Browse Forums Eco Living Page 1 of 1 17 replies Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member 1 Feb 23, 2014 2:09 am It's been educational and enlightening reading all the issues and complications re various systems for Rainwater Harvesting. It also seems that there are many products invented to deal with particular aspects, but the big question is which of them are beneficial. As most of the topics have dealt with Charged wet systems, I thought maybe this post could be a starter to gauge whether an Uncharged System could or could not work in my building project. It does seem to me to be an inherently cleaner and simpler setup, perfect for a simple person like me. I don't like complexities, any more!!! If it all looks to be complex, then I'll easily switch, and go wet. There are so many other matters that also have to be sorted in the planning stages that, as much as I'd like it, I may take the path of least resistance! Disclaimer or Caveat.... A whole of house build, and pretty tight on budget, so no guarantees the whole thing will go ahead until all the sums are added up. There's still work to do on the levels and profiles, so only the major parts are shown to show the limitations regarding siting of units. The Setbacks have complicated and cramped available positions for Tanks etc. While I think they comply with EPA and other regs, it might be that other conditions are placed on the layout, via Council or the Water Authority. I hope I have all the stats required. NE Victoria, average rainfall, 900mm. Tankulator, ARI & BOM historical (till 1966) all on charts included here. ARI 143 mm/hr Mean Annual Rainfall (1897-1969) 905mm J 44.8 F 47.8 M 60.1 A 61.3 M 84.3 J 104.1 J 106.5 A 102.0 S 83.2 O 91.0 N 59.6 D 60.1 http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_082034.shtml (closed 1966) http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/ncc/cdio/weatherData/av?p_nccObsCode=139&p_display_type=dataFile&p_startYear=&p_c=-1348477452&p_stn_num=082112 ( closest Open Station in this microclimate area ) Roof Areas (.9) (cantilever not determined yet.. .5m included) 160m2 5º skillion 18m gutter on South 120kl 85m2 5º skillion 10m gutter on West 68kl 50m2 5º skillion 6m gutter on East 40kl Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share Plan. A slightly complex site & a few restrictions on siting, so most of it on display. Tank positions are nominal, and nothing in concrete yet, same for AWTS, but it is close to Bathrooms. Excavations on North and South haven't been locked, so some flexibility there. Tank on the South Side is nominally at the junction where E-W 18m house gutter @ 2350 (app) intersects near the workshop 10m gutter @ 4400. Garage gutter @ 2400 is on the East, to fee the CFA 10kl bottom of the 25kl tank uphill. Anticipating the noted ugliness of uncharged systems, most guttering was taken to the South side, except garage, which hopefully can feed the CFA tank. No choices made yet on Tank sizing, but somewhat confused by the Tankulator notes, even though the graph and stats showed full, and some overflow, it recommended looking at a smaller tank. I went down to a 10kl, and got the same message. The CFA+house tank is shown 500mm high above ground, but there will be massive fill available from the excavation.. Until doing the Elevations, I had thought the Garage at least could go direct to Tank B, but it seems not. Looking at the CFA Regulations, I think they only need to get access to the Supply, eg via pipe and their BSA Fittings, so not necessarily the tank itself. Trees all around, but 60+ metres away. I'm not fussed over exposed pipes, but in a BAL area any exposed will have to conform to regs. Usage. Normally, 150 l/day, sometimes 2 staying, rarely more. Site ( 1 acre ) only natural grass now, no vegetation otherwise. I've seen the "model" 4 tank configuration, but don't think I can extend to that. viewtopic.php?f=35&t=60317 Town Supply is available, so I have the option to go mixed Town & Tank, their estimates are an average $850p bill. Very new here, so no bills in as yet in my rental. If there was a chance that this would provide all my requirements, I'd consider going "off grid"water, adding a header tank as an additional component. Gear all notional, subject to advice 2 metal tanks, up to 25kl each Half Round or Smoothline gutters. BAL 2mm metal mesh ember guards Header Tank Pump A to B Pump Garage to B if Town Supply, manual changeover Water level gauge/meters cistern tweaks as mentioned in posts Waterboys Downpipes x CFA fittings (100mm - 200mm up ) SuperDiverta GutterPumpers don't have the maths to work out if I go standalone what pressure to expect, and if special requirements for taps and other fittings would be need if not mains pressure. This is, as mentioned at the top all part of a complete start to finish house. Even worse, as a no longer young novice OB, on a big learning curve. I'll admit to having read a lot, but, with the overload of other parts to the project, not having retained or comprehended enough to go this part alone. Look forward to the pros and cons of dry systems. Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,280 VIC Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 2Feb 23, 2014 10:33 am Hi tezzab, tezzab Roof Areas (.9) (cantilever not determined yet.. .5m included) 160m2 5º skillion 18m gutter on South 120kl 85m2 5º skillion 10m gutter on West 68kl 50m2 5º skillion 6m gutter on East 40kl .9 yield is possible for your climate and rainfall pattern. What annual rainfall did you reference to get the above figures? 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,280 VIC Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 4Feb 23, 2014 12:31 pm The yield I get with the BOM 905 mm/yr is a bit different but it doesn't make any difference anyway because of the excess harvest. I will use your annual yield figures. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,280 VIC Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 6Feb 24, 2014 11:02 pm I’m going to restrict most initial observations (and questions) to the large tank (B). Most other things are fairly straight forward. The water will not drain to tank B either by a wet or dry system because the bottom of the tank will be higher than the garage gutters. If tank B was located at the depicted site, the water would have to be pumped from a storage tank. It must be remembered that you only need to pump the water needed to replenish the tank. The average water yield harvested from the rooves will be over 4,000 litres per week whereas your usage will be a little over 1,000 litres per week. To pump to tank B, you would require two smaller storage tanks, one on the south side and one at the garage although you could run a wet system from the south tank A to the garage tank. The tank(s), excluding tank B, would be harvesting about 700 lpm during a 1:20 ARI. The overflow capacities would need to be equal to or greater than the inflow capacities. The overflow path will need to channel this flow, will there be a dam or similar? My thoughts... Tank B will not provide anywhere near enough head for the house supply. 1 metre = 9.8 kPa. You would have to supply the house either with a pump and possibly/probably a decent size pressure tank. A pressure tank will substantially reduce the number of pump start/stops and allow the pump to operate with greater efficiency. You do not need to harvest the entire roof area. The 50 sq m garage roof on its own will supply over 2/3rds of your daily requirements. If additional water needs to be harvested when needed, then this is easy to do. Constantly pumping water to tank B is unnecessary and supplying water from that tank to the house has little if any benefit. The fire fighting reserve capacity should be looked on as insurance...if there ever was a fire, you will be wishing that you had a bigger tank. What material does the tank’s feed valve and connecting pipes have to be made from? Possible considerations... Given that tank B provides the fire fighting reserve, would it be better to have it closer to the house? Will you also have your own diesel fire pump etc? Decide on a size for tank B with a house reserve compartment of possibly 10,000 litres (additional 2 months reserve). This will then effectively become an additional fire fighting reserve. Just fill and forget. Harvest the garage roof to a tank (if feasible) as this is closest to tank B. I say if feasible because I see the driveway. This isn’t a priority however as the tank’s location to other house services could have priority. Having two tanks (at the garage or elsewhere) will give you a dry system and a settling system. The pump would draw from the second tank to supply the house. Compare the cost of two smaller tanks rather than one larger one at the house. A spare downpipe can be harvested by a Supadiverta whenever additional supply is needed. This can be done automatically without supplying water to the tank once the tank fills, thereby not compromising the tank's overflow capacity during heavy rain. Because you have regular rainfall, you do not need a large storage capacity at the house plus you would have tank B to fall back on. Re the $850 bill for town supply water, would you still have to pay a (large) proportion of this if you don’t connect? Having a pump with a soft start variable speed drive would also be good if you go off grid. You could still have a pressure tank to further reduce the pump’s start/stops or go without. A pump like this is expensive. Check what Grundfos has to offer. If you get a good pump, it will be efficient and use less energy. I was at a house last week that had a pressure tank and a Davey pump that was run by this device... http://www.dgflow.it/products/variable- ... phase-pump There is also the option of having a cheaper pump with a good warranty and a pressure tank. That option gives you a pump that will have an easy life. I would also have a manual pressure switch in preference to an electronic pressure switch these days. The hot weather plays havoc with the electronic ones. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Last edited by SaveH2O on Jul 21, 2014 12:10 pm.
Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 7Feb 25, 2014 1:11 am First up, thanks for what's a very comprehensive insight into the system, very extensive. That also means I've got a lot to digest, and for me, getting the words into sketches and plans. 2D is ok, but this is a jump up to 3D.. With no real use in having Tank B at that elevation, I can find another more useful spot. CFA Regulations, excerpt only below, only refer to the Supply Outlet in terms of it facing away from the building if under 20metres. They don't want to get burnt while hooking up water. If budget still allows, there will be a diesel fire pump. As fire risks go, BAL 12.5 is at the low end, and no vegetation save for grass which will be kept very low. So, it's possible Tank B could go on the NE corner of the Garage, as a standalone for CFA use, or extra top up for the vegetation. 20 Klitres, if going your other option of 2 tanks for house. Tank connections to CFA Spec. http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/fm_files/attachments/plan_and_prepare/tank-connects-explained-bmo.pdf As the South side guttering is "fixed"and all plumbing is there as well, and a tad of aesthetics tossed in, could the 2-tank system proposed work if placed around Tank A's current spot? I'll look at the 2 tank option cost wise, maybe 2 x 15 ? Must check with the Water Authority if I have to pay without being tapped. I'd prefer the lesser cost of Pressure Tank and pump, Off Grid would be a $20k extra on top of an $11k 4.5Kw PV setup. With 40º+ days often up here, manual sounds fine. I'll definitely need time to let this sink in, but great help already. part of CFA requirements The water supply must be stored in an above ground water tank constructed of concrete, steel or corrugated iron. The water supply must be located within 60 metres of the outer edge of the building (including any obstructions). The water supply outlet/s must be fixed to the water tank. All pipework between the water supply and the outlet/s must be 64 millimetres (minimum) nominal bore (see Figure 21 overleaf). All fixed above-ground water pipelines and fittings must be of non-corrodible and non-combustible materials. Where CFA access and coupling are specified by Table 4 the water supply must: • Be located so that fire brigade vehicles are able to get to within 4 metres of the water supply outlet and the outlet must face away from the building if located less than 20 metres from the building to enable access during emergencies. • Incorporate an additional 64 millimetres (minimum) gate or ball valve and 64 millimetres (fixed size), 3 threads per inch, male fitting to suit a CFA coupling. • Incorporate a vortex inhibitor or additional water must be provided to ensure that the volume of water available is not restricted by a vortex. Refer to Section 5 of AS.2419 for requirements for vortex inhibitors. • The water supply outlet must incorporate a ball or gate valve to provide access to the water by the resident of the dwelling. • All below-ground water pipelines must be installed to at least the following depths: - subject to vehicle traffic: 300 millimetres - under dwellings or concrete slabs: 75 millimetres - all other locations: 225 millimetres • The water supply must be readily identifiable Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,280 VIC Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 8Feb 25, 2014 9:57 am tezzab So, it's possible Tank B could go on the NE corner of the Garage, as a standalone for CFA use, or extra top up for the vegetation. 20 Klitres, if going your other option of 2 tanks for house. That allows super quick CFA access plus it gives you your dry system and a nice elevation to supply tank A. As tank B would then have a constant supply from the garage, you can now use tank B as a settling tank to manually deliver decanted water to tank A. The Tank B supply valve to tank A would need to be fitted higher up on the tank's wall or (preferably) an internal hose with a float like the WaterBoy used with a lower valve. Obviously you will not have a WaterBoy on the CFA outlet. Query. On the house sketch, the dark arrow on the garage is pointing East and I took this to indicate the roof slope but the other sketch shows that the slope is to the West. tezzab As the South side guttering is "fixed"and all plumbing is there as well, and a tad of aesthetics tossed in, could the 2-tank system proposed work if placed around Tank A's current spot? I'll look at the 2 tank option cost wise, maybe 2 x 15 ? The 2 tank system was suggested as a settling tank system. With the garage now supplying tank B that will also supply most of the water needs to tank A, just have one other tank unless size and aesthetics come into play. The trick is to now deliver good quality water to tank A. You need to harvest the garage plus one other downpipe (subject to roof area harvested) and the other downpipe would need to be within 2.5 metres of the tank's top inlet. There is also the issue of initially filling Tank