Browse Forums Eco Living Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 41Aug 04, 2009 12:13 am I don't know if you were able to change the northing on google to check shading. I could never work it out (it might have changed now... I was asking them for about 5 years) seems this side of the globe doesn't exist It always came up southing for me But gumnut cottage is placed so check it out Oh yeh and the scar across the road What a n00b here we are living in, get this, 'The wilderness estate' so what's he do, chop all the trees down Onc_Artisan PS The big loss you have is more arvo sun rather than morning sun. IMHO only but hey 28degs and balmy got to love that Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 42Aug 04, 2009 12:36 am onc_artisan I don't know if you were able to change the northing on google to check shading. I could never work it out (it might have changed now... I was asking them for about 5 years) seems this side of the globe doesn't exist I just used this combined with trigonometry. http://sunposition.info/sunposition/spc/locations.php I can tell you where I should put my vegetable patch even before spring arrives. Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 43Aug 04, 2009 12:40 am Got to get on the bus Dymo, Backyard Aquaponics saves water, no firt, and grows fish been there done that eh? Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 44Aug 04, 2009 12:52 am onc_artisan Got to get on the bus Dymo, Backyard Aquaponics saves water, no firt, and grows fish been there done that eh? I am going to do the organic thing. I am still concerned I have to kill fish to feed fish. I don't like that idea very much. If you can guarantee 100% fish-free food will keep things going then you might be able to sell me on the idea. Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 45Aug 04, 2009 1:01 am Do you eat fish? You should you know at least 2-3 times a week, specially omega3&6 good for your brain Trout have the best 3&6 and I grow them. My trout are happy with their diet, no fish meal in there. But Coles have some from right across the world... would you buy those? Some are from the Nile, yeh Nile perch... or North atlantic salmon (trout are salmonoids) Any of those take your fancy? Onc_Artisan Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 46Aug 04, 2009 1:13 am onc_artisan Do you eat fish? You should you know at least 2-3 times a week, specially omega3&6 good for your brain Trout have the best 3&6 and I grow them. My trout are happy with their diet, no fish meal in there. But Coles have some from right across the world... would you buy those? Some are from the Nile, yeh Nile perch... or North atlantic salmon (trout are salmonoids) Any of those take your fancy? Onc_Artisan We don't buy our fish from Coles but then again I don't grow my own cows. What do you feed your fish then? Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 47Aug 04, 2009 1:17 am dymonite69 I am still concerned I have to kill fish to feed fish. Unless of course it is fish that people don't eat anyway and that my fish would have eaten in the wild. Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 48Aug 04, 2009 1:23 am Well I did tell you. But I make up a brew that has all the protein they need, eggs and fish frames(filleted) veggies with iron ie beetroot/silverbeet, potatoes for carbs etc etc wholemeal bread leftovers and grind it and pelletize thru a mincer like Nan used to have. Costs about 85c per kilo of live fish, FCR (food conversion ratio)1.2:1 and ~80% edible flesh, 20% waste , but it is not cause I turn them into fish food Onc_Artisan. Hey I have a 0600 start and need my beauty sleep (if you knew me you'd agree) Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 49Aug 04, 2009 1:29 am onc_artisan Well I did tell you. But I make up a brew that has all the protein they need, eggs and fish frames(filleted) veggies with iron ie beetroot/silverbeet, potatoes for carbs etc etc wholemeal bread leftovers and grind it and pelletize thru a mincer like Nan used to have. Costs about 85c per kilo of live fish, FCR (food conversion ratio)1.2:1 and ~80% edible flesh, 20% waste , but it is not cause I turn them into fish food Onc_Artisan. Hey I have a 0600 start and need my beauty sleep (if you knew me you'd agree) What is fish frame Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 50Aug 04, 2009 1:47 am dymonite69 What is fish frame A fish frame is the skeletal frame of a fish if I go fishing I will have a few of these. dymonite69 fish frames(filleted) I guess if you are into organics then you will be planting some seeds in the next few days, as the moon will help germination but that it OT. Onc_Artisan Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 51Aug 04, 2009 12:13 pm Yak_Chat As for knowing what or how his thermal mass works and has been working for him - You seem to be either ignoring or assuming way to much from your new found passion and "scientific data" Dear YC, I think we are working from two opposing ends of the spectrum on this one. I am not saying that thermal mass cannot work in an unusual situation with some clever design. But it would be wrong to encapsulate ESD as a series of unusual ideas and applications. Reporting an atypical approach may encourage a novice to attempt this themselves with negative consequences. By nature, individuals are attracted to the novel rather than the well-trodden path. 