moment is that there is no way to flush the pipes. If there is a lot of sediment and other muck in the (currently unsealed) FG tank, imagine what the inside of the 90 mm infeed pipes look like. When you get the tank cleaned, you should already have a new house tank operational. You can then discharge the excess water that goes down the two 90 mm pvc pipes to waste for the first one-two months to hopefully clean out the pipes. Fortunately, you live in a high rainfall area with a regular 'supply' that exceeds the demand. Re your summary... Why are you referring to a new 10k house tank? This would be a good size but it would also cost more than a 5,000 L tank plus it would either have a larger diameter or be higher. You need to determine where you want/need a tank and that will largely dictate what size you can have. If the fiberglass tank is cleaned and has good water, you might only need to top up a 5k house tank a couple of times a year during summer. I am largely in the dark as I have not been on site and my suggestions are mostly things that you may be able to consider. For example, I don't know the condition, age or size of the pump but I do know that it is pumping water uphill from a distance. If you get a new tank and pump, I would be looking at a good value pump connected to a pressure tank. A good size pressure tank will substantially reduce pump wear and energy use. The pump will also be operating in its sweet spot when filling a pressure tank rather than operating inefficiently when supplying low flow fixtures such as cisterns and washing machines. I discussed pumps and pressure tanks in the post on another thread that I have linked below. viewtopic.php?p=1198909#p1198909 Probably the best value pump around at the moment is the new AL-KO Jet 3500 800W pump that sells for $119 direct from the factory store. https://www.alkogarden.com.au/categorie ... ater_pumps https://www.alkogarden.com.au/products/JET%203500 This price does not include a pressure switch. When a pump is connected to a pressure tank, the pressure switch must be set to the tank's pressure, for example, if the tank is set at 28 psi, the switch would be set at 30 psi cut in (starts before the pressure tank empties) and 50 psi cut out. If you use a standard switch with the normal higher cut out setting, the pump will inefficiently 'run on' for some time after the tank is full. I have a customer who recently bought an AL-KO 3500 pump and a 60 litre Davey pressure tank, model 24060P ($200) and a 30/50 psi adjustable switch for $80. All up: $399. Great value. There are also some connections needed plus the blue stripe poly hose and fittings. The draw down is 22.8 litres and the tank has a 5 year warranty. Pressure tanks can also be fitted in tandem, making it easy to increase the capacity later on if needed. It is sometimes much cheaper to fit two medium size tanks in tandem rather than buy a larger tank. Does the concrete tank have a Storz fitting? You also don't want to rely on an electric pump if there is a fire. A WaterNymph would not be necessary on the new tank if you use Supadivertas and sediment traps. Just don't have the bottom of the pump's draw outlet lower than 80 mm above the bottom of the tank at the outlet's lowest point and make sure that you order it within 75 degrees of the low restriction inlet. I am also thinking that with your rainfall pattern, you probably only need 25 mm (30.5 mm ID) & 40 mm (44.1 mm ID) class 9 PVC pipes. The tank will be full most of the time and it would need heavy rain to trouble a class 9 pipe over the likely distance. A TankVac would not be necessary for the new house tank. The water will be very clean and any sediment will be like talcum powder. It is easy to quickly vacuum a tank every 5 years or so when it is properly set up. If the fiberglass tank overflows from the top of the wall into the concrete tank, you cannot fit a TankVac to that tank. 5e; not sure what you mean here. The AL-KO pump is a jet pump and so it has good suction. The pressure tank can be away from the house tank and any filters could be between the pump and the pressure tank. You will need a cover on the pump and you might want to look at something neat that would house the pump, pressure tank and filters, a nice wooden 'bench' for example where you could also store other items. Re filters, the cradle doesn't vary much in price regardless of you having 1, 2 or 3 cartridge filters. The filters will have an easy life. The DIY sediment trap diagram below can also be found in ReNew magazine, issue 127. Note that the diagram shows it fitted to 100 mm DWV pipe but the method is the same for all pipes. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 11Jul 15, 2014 5:21 pm Quote: You would not feed pressure pipe to the fiberglass tank that the two 90 mm PVC pipes go to and you would only divert water from the 90 mm pipes to a meshed inlet at the top of that tank Thanks once more for clarifying my misconceptions, or plans to use the wrong type of pipe. I will follow the “best thing to do” instructions, in terms of a Sediment Trap. There is nearly 6 metres of exposed pipe in which to do this. Is there an optimum length for both the 90mm and the 40DWV ? I now have a “plate” of acrylic sheet that I will mount the 2 elbows that feed the Tank. I have already fitted these pipes with mesh filters. Quote: Why are you referring to a new 10k house tank? This might be a requirement subject to a Building Permit for an extension, and possibly may exclude the need for a 5,000 litre plus a 10,000 litre tank. The information and details on pumps and pressure tanks cleared up quite a lot, especially in proper matching, as well as how to preserve the life of the pump. Quote: Does the concrete tank have a Storz fitting? You also don't want to rely on an electric pump if there is a fire. The concrete tank may be a reserve, given it has many cracks, with more to come if another earthquake arrives. A petrol Fire Pump will be fitted, though supply might be through the access hatch. No Storz is currently fitted, but is on the long list. Quote: 5e; not sure what you mean here. I had forgotten that there is already a presumed inlet to the Concrete Tank from the Fibreglass one, on a valve. I was though thinking of a way to take whaterver overflowed from the Fibreglass Tank into the Concrete Tank, rather than it being wasted going down the hill. I did think of the Camel tank setup as well, but that was for balancing? In regard to the initial tank to pump Filters, it’s more a case of knowing the best size to use, as in microns, to use, so as to not interfere with the water flow, if indeed they are related issues. Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,268 VIC Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 12Jul 18, 2014 3:24 am tezzab Quote: Why are you referring to a new 10k house tank? This might be a requirement subject to a Building Permit for an extension, and possibly may exclude the need for a 5,000 litre plus a 10,000 litre tank. I see. Just remember that the house tank's wet system head will be measured to the tank's water level and not to the rim above the tank's top inlet when deciding the tank's best height. You seem to have a good grasp on it now. I think that there may have been some early confusion about the flow path and the different pipes because of your understanding of the Gympie thread's flow path but not all systems are the same. You use proven ideas and then modify the flow path to your own situation. I did a late post about this on the Gympie thread, have you read it? tezzab The concrete tank may be a reserve, given it has many cracks, with more to come if another earthquake arrives. There have been a few in recent years but a while now since the last one. Must be due soon! What valves are there on the concrete tank? tezzab In regard to the initial tank to pump Filters, it’s more a case of knowing the best size to use, as in microns, to use, so as to not interfere with the water flow, if indeed they are related issues. The new system will deliver far superior water to what you currently have but I'm hoping that you don't get possums on the roof. Do a bit of Googling and acquaint yourself with some filter knowledge and prices. Doing a search on W-P might also be of benefit. A lot of people have a carbon filter but I doubt very much as to whether a carbon filter would be beneficial with your proposed system. Many people have a 20 micron, 10 micron and a 2 micron set up. You could look at a 10 & 2 micron set up if you get filters. You also need to look at under sink filters; i.e., do you really need to filter more than the kitchen water? Below is a website with good information. http://tankdoctor.com.au/water-filters/ Don't disregard Bunnings etc. I would also keep any filter under cover...no matter the filter colour (blue or white). If you don't have filters, you will still have the 750 micron Supadiverta primary filter, a first flush system, continuous sediment extraction from the S/D reservoir throughout the entire rain event, a sediment trap in the wet pipe, a pump draw valve that isn't fitted very close to the bottom of the tank (unlike most other tanks), the wet system pipe will be constantly flushed PLUS there won't be a vertical riser (or an overflow pipe) on the house tank! 