Browse Forums Eco Living 1 Jun 19, 2013 1:30 am http://joshshouse.com.au After 20 years of renovating other people’s houses and gardens to demonstrate his sustainable design ideas, Josh Byrne (environmental scientist & well known ABC TV’s Gardening Australia presenter) is undertaking his most ambitious house project yet – the design and construction of two 10 star energy efficient family homes in the Fremantle suburb of Hilton. Tired of hearing that sustainable construction has to cost more, Josh and his colleagues want to prove that resource efficient homes can be built at comparable cost and timeframes to regular houses. The homes will be thermally comfortable year round, without the need for air conditioning or additional heating. They will generate more electricity than they use, and will harvest and recycle water. In addition to private garden areas, a common productive garden will supply both houses with fresh food. What sets this project apart from many others is that the building designs have achieved a 10 Star energy efficiency rating*, whilst intentionally using conventional building materials and construction methods so they can easily be replicated by industry and the wider community. The project also demonstrates a more sensitive approach to residential subdivision that has considered maximising effective garden area around the homes to allow for natural shading, children’s play spaces and local food production – important health and lifestyle benefits that are rapidly disappearing from our suburbs. Construction started in November 2012 Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 2Jun 19, 2013 6:41 am Compared to the German Passivhaus (passive house) standard, I can't say I'm in any way impressed. What about airtightness of the house? I can't see anything about that. Using low-e glass instead of double glazing (except for a single house)? Using closed cell foam as insulation (wtf. Use a proper membrane and get some decent insulation), and using a few centimeters of insulation in general (compared to, say, 48cm of insulation)? Seriously? Nope, I can't say I'm impressed if that is the cutting edge in Australia and that gets it 10 stars. I'm amazed how that can get the highest number of stars. In my mind, that shows just how useless the star ratings are, imo. Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 3Jun 19, 2013 10:54 am I've been following Josh's build and I say full marks to him. In a wonderful temperate climate like Fremantle he demonstrates that it is easy to achieve a great efficiency rating in a mainstream house so why aren't we all doing it. In a sub-zero climate like Germany, Passivehaus does apply and there are many aspects of that standard we should use here. We are privileged in Australia to not need 48cm of insulation and HRV systems in a pressure tight envelope. The star rating does have its flaws but is only a tool to push the building industry towards more appropriate construction. I'm designing our build at the moment and was aiming at 8 stars but might aim higher. I learned a lot from Passivehaus, Josh's House website, Yourhome, Energised Homes (8 Aquarius crt) and of course H1. The true test for Josh's house will ne the livability after it is complete. I will follow with interest. Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 4Jun 19, 2013 11:09 am Airtightness works as well in heat as in cold. As does insulation. An airtight membrane doesn't care if it's keeping warm in or out, nor does insulation knows if it's keeping the heat in or the heat out. There is one thing I can take from it: It's bloody easy to achieve a high star rating in Australia, and it doesn't need to cost an arm or a leg. It can be done on the cheap. Before I'm out, another benefit of a properly designed airtight house (with enough designed ventilation - not just leaks) is that there is less risk of mould and so on. I mean, he uses low voc paint, but apparently didn't give much thought to make the house air tight with a proper membrane, and he used closed cell foam (=more chemicals than glass or rockwool or similar) for insulation. Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 5Jun 19, 2013 9:48 pm Hi Danois, You raise some good arguments and I am not going to argue with you. However Josh's project is also about outdoor/indoor living so the air tight design that you discuss wouldn't work as well. Furthermore Fremantle and west coast of South west Australia have the fremantle doctor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremantle_Doctor, a cool summer breeze, that cools temperatures from high 30's down to mid 20's throughout summer. I also think Josh is trying to show that you can produce a house for around the same price of a standard project home. Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 6Jun 19, 2013 10:54 pm The art of building design is a balanced solution of many competing and sometimes conflicting requirements. What could be more conflicting than wanting the best quality for the least amount of money? or the biggest bang for your buck? Building in theory is easy. you can buy best materials, the best tradesmen and the expertise you need, but what makes it hard is time and money. Building (including building design) is more of an art of economics rather than anything else. Just as building designer has to make sure that the building envelope fits on your land so it is with the local climate. What is the point of designing to a German standard? We don't get the extremes in temperature they do, it's just not relevant, you might as well design your house for a block of land in China. "I also think Josh is trying to show that you can produce a house for around the same price of a standard project home." You are spot on hj84 and full marks to Josh Byrne Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 7Jun 19, 2013 11:37 pm B-E, Insulation, thermal bridges and airtightness work the same regardless where in the world you are. It's physics, and it does not matter which site you place it on, be it Germany, China, or Australia. The Passivhaus Standard is no different to the Australian Standards in that it sets minimum standards for the actual construction (although the bar is set much higher). But in any case, let me quote myself: Danois There is one thing I can take from it: It's bloody easy to achieve a high star rating in Australia, and it doesn't need to cost an arm or a leg. It can be done on the cheap. Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 8Jun 20, 2013 8:42 am You are right about insulation Danois it works the same everywhere and I get to see thermal loss/gain on my inspections with thermal imaging however that is not the point I am trying to get across . You can set the standard as high as you like but you have to be able to afford it Quality is Function of price and this is why not everyone can afford to drive Maybach. There is nothing wrong with driving a Holden. Perhaps you can post relative average floor areas of German houses to Australian houses, the differences in cost to build in Germany and here and the relative home ownership percentages and then we may have a better picture of your argument of why we should aspire to some higher German standard when we cannot afford it. In theory we all would like the best of everything but the economic reality gets in the way. The secret is to do better with the resources and the knowledge we have and this is what hj84 was writing about Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 9Jun 20, 2013 9:18 am Okay, so when your China-strawman failed, let's go with one of sizes instead, right? Houses are in general smaller in Europe. But I don't see how that's relevant? It's about priorities. Of course you can build bigger if you skimp on materials or quality. And if your first priority is square footage, and you have a set amount of money (as most do), of course the quality will not be at the very top. What I'm saying is that Josh's house was/is touted as creme de la creme of sustainable house design, and I question some of the choices he has made. You run to his defence trying to argue that that's okay, because houses in Australia are generally bigger than in Germany.What the hell is that about? Are you arguing that sustainable design should take a backseat to size, and that going larger should always trump sustainability? Why else would you bring in the size of houses in Germany? Don't bother answering that, as I figure it's the same reason you attempted your China analogy. Yes, I can build a huge barn for small percentile of what a nice, little house will cost me. So what? What I have repeated before in this thread, is that I agree that a high star rating (10, no less), can be achieved on the cheap. And if that is what he set out to prove, then great. However, reading the OP and Josh's own site, that's not the only reason: It's about sustainability and efficiency, and that is where I find some of his choices and priorities weird, or at least incomplete. Personally, I'd rather live in a smaller house, good for my health and general comfort, than in a big house prone to mould and general discomfort (comparitively). Oh, and making a house airtight is not difficult if it's thought of in the design phase. Making a run-of-the-mill house airtight after the fact, I consider that almost impossible with wires and pipes and whatnot going through walls. Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 10Jun 20, 2013 1:46 pm It sounds like some of you have entirely missed the point of his building this project. You dont need a double glazed passive haus in Fremantle, or an uber hipster hay barn to be energy and water efficient. Passivehaus's arent the be all and end all of design - a lot of those homes need rain and snow to run properly - two things WA has extremely little of. He's building it for cheaper than an average ugly lego aussie block. Its been built in 6 months or something. He's designed it (or the designer has anyway) to look like an average aussie home, on an average aussie site, using materials available from Bunnings. The point is s exactly what Danois wrote: There is one thing I can take from it: It's bloody easy to achieve a high star rating in Australia, and it doesn't need to cost an arm or a leg. It can be done on the cheap. Exactly. So why aren't state-build homes constructed like this? Or other cheap housing? Why does everyone only use double brick? Why doesn't everyone use grey water and have water tanks? Why is the bulk of demolition waste ending up as landfill? (LOVE gumtree for saving landfill). Its cheap and easy and here are the plans - for free. Josh Byrne is getting the word out there and helping - full points. BTW - one of the videos is about the windows and i think they talk about the airtightness of the homes on there. Passivehaus isn't for everywhere or everyone. I much prefer the indoor outdoor living style, but thats just me. Passivehaus's need air circulation/refreshing machinery too dont they? Ergh.. More bills.. Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 11Jun 20, 2013 2:13 pm Danois wrote "Personally, I'd rather live in a smaller house, good for my health and general comfort, than in a big house prone to mould and general discomfort (comparitively). Oh, and making a house airtight is not difficult if it's thought of in the design phase. Making a run-of-the-mill house airtight after the fact, I consider that almost impossible with wires and pipes and whatnot going through walls." Of course, you can have whatever preference you like but Australians like big houses and indoor outdoor living. That is why they buy big homes from project builders knowing it's not first quality but an absolute first class value for money. The ones that are more concerned about quality go to boutique builders and pay more. You talk about air tightness of buildings but we don't want to live in tin can submarines with the only air coming in from forced fan ventilation. Who wants to be in a closed system with recirculated air (toxins) ? It is much more healthy to have free flowing natural ventilation through open windows and doors. You talk about dampness but dampness is not a significant issue in vast majority of homes and where it is it's usually from poor maintenance rather than design/build. As property inspector I can tell you that heat loss/gain through convection(air loss) is a non event, the most prevalent problem is loss thru conduction as a result of poorly laid or missing insulation. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 12Jun 20, 2013 9:42 pm Quote: As property inspector I can tell you that heat loss/gain through convection(air loss) is a non event, the most prevalent problem is loss thru conduction as a result of poorly laid or missing insulation. Oh, I'm sorry. With you around doing visual inspections there is no reason for blower door testing, and actual testing of airtightness and a designed attempt to minimise perforation of the membrane. If only more people could make use of your services, rendering proper design and actual testing useless. building-expert Of course, you can have whatever preference you like but Australians like big houses and indoor outdoor living. That is why they buy big homes from project builders knowing it's not first quality but an absolute first class value for money. The ones that are more concerned about quality go to boutique builders and pay more. And you once again try to defend what is supposed to be a house with great sustainability and minimal energy usage by arguing that its shortcomings as I perceive them is not shortcomings since people want a big house. You still don't see that type of argument as dishonest, I suppose. Quote: You talk about air tightness of buildings but we don't want to live in tin can submarines with the only air coming in from forced fan ventilation. Who wants to be in a closed system with recirculated air (toxins) ? More strawmanning from you. I'm pretty sure I at some point said something along the lines of "Better have an airtight house with designed ventilation than a house with leaks". Noone talked about living in a plastic bag. And before you continue with the notion of forced ventilation being bad, I'm sorry, but he's having reversible fans installed. And even if they're not hidden or making use of tubes, they're still moving air mechanically. Although not as allergy friendly as something which changes the entire volume of air with fresh, new air every couple of hours. It's quite telling that on one hand, you claim that you can tell that (air) leaks aren't a problem, and at the same time claim that an airtight house is bad. Unless of course you mean that the leaks aren't bad enough to be a problem. But if so, perhaps you should take a looks of actual studies instead of relying on your gut feeling. Edit: And an ERV/HRV doesn't recirculate the air. It makes use of a heat exchanger and it actually draws new air in constantly and expels the old air. The energy recovery part of the system is the heat (or cold, as it were) exchanger which heats up (or cools down) the incoming air by using the energy from the outgoing air. In other words. As the warm or cool air from the inside is expelled, a heat changer absorbs the heat (or cold) air from the inside. And as air is pulled in, it is pulled over the heat exchanger and that exchanger now allows the pulled in air to absorb the cold or heat of the heat exchanger. It's not recirculation at all. It's replacing stale air with fresh, and making use of a heat exchanger, making sure not much energy is lost. /end edit. Quote: It is much more healthy to have free flowing natural ventilation through open windows and doors. LOL, so you continue with your strawman. Now a passive house built to the German standards can't have openable doors or windows. You should take a deep breath and have a proper think about what you are saying before you write more nonsense like this. Quote: You talk about dampness but dampness is not a significant issue in vast majority of homes and where it is it's usually from poor maintenance rather than design/build. Really? Condensation on poorly insulated walls, not enough ventilation on the roof or in the walls, ventilation of the rangehood directly into the roof space, and so on, is not a problem in your book. That's pretty funny, coming from someone who will shun designed (as in thought of in the design phase) ventilation, while