Browse Forums Eco Living Re: New Program on ABC1 41Aug 21, 2009 12:20 am A great deal of energy is lost in transmission from the power station to the home. As I understand it about 10%. It doesn't sound like much but you also have to take into consideration that a coal power plant is more efficient operating at 60% capacity than it is at 70%. This is why off peak electricity is cheaper. The closer a power plant is to 100% capacity the lower the providers profit margin is. Furthermore the electricity produced by a PV system that is fed back into the grid goes to your closest neighbour and doesn't suffer the 10% loss a distant power plant would. This is why the provider will pay you more for the electricity you produce than the electricity you use. There doesn't have to be winners and losers when it comes to ecology. It is not a seesaw with electricity providers on one side and residents on the other. Intelligent design and use of resources can be good for everyone, business, the individual and every form of life on the planet. Gravity. Its the law. At lock-up stage(lock-up stage) https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25438 Re: New Program on ABC1 42Aug 21, 2009 12:55 am trepidman A great deal of energy is lost in transmission from the power station to the home. As I understand it about 10%. Transmission losses 5-10%. Worse is the inefficiency of coal plants. They burn 3 units of coal energy to extract 1 unit of electrical energy. But how many home PV installations occur in an optimal location? Good annual sunshine. No obstructions. Just driving to work I see some 15 panel arrays parked right under a row of trees. Even accounting for transmission losses, I wonder if you could extract far more electricity by just putting all these poorly positioned panels on a solar tracker in Central Australia. Re: New Program on ABC1 43Aug 21, 2009 10:34 am Dymo this reminds me of an episode of the West Wing. The government baulked at the enormous cost of installing a PV power station in a desert location. PV is inefficient, requires a massive surface area and the power lost in transmission would be even greater from a remote desert location. All the eco solutions seemed ridiculous and pie in the sky. The episode ended with simple economics. At some point the growing cost of oil and coal makes renewable energy a viable solution. This I believe is what the Rudd government is trying to do with it's emissions trading scheme, make environmental decisions economic ones. As for the PV installation under trees. I would suggest that is rare and becoming rarer. So much more talk about ecological solutions now than there was ten or even five years ago. The education level of the populace is rising in regards to environmentalism. The energy efficiency of homes is rising. I once heard that an eight star three bedroom home with a 1.5 KW PV system, intelligently managed would break even with the power company. 5 star is the minimum now, 7 star in the U.S. and Europe. There is talk about Australia raising it's minimum rating again. We are getting close without a united effort. Imagine if all new estates jumped on the bandwagon with recycled water and group discounts for PV systems, as well as including the PV system as part of a home loan. The extra repayments on a loan would be offset by lower bills and the value of your home would be that much more. Environmentalism becomes economics so even the cynics jump on board. Gravity. Its the law. At lock-up stage(lock-up stage) https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25438 Re: New Program on ABC1 44Aug 21, 2009 10:58 am trepidman - A breath of fresh air If you pay for green power you will be creating another T3lstra that one day will be sold to the people as a public company IMHO only Much better we be involved in power generation at home... might learn to be less consuming. Less resistance, less chance of major damage if an act of God happens at a remote location. no need for distant redundancy contingencies. Onc_artisan Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: New Program on ABC1 45Aug 21, 2009 11:27 am onc_artisan Much better we be involved in power generation at home... might learn to be less consuming. I see a big danger here. Essentially this is a form of privatisation. If you can afford a PV system to generate electricity then good on you. If you can't, then you end up paying for whatever alternative you can afford (or do without). So who subsides these costs for those who cannot afford it? Even with a govt rebate, PV systems are beyond the reach of many. So this goes along the road of health and education. Great if you can pay for it but so sad, too bad if not. The issue with Telstra is that the govt realised that supporting a telco for such a huge country is a very expensive exercise. So they gave it to Sol, floated it on the market and he achieved the remarkable feat of ripping off both his shareholders and consumers. Too bad rural customer - you are just not profitable. OA, you have told me you a private businessman who I assume works long hours. You success comes form you efforts, intellect and guile. Good on you. You deserved it. You probably can afford to pay out of pocket for all your family's needs. A large portion of the population can't through no fault of their own and my question is where does that leave them? Re: New Program on ABC1 46Aug 21, 2009 12:41 pm PV is a new industry. Demand is growing as is the money pumped into development. 15% efficiency might be a brick wall much like the automobile technology took decades to see light after internal combustion. But the automobile industry became much more affordable over time with mass production and new building techniques. So will PV. Few households are without cars, in time few households will be without PV. Perhaps the rebate has less to do with households taking up the technology as nursing a new and vital industry into existence. Who says it can't do both of these things. Gravity. Its the law. At lock-up stage(lock-up stage) https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25438 Re: New Program on ABC1 47Aug 21, 2009 12:52 pm Dymo there are interest free green loans for just this reason... So because someone could/can afford it means you shouldn't be for it? I don't get your logic, washing machines were an invention not everyone could afford... Now you have to go to a laundromat if you don't own one But what ever, I would prefer to support what I think