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 13Jul 19, 2014 12:02 pm Quote: Just remember that the house tank's wet system head will be measured to the tank's water level and not to the rim above the tank's top inlet when deciding the tank's best height. Quote: PLUS there won't be a vertical riser (or an overflow pipe) on the house tank! I think I remember that this is a variable, “dynamic head”, so I’m not absolutely sure on this, even after all your help so far. If I have got the information correct, the 3 x S/Ds will only need to come vertically up to the low resistance inlet level, along with the top-up water pumped up from the Fibreglass tank. If correct, I then need only order the tank with a Drain Valve, an access hole at the top, an outlet to the filter/pump that is within 75º of the inlet and is 100mm high, so above the sediment on the bottom. After meeting a Building Surveyor yesterday, it seems that there will not be requirement for a 10,000 litre tank for other FFS purposes, so your main recommendation of a 5,000 litre one will be followed. The “shed” to be built can be a building Classification that does not bring in a number of requirements. Filter will be examined further, though an Undersink unit has been ordered already. I may firstly fit a larger filter at the Fibreglass Tank, as that is scheduled for a clean shortly. A finer grade filter will be incorporated with the 5,000 tank and pump and pressure tank. I am fortunate in having 1.8m wide verandahs so these can be protected at the wall. However, part of the renovation work will entail removal of wall boards to insert insulation. The wallboard will be replaced with a composite insulating panel. Rather than double up on fitting, this will wait until the wall is done. Quote: What valves are there on the concrete tank? There’s only 1 visible valve to the concrete tank, which is at a T to the line from the Fibreglass Tank prior to the pump. Tank Base. It seems best, even for a 5,000 litre tank, to use a concrete base. As with the fitting of the pump, filter and pressure tank, there are other building works that require concrete. Just for economies, given the distance/time from concrete suppliers, tank slab will best be done at the same time as a building slab and several paths are poured. In the interim new guttering with mesh filters, extra downpipes, sediment filters to the Fibreglass tank, fully sealed new inlets and a clean tank will get the system a progressive partial upgrade. Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,268 VIC Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 14Jul 19, 2014 1:25 pm tezzab If I have got the information correct, the 3 x S/Ds will only need to come vertically up to the low resistance inlet level, along with the top-up water pumped up from the Fibreglass tank. That is correct. All you will see is a tank sitting there. It's best to use a length of PondFlex hose or similar for a flexible coupling between the PVC pressure pipe and the tank's low inlet valve. If a PVC elbow is used, it should be a 45 degree elbow to maintain the low resistance flow path and minimise friction losses. Hard (pipe) connections to a tank (and pump) are sub standard. This also includes overflow pipes and PVC pipes fitted at the top of tanks that act as overflows to a nearby tank. As soon as there is any ground movement or tank distortion, the risk of leaks and/or breakages is high. You wouldn't usually have the top up water plumbed into the same pipe though because the pump will have the head to also fill the S/D reservoir and then flow back to the fiberglass tank! The water could also be sitting in the top up line for 6 months or more. You would need a very reliable check valve so that there was no chance of the water draining from the house tank to the fiberglass tank. tezzab After meeting a Building Surveyor yesterday, it seems that there will not be requirement for a 10,000 litre tank for other FFS purposes, so your main recommendation of a 5,000 litre one will be followed. The 5,000 litre tank was suggested because of cost and diameter/height considerations. I was also thinking of a poly tank. If you want/need a ColorBond tank and there is little difference in price with metal tanks if you have a larger one and if it all works in, then by all means...have a bigger tank. I am sure that Gippsland Tanks make tanks to size. Delivery access also has to be considered when you order a tank. The type and state of roads at different times of the year in some rural areas needs to be remembered. You need to ask as to what type of vehicle will be delivering the tank because the delivery driver might be doing a 'milk run'. They may also need to know if there is a suitable turning circle on site. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 15Jul 19, 2014 6:09 pm With your help on this thread, as well as picking the appropriate details from others, the Renew article and "focused" googling, my concept is almost there. Once I've completed the first up items, and taken care of several urgent items in the planning for the other parts of the renovation, I will attempt a diagram, noting the components. This usually helps my assessment of work to be done, sequence etc. It would be a final checklist before proceeding.. So, separate inlets to the 5,000 litre tank for S/Ds and Fibreglass Tank. While I've though of a Poly tank I think I'd like to know that there's at least one non-melting source of water, if ever needed, for last minute needs. There's only a narrow gap between shed and house, but the tank may be able to passed over the neighbour's fence, if he removes cows, lambs and the 7kv fence supply. Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,268 VIC Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 16Jul 19, 2014 6:20 pm tezzab There's only a narrow gap between shed and house How narrow? 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 17Jul 19, 2014 6:43 pm there's just over 1metre, so a sideways 1 metre high tank would need to be 2.5m approximately in diameter for 5,000 litres. But, it will requires planks to roll it up the hill at that point, maybe 800mm over a little retaining wall. The neighbour's fence looks easier. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 18Jul 29, 2014 10:03 pm after a number of posts and great advice, planning has moved along to preparation and the beginnings of some actual practice. Gutter supplies have arrived and plumber is to start in a week. I'm dismembering the existing gutter, wild winds permitting. The Fibreglass Tank has been vacuumed, a not inexpensive exercise, but it did seem it had never been done previously. Doing so lost around 15% of the tank water, but it had actually been full, a miracle considering all the losses of the old guttering. The link is to a Dropbox site where a video of the latter part of the cleaning process can be downloaded. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ovvrfru35cfyjrc/4Tank.MOV More updates on putting SaveH2O's advice into practice will follow. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 19Sep 11, 2014 6:00 pm The thread might have appeared dormant, but there's been some activity mostly in the planning phases. Given excellent advice, plans have been rationalised a little to suit the local conditions. A 5kl house tank will be installed, but will wait until concretors are here to other works, slabs and paths. This may be 6-8 weeks away. This will allow time to revise the location. New building plans have been revised to accommodate various requirements imposed by Planning and Building Permits. A western spot may now change to the East. Several Supadivertas and Gutter Pumper are awaiting fitting, but dependant on tank choice. These will feed the new tank, also to be fed by the existing FG tank, used then as a settling tank. Timing of this and the re-plumbing depends on other building works involving recladding and insulation installation. Sediment filters are planned to be fitted within a week to the existing tank. New guttering was completed several weeks ago. With the cleaning of the tank, it was only 3/4 full. With each rainfall, I'd been observing the Overflow mesh trap, but saw nothing. On adding a new mesh insert filter to the 400mm "access" mesh today, I saw that the tank is completely full, but on that side only. The Overflow is on the opposite side, and evidently the tank is not quite levelled, maybe as a result of a prior earthquake that destroyed one or 2 concrete tanks. The water level at the overflow side is about 20mm below the bottom of the pipe. During tank cleaning it was discovered that the support post had deteriorated and no longer supported the centre at the top, with ponding evident there. Interestingly, the damaged concrete tank, with no visible signs of inlet pipes anywhere, was dipped, and found to be 50% full, so approx 25kl. It may be a while till the next update, as drafting, permit approvals etc are awaiting processing. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Rural Rainwater Renovation 20Dec 08, 2014 4:08 pm a very overdue update, but I waited to see if it actually worked, that's my excuse... After collecting various parts and prototyping, the 2 risers have been replaced. No more open inlets to the tank. The costliest components were the tools, e.g. Holewsaws for 90mm and 100mm holes in the fibreglass. From saveH2O's suggestion, T joints were used to create vertical sediment traps, with PVC balls valves fitted. Finding the right combination of reducers to mate with available ball valves was a juggle. There are different lengths on the sediment traps, victims of measure twice, cut once. The 100mm DWV overflow was fitted using a Wallace Seal, surprisingly effective, and flows into the old 60kl Concrete Tank for fire and garden use. It may look a little low on the tank, but it was also discovered the tank is not on a solid base and there's a lean of several degrees. Pump has been serviced, with a new main capacitor replacement, and moved from sitting on the muddy ground to a temporary position on an old timber pallet. Several concrete path sections removed from the back yard will be relocated as permanent pump platforms for house and fire fighting pumps. The 5kl house tank is on hold till other priorities are sorted, but the ALKO pump and pre-filter are here on standby for that time. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Reply Sign in or Join to reply to this Topic End
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