claiming that you don't want an airtight house. Seriously, I'm having flashbacks to a previous discussion of ours where you acted in the same way: Misrepresenting facts, misrepresenting my arguments, and generally moving the goalposts whenever you had been shown to be wrong. Edit: Clarified a bit about the recirculation claim. Re: Josh's House - 10 Star energy efficiency rating project 13Jun 20, 2013 10:12 pm freofarmer It sounds like some of you have entirely missed the point of his building this project. You dont need a double glazed passive haus in Fremantle, or an uber hipster hay barn to be energy and water efficient. Unless i misunderstand the above, I think I need to clarify that I wasn't talking about a barn to say that a barn would be efficient. I was using a barn as an example of something that wasn't designed to live in, and as a result didn't need to be insulated, didn't need properly designed windows and didn't even need an insulated floor. I was using it as an example of where to get the most square meters cheapest juxtaposed to having a properly designed dwelling. Quote: Passivehaus's arent the be all and end all of design Noone said they were. Passivhaus is a standard. It sets the minimum standards, just the AS sets the minimum standards. A passivhaus isn't a particular type of house in the sense that it has to look and work in a certain way. It has to perform to a certain standard. There's a difference. Quote: - a lot of those homes need rain and snow to run properly - two things WA has extremely little of. I'm sorry, but that is just wrong. Need rain and snow to run properly? WTH? And while we're there. Isn't Josh building a "passive house" in the sense that it should perform to a given standard (even though it's his standard which are higher than the AS)? Quote: He's building it for cheaper than an average ugly lego aussie block. I agree. Quote: Its been built in 6 months or something. He's designed it (or the designer has anyway) to look like an average aussie home, on an average aussie site, using materials available from Bunnings. The point is s exactly what Danois wrote: Danois There is one thing I can take from it: It's bloody easy to achieve a high star rating in Australia, and it doesn't need to cost an arm or a leg. It can be done on the cheap. Exactly. So why aren't state-build homes constructed like this? Or other cheap housing? Why does everyone only use double brick? Why doesn't everyone use grey water and have water tanks? Why is the bulk of demolition waste ending up as landfill? (LOVE gumtree for saving landfill). Its cheap and easy and here are the plans - for free. Yes, and as a result I'm surprised that this is the epitomy of passive houses in Australia. I do think that it's a great first step, but boy is there a long way to go. Especially with people like "Building-Expert" who tries to argue that any shortcomings aren't shortcomings, since size is more important, that he can visually tell if a house is airtight, and that leaks aren't bad. Quote: Josh Byrne is getting the word out there and helping - full points. Yes, well, he does. I just don't think it should be touted as the be-all end-all of passive house design. It's a step forward to what else I have seen - not least on this site. Quote: BTW - one of the videos is about the windows and i think they talk about the airtightness of the homes on there. I must have missed that. I'll take a look again. It's funny, though, because in Europe a lot of emphasis is put on how to make sure a house is airtight. Even with non-passive houses. Apparently Europeans understand how much a difference it makes. It's not just about having proper insulation, proper windows and so on, but actually have the surrounds airtight as well. Quote: Passivehaus isn't for everywhere or everyone. I much prefer the indoor outdoor living style, but thats just me. You can have your indoor-outdoor living style if you want. It's a matter of designing it that way. It doesn't have to be the shape of box. And let me once again remark that although not built to the German Passivhaus standard, Josh's house is built to be a passive house. Quote: Passivehaus's need air circulation/refreshing machinery too dont they? Ergh.. More bills.. Josh's house makes use of ceiling fans to waft air around. An HRV/ERV doesn't cost much to run. It's nothing compared to warming up or cooling down a leaky house. Now, such a system is more expensive up front than ceiling fans, I'll grant you that. But if the house is well insulated and airtight, the running costs compared to the poorly insulated and somewhat leaky house will be lower than heating/cooling that poorly insulated/leaky house. And, this is important to me: It's more allergy friendly to have the air exchanged on a constant basis than airing out the house by opening doors and windows ten minutes four times a day (or however much you want). Speaking of which, you will also need to cool down/warm up the air you just exchanged anyway. An ERV is basically a heat exchanger with a fan, making it much more efficient. Edit: Fixed quotes go upvc window frames ensure insulation under colorbond. not just sarking, lighter color roof also not sure if you have seen this viewtopic.php?t=5823 last couple of pages… 4 98123 DIY, Home Maintenance & Repair That laser level looks lovely! We bought one for less than a quarter of that price off eBay. It worked really well for us and it's still going now, five years later. After… 1 13333 |