'I saw it on a article on 60 minutes, so now I am going to try it myself' I do not underestimate the ability of humans to completely misinterpret or misapply a apparently simple but inherently complex principle. I will give you an example. In my workplace we prescribe a set of procedures and protocols for the more junior staff. Some of them may appear overly restrictive. I have also been known to break them myself. The reasons these 'rules' are there is to ensure that the environment remains safe for everyone. I may be able to get away with these deviations because I can appreciate the subtle complexities of the situation from of my breadth of experience and understanding. I am also more able to compensate if things don't 'go to plan'. However, our trainees may not possess this skill or discernment. The problem is that the masses can't afford a completely customised solution. I know you like Emilis' work but he will never be able to design and build an entire real estate development. The volume market that has to be penetrated by ESD principles for any significant changes in energy consumption to be made in the housing sector. The impact of a few dozen houses on Sustainable House day is a drop in the ocean. That leaves it to the hundreds of ordinary building designer, builders and contractors to construct energy efficient buildings with existing techniques and the least expensive materials. A couple years ago I contacted a ESD architect to get a quote. He warned me that "it will cost you but it will be worth it". I asked how much. He replied "at least $2500/m2". I asked why so much. "Because ESD needs lots of thermal mass and that gets expensive" he chided. Lots of questions ran through my mind one of which was "what is 'lots' thermal mass" and when do you know 'how much is enough'. Was it a pure linear relationship reaching infinity? A good amount = good efficiency. An insane amount = amazing efficiency? As I investigated further I found out that mass had to be used wisely. It was important where you put it and the optimal thickness for it. There were even recommendations on how much you used. I got to understand the physics and science behind this material. This was important information because as I was told 'this stuff was expensive' I believe there are only a few thermal mass materials suitable for the volume building market. Rammed earth is technically cheap but the expertise is limited and the labour or equipment is specialised. I am aware of only one WA outfit that provides a rammed earth turnkey solution. I am not sure how many houses they produce. Adobe and earthships are too labour intensive (we are talking 'volume-market') Timbercrete can't be produced in sufficient quantities and I am not sure if there is enough raw material for large orders (ours took 5 months). That only leaves brick, concrete or AAC. AAC is probably the cheapest to buy and erect. It has also has the least embodied energy of the three. There probably is a 'thermal mass' solution for a range climates but I don't think using this as the first option is the most cost-effective deployment (monetarily or in embodied energy terms). The example you gave of successful thermal mass buildings in warm climates support the commonly held view that thermal mass either has to be insulated or well shielded from solar gain during hot weather. Its purpose here is to act as a convective heat absorber of the hot air (not as a radiant heat absorber). Sustained exposure to direct radiant heat (sunshine) over successive days will quickly exceed the volumetric heat capacity of the wall. As my colleague with the $80K of rammed earth walls will testify. In a warm climate, why design your external wall to absorb heat at all. Firstly, radiant heat can be deflected by a cheap but effective reflective foil laminate. Simple insulation can then retard the flow of convective heat into the house. Why not reserve the (more expensive) thermal mass for the inside where it can 'mop' up the residual air heat inside. Keeping the mass away from direct sunlight by positioning of window shade will prevent it from overheating. Later in the evening (if the outside temperature drops sufficiently) open up the house for the breezes to wash away the excess heat. As I mentioned in another post there are only two natural sources of energy - the sun and the wind. Natural cooling with thermal mass involves not letting the sun get on to it and encouraging the wind to remove the residual heat. Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 52Aug 04, 2009 12:41 pm Thermal mass is good. As long as the summer nights fall below 20 Celcius and the Winter days get above 22 Celcius (and you have good north facing solar access, which will take you above 25 Celcius) it will work. This covers a lot of Australia. Yes, you need to ventilate on summer nights and let the sun in in winter, but these are easy for people to do. If you are passively heating and cooling your house, all that matters is the multipliction of thermal mass by insulation (R-value). It's very difficult to increase your walls R-value from R2 to R4, but I can increase my walls thermal mass by many multiples easily (for example, internal brick walls). Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 53Aug 04, 2009 12:52 pm Dymo, In the margaret river district there are 4 rammed earth companies, a town of 10000 ppl. In perth there are many, up north many more.(also an affiliated group)Qld, NSW, likely Vic as well. But hey, construction of rammed earth is only part, concrete is another, mudbrick, insitu concrete( like rammed earth only cheaper.) There is also the possibility of precast concrete panels. If you were sick you would go to a doctor, he would send you to a specialist and you wouldn't care of the cost, so long as you are going to get better Sometimes even that doesn't work and you die. $2500sq what is wrong with that? Sound to me the going rate for a custom home. Don't even think of comparing it to a project home, the power savings will return the difference easily. In my experience only. Onc_Artisan Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 54Aug 04, 2009 1:11 pm onc_artisan If you were sick you would go to a doctor, he would send you to a specialist and you wouldn't care of the cost, so long as you are going to get better Sometimes even that doesn't work and you die. Which health system do you prefer for your country. The US - where they spend 25% more on health per capita GDP and where there are the best treatments around but only a small fraction gets to benefit, where 10% of the population are completely uninsured and where health bills are the biggest cause for personal bankruptcy? Or in Australia - where the tax payers gets to spends less and least everyone gets a basic minimum of health care. The question is whether ESD is the preserve of the elitist few who can afford it or smart enough to understand it (like private schools and health cover) or whether the majority of the population can benefit. Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 55Aug 04, 2009 1:12 pm Casa2 If you are passively heating and cooling your house, all that matters is the multipliction of thermal mass by insulation (R-value). It's very difficult to increase your walls R-value from R2 to R4, but I can increase my walls thermal mass by many multiples easily (for example, internal brick walls). Which costs more to double? Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 56Aug 04, 2009 1:14 pm I think you missed my anology. I wasn't implying anything about the health system here or there. Sorry if you missed my point. Onc_Artisan Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 57Aug 04, 2009 1:19 pm onc_artisan Dymo, In the margaret river district there are 4 rammed earth companies, a town of 10000 ppl. In perth there are many, up north many more.( There are only about 3 in all of Adelaide and none do a complete design/build solution. My understanding is that rammed earth is more cost effective than double brick in WA and this favours this market. If everyone weren't building in DB (which is high in total embodied energy), would that be problem? I have corresponded with an architect in Albany, WA who built an RBV and very comfortable in it. Added cost to build, only 5% Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 58Aug 04, 2009 1:33 pm Waste concrete, flyash, reconstituted limestone, brick rubble, tiles and glass also make nice substrates Hmmm 5% eh? A few more years and it will be cheaper We just need some ballsie ppl to get the ball rolling a bit faster. Onc_Artisan Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 59Aug 04, 2009 3:18 pm onc_artisan $2500sq what is wrong with that? Sound to me the going rate for a custom home. Don't even think of comparing it to a project home, the power savings will return the difference easily. Modest 150sqm house - cost equals $375,000. I have a problem with that. My budget is nowhere near that. Suppose I will have to live in a tent. Should be ok if I have a really big heater. Love to see the report that shows power saving of $100K - $150K plus over say 20 years. Some architects and builders clearly do not aim to supply the mass market. And thats fine. However need to recognise that the mass market is where main energy savings will be made - not in the Grand Designs. Re: When will it pay for itself - insulation and double glazing 60Aug 04, 2009 3:19 pm dymonite69 Casa2 If you are passively heating and cooling your house, all that matters is the multipliction of thermal mass by insulation (R-value). It's very difficult to increase your walls R-value from R2 to R4, but I can increase my walls thermal mass by many multiples easily (for example, internal brick walls). Which costs more to double? Which costs more to increase by 10 times. Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 This is one of the reasons I decided to go overseas for my double glazed windows. As the builder indicated, he's worked on many upmarket builds, these were the most well… 13 19239 For your reference Performance Labels: Window assemblies in housing, except timber windows, must be labelled so the label can be seen when it is in situ. For timber… 6 7716 Hi Mofflepop, I would recommend finding a building designer to prepare plans, they should design to your specified budget. The benefit is you can tender the project out… 9 20413 |