will be a growth industry So that gas and coal can stay in the ground like it should Somewhat B.O.T., But the houses on the program were not huge this time onc_artisan Where you are coming from is where you are going to... Re: New Program on ABC1 48Aug 21, 2009 5:16 pm onc_artisan Dymo there are interest free green loans for just this reason... So because someone could/can afford it means you shouldn't be for it? I guess when people say they want the government to 'take care' they think that is the end of it. They assume the government has infinite resources. Our schools need more funding, our hospital are falling apart.....You fix it. But all of this takes money and the government's income is effectively our taxes. No free lunches. I want to secure our state's energy supply for the future. I do support the technology. So....... I am willing to pay an energy levy for the capital cost of a commercial installation of green power so we can all share the benefits for this state. I want to see the maximum return energy return for this investment in both cost and materials. Therefore, I would like someone with more expertise than me (e.g. a utility company) to work out where the best place will be to put this power station to generate electricity at the lowest cost per kWh. I can assure you that the semi-rural districtthat I live in will be the worst place to put it. Not because I am a NIMBY but because it is too cloudy. PS perhaps home energy generation will be as accessible as washing machines, DVD players and TVs. But I am not holding my breath. Maybe I lack vision or perhaps I don't think we are that clever yet. Re: New Program on ABC1 49Aug 21, 2009 8:34 pm Quote: I am willing to pay an energy levy for the capital cost of a commercial installation of green power so we can all share the benefits for this state Do you pay the levy already Dymo? Most providers charge a little extra for renewable energy. The extra pays for the construction and maintenance of wind farms and the like. Correct me if I'm wrong but are you argueing that everyone should pay the levy rather than install household PV systems because not everyone can afford a PV system. I think it would take more than a levy to turn all our electricity production to renewable sources. Or it would take a levy so grand it would punish the poorer families. If we pour our resources into a private company, even if it managed to provide clean energy it would cost us a little control over our own affair. History is filled with dictators who took small liberties for the greater good until they had amassed significant power. Gravity. Its the law. At lock-up stage(lock-up stage) https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25438 Re: New Program on ABC1 50Aug 21, 2009 10:04 pm trepidman Quote: I am willing to pay an energy levy for the capital cost of a commercial installation of green power so we can all share the benefits for this state would take a levy so grand it would punish the poorer families. If we pour our resources into a private company, even if it managed to provide clean energy it would cost us a little control over our own affair. History is filled with dictators who took small liberties for the greater good until they had amassed significant power. I have no intention of punishing the poorer familes but the current arrangement of private installations will. The people who buy the PV systems have money to spare. Low income, single families, students and retirees can't afford it. Will we install enough systems to reduce utility demand and keep eneergy costs down for the poor? What happens when the rebate money runs out? I look at the 30% private health rebate and our public hospital system is still in disarray. I suspect the same will happen with electricity. I am under no illusion that commercial green power to run our country is going to take big bucks. Far more than a few token PV installations and govt rebates. Who is going to pay? Like taxes and the Medicare levy, the greatest contribution will be from the wealthy end of town and should come from industry who use the most energy. Time to ramp it up. Re: New Program on ABC1 51Aug 21, 2009 11:50 pm trepidman eight star three bedroom home with a 1.5 KW PV system, intelligently managed would break even with the power company. Imagine if all new estates jumped on the bandwagon with recycled water and group discounts for PV systems, as well as including the PV system as part of a home loan. The extra repayments on a loan would be offset by lower bills and the value of your home would be that much more. Environmentalism becomes economics so even the cynics jump on board. At 7.5 stars a 1.5 kW system is doable but would need on-site storage capacity. Summer insolation is generally around 3x winter insolation. First job is to reduce usage. That is an easier and cheaper solution. I have done the math based on the ABS statistics on household energy consumption. To have our households totally on solar would require 33m2 of panels for each of the 8.5 million houses in this country i.e. 3.3 kWh system per house. I think there is a growing eco-consciousness but most people are naive about the choices. Last year, friends of our installed a 1.5kW system before they even insulated their house. Which choice do you think would have saved more energy? Re: New Program on ABC1 52Aug 22, 2009 12:28 am Quote: Like taxes and the Medicare levy, the greatest contribution will be from the wealthy end of town and should come from industry who use the most energy I agree, I think the ETS, if it ever passes, is a step towards this. I wonder if the hospital and renewable energy sectors are a good comparison. The human body is too complex for the mass production of surgery. I don't think it's possible to bring down the cost of the hospital system. However, PV in particular can benefit from a mass take up of the technology. Doesn't your math on the amount of solar panels required for every home show that a combination approach is needed. A single large scale PV power plant or wind farm would take up too much space to handle the entire grid. And I have to admit just having homes with PV plants and insulation at best would cover their own energy usage not the usage of older homes and wouldn't make a dent in the usage of industry. BTW thanks for the maths on a break even home. I was going to ask someone how close my home could get to break even. If you have the time let me know why you listed electricity storage. I understand a home owner would have to pay the provider in the colder months but make that up in Summer(financially). In terms of the environment surely it's just as good to provide your neighbour with power, reducing their drain on a coal power station Gravity. Its the law. At lock-up stage(lock-up stage) https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25438 Re: New Program on ABC1 53Aug 22, 2009 12:03 pm trepidman Quote: Like taxes and the Medicare levy, the greatest contribution will be from the wealthy end of town and should come from industry who use the most energy However, PV in particular can benefit from a mass take up of the technology. But do we even know what technology we should be using? Solar cell research is evolving rapidly. Newer generation cells require less material and embodied energy for a product that still has an average 30 year life-cycle. This translates to reduce costs and commercially competitive $/watt. Production systems can be simplified Currently we are still using first generation technology from the 80s. It would be a shame to have bought a Sony Betamax player just a few years before everybody was using VHS. Even worse now that we have Blu-Ray. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... 07%29d.png Re: New Program on ABC1 54Aug 22, 2009 12:47 pm Quote: It would be a shame to have bought a Sony Betamax player just a few years before everybody was using VHS Many people did by Beta becasue it was the best techniology - but a good case of better mmarketing and lowercosts - VHS won the vote. Yet TV stations used beta for a decade due to it's superior design. re PV design I think it's got lots of improvment to do yet, and I personally think the govt would be better off spending PV rebate funds on actually enforcing better more energy efficient house and suburb layouts - enforce natural light, thermally comfortable etc, than putting it into PV rebates - which gets spent on PV's made O/S now that our own plant has shut down. My 2 cents from a 3kw/day electricty energy house with lots of glass and natural light. Yes I have a wood heater and gas as well, so the figures are more than that in real terms. Steve Re: New Program on ABC1 55Aug 22, 2009 2:19 pm Quote: It would be a shame to have bought a Sony Betamax player just a few years before everybody was using VHS. Even worse now that we have Blu-Ray. Cmon Dymo you're too smart to think betamax vs VHS is a good analogy for competing solar technologies. PC vs Mac might be better because one doesn't make the other obsolete. The worst case scenario is you have a PV system that does what you paid for. Your neighbour might have a better one but they waited longer or paid more for the privilege. Competing technologies = pressure on pricing. Some companies will aim for the very best and the top of the market(Apple Mac), others will aim for affordable, less efficient but a larger share of the market(IBM clone). It could be the rich get richer by feeding into the grid, but at least the poor don't get poorer. If we put all our eggs into one basket(technology) we give one company a monopoly. Gravity. Its the law. At lock-up stage(lock-up stage) https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25438 Re: New Program on ABC1 56Aug 22, 2009 4:45 pm trepidman Competing technologies = pressure on pricing. Some companies will aim for the very best and the top of the market(Apple Mac), others will aim for affordable, less efficient but a larger share of the market(IBM clone). If we put all our eggs into one basket(technology) we give one company a monopoly. What happens if we are talking about crystalline technology ($5-10/watt) versus thin film or Sliver technology (potentially < $1/watt). The cost to the consumer is an important factor determining which technology will take market share. One estimate of energy prices for solar is that it will be at least 2.5x more than from conventional sources. This article discusses the complexity of such calculations. http://www.solar.udel.edu/pdf/FAQListfo ... ellsv2.pdf Re: New Program on ABC1 57Aug 22, 2009 6:52 pm Quote: What happens if we are talking about crystalline technology ($5-10/watt) versus thin film or Sliver technology (potentially < $1/watt). The cost to the consumer is an important factor determining which technology will take market share. I'm not sure if you're asking a question or making a statement. If it's a statement, I concur. The open marketplace will sort out crystalline vs thin film or sliver. If they are vastly superior products crystalline gets superseded. Thin film vs sliver?. My crystalline PV will still do the job, I don't need to worry about it. It isn't like beta vs VHS or PC vs Mac. Their differences were small. If one company comes up with a vastly superior product they will own the market, it's not ideal but s**t happens. Discussing this with you has been educational Dymo but I'm going to bow out of this thread. I have many questions on other threads and not as much time as I'd like. I've enjoyed talking to you mate. Cheers, Trepidman Gravity. Its the law. At lock-up stage(lock-up stage) https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25438 Re: New Program on ABC1 58Aug 25, 2009 5:53 pm trepidman A single large scale PV power plant or wind farm would take up too much space to handle the entire grid. It would take a facility of 15km x 15km of solar panels to account for residential energy use. They are currently experimenting with a small solar facility in Woomera which has about 15% more sunshine than Adelaide. Woomera is just under 500km from Adelaide. We don't need one plant for the whole of Australia. There are probably a number of sites around each capital city suitable for power generation. The advantage is: 1) Every panel is situated for maximal performance and predictability of performance 2) They are co-located for ease of maintenance and minimal downtime 4) More efficient control over power distribution and adjusting power generation 3) Better insurance against losses 4) The economies of scale The current network is a higgle-piggledy collection of on and off-the-grid domestic system with variable locations, installations and age. The apparent 'savings' may actually hide glaring problems with inefficient energy use. A person needs to be licensed to offer financial advice. Surely the accountant you use would have been chosen for his/her expertise in this field. 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