B. The house would be supplying water to the tanks prior to occupancy but it would be good to also have an additional downpipe 'in reserve' to supply additional water when required. The Supadiverta can do this without compromising the tank's overflow capacity but you need to check the fire zone building code as it is made from (food grade) Acrylonitrile Styrene Acrylate (ASA) and is fitted to the downpipe. http://plastics.ides.com/generics/8/acr ... rylate-asa As most country properties have wet systems that use uPVC stormwater downpipes, it would probably be ok but you need to check. As an aside, most uPVC stormwater pipe is not certified to AS4020. http://www.awqc.com.au/AWQC/AS4020/PToverview.htm tezzab All fixed above-ground water pipelines and fittings must be of non-corrodible and non-combustible materials. What do they propose the outlet pipes are made from? tezzab • Incorporate a vortex inhibitor or additional water must be provided to ensure that the volume of water available is not restricted by a vortex. Refer to Section 5 of AS.2419 for requirements for vortex inhibitors. Otherwise known as an anti vortex baffle. Check with the tank company as they probably supply them. The CFA outlet also needs to be fitted near the bottom as they would be drawing any sediment anyway. The suction vortex is something that most people do not take into account when ordering tanks. Whether there is a submersible pump or the pump is external, the pump needs to have (preferably) 300 mm head to avoid drawing a vortex. This means that tall tanks have a lower % of 'unusable' water than shorter tanks. This is also why many tanks are fitted with the pump's draw outlet fitted on the bottom of the tank but this also draws the worst quality water and the immediate sediment layer. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Last edited by SaveH2O on Feb 25, 2014 10:55 am.
Reply Reply Like Share More 20 Nov 2013 1,661 Jimboomba Woods, Queensland Gold Member Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 9Feb 25, 2014 10:53 am SaveH2O Having a pump with a soft start variable speed drive would also be good if you go off grid. You could still have a pressure tank to further reduce the pump’s start/stops or go without. A pump like this is expensive. Check what Grundfos has to offer. If you get a good pump, it will be efficient and use less energy. I was at a house last week that had a pressure tank and a Davey pump that was run by this device... http://www.dgflow.it/products/variable- ... phase-pump There is also the option of having a cheaper pump with a good warranty and a pressure tank. That option gives you a pump that will have an easy life. I would also have a manual pressure switch in preference to an electronic pressure switch these days. The hot weather plays havoc with the electronic ones. This all looks interesting to me, as our new house is only on 'trickle feed' i.e. we have the 31500 litre tank that is fed by mains water through a maric valve, that only allows tank topups @ around 1 litre per minute. So basically we have to buy a water pump to supply water to the house. Just like the OP, we're looking at eventually going offgrid for our power, so your post comes along at a good time for us, as we are yet to decide upon a water pump to hook up between the house and the tank. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,280 VIC Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 10Feb 25, 2014 11:19 am bpratt This all looks interesting to me, as our new house is only on 'trickle feed' i.e. we have the 31500 litre tank that is fed by mains water through a maric valve, that only allows tank topups @ around 1 litre per minute. So basically we have to buy a water pump to supply water to the house. Just like the OP, we're looking at eventually going off grid for our power, so your post comes along at a good time for us, as we are yet to decide upon a water pump to hook up between the house and the tank. I throw a few things in as there are a lot of others who read the threads and they all have different situations. The soft start protects the pump just as a pressure tank also absorbs 'hammer', great for the washing machine solenoids. Probably the best value pump around is the new AL-KO Jet 3500. Jet pumps have better suction but some pumping efficiency is compromised to do this. It is $119 + delivery and has a 2 year warranty. It is also 850 W but if you buy a manual pressure switch and a decent size pressure tank to reduce the cycles, the pump will have an easy life and operate at peak efficiency. https://www.alkogarden.com.au/products/JET%203500 https://www.alkogarden.com.au/categorie ... cessories/ 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 11Feb 25, 2014 12:43 pm I'll have to spend a little time in finding out about a few critical factors from CFA over the next day or so. This in relation to the tank and whether fittings for them must be actually on the tank itself. But their other requirement for non corroding and non combustible pipelines and fittings seems to counter that in saying pipes can be run. Will return with that, and have time to contemplate the other scenarios of your post. Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,280 VIC Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 12Feb 25, 2014 3:27 pm There are regulations and then there is reality. If you trenched a small pipe to manually transfer water from tank B to tank A, you would have a flexible coupling between the pipe and the valve. When you finished, you would close the valves and sometimes drain the pipe. If you were in the habit of leaving the valves open, you would soon shut them if a bush fire was bearing down. I would ask them about the 65 mm valve as later on you might want to run a pipe somewhere to connect to drip hoses etc but I wouldn't bother asking about a transfer pipe. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 13Feb 25, 2014 8:39 pm Vortex's I understand a little, courtesy of some video demos !! Getting Videos of head was more problematic Head is basically understood, though there are so many definitions out there it's done my head in. So 300mm head means 300mm of water above the outlet ? Or that the outlet must be 300mm above the tank bottom ? I may need a 101 link on this. External pumps seem preferable in case of servicing, and you can physically check and repair. I presume submersibles that need work means dumping water. I do know of the issues in pickup of lower levels from tanks and picking up as well as stirring up sediment, but good reinforcement of that principle. CFA wouldn't mind too much if their outlet was at 100mm above bottom layer?? They won't pump from Dams due to sediment issues, normally. As we mentioned CFA, the chat today was easy and fruitful, and opens up more options. [list=]Tank can be anywhere, no requirement for the fittings directly attached The Supply point must be within 60 metres of house. No problems doing that Their Trucks stop 20metres shy of the house, so they don't get radiant heat. No combustible pipe excludes PVC etc that directly provides them with water. Non corrosive, ditto but means Gal Pipes Copper is OK, as is concrete, or if you won Lotto, Stainless Steel CFA aren't concerned about water collection, mainly there firefighting supply Gutters etc come under AS3959, see further detail below on legal way for a free download copy. . All guttering will be metal, pvc not permitted under AS3959-2009 from what I can see. Smoothline or Half Round has been a suggestion as it self cleans more than other profiles. It all must have 2mm Metal Ember Mesh as per AS3959, so getting in to clean will be tedious. [/list] Given the above, I did a revised, and simpler sketch so other sitings might be looked at and scrutinised. Another starting point maybe. a few points that explain why... Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Share
Tank B now out of sight Both tanks now on South Side, away from Sun pipe run out to CFA 20m radius w/ fittings per regs A redundant gutter system if one fails, not easy at Garage Tank B spot All Plumbing is on the South side. The AWTS position is not yet fixed, but needs a Setback of 3m from any water pipes confusion .. Header Tank or Pressure Tank, one or both require Pump for adequate pressure to house Where to locate? . Flexibility of siting. Along X-Y or even Z. My understanding is that for a Dry system, the tank must be close to the house. If the Tank was further away, given the height of the workshop gutter could a pipe feed overhead to the Tank? No Earthworks yet, so quite easily have some height for any tank on natural ground level, eg a tank could be placed almost 2m above house floor level if near Y, but, it would have to be 3m away from the wall. The workshop gutter is 4200mm high. The house gutter, app 2350mm high other trivial points. Not a bush block, but an edge of town Low Density Residential Zone (under) development Mostly 1 Acre, but backing onto standard size ones on the established road. AS3959-2009 Not often can you get Australian Standards docs for zero $. But, when it's presented to a Royal Commission, all that changes. Note though the Amendments (free) require an Account setup at SAI Global. free. If you're building in a Bushfire Management Overlay area (a.k.a. a bush block), you'll read a lot about the need for site assessment and building design according to Australian Standard 3595, known as AS 3959-2009 Construction of buildings in bushfire-prone areas. Many resources on the web will direct you to the SAI Global website, which leads you to believe that only way to view it is for you to pay $108 to download. Not many public libraries hold it either. However, it can in fact be got free (and completely legally) from the 2009 Victorian Bushfires Royal Commission website. The pdf download link is: http://www.royalcommission.vic.gov.au/g ... 58ec8a78a/ However, this is the 2009 edition without the three necessary later amendments that you also need. More good news, you can download the three amendments for free from SAI Global website (a paywall website that sells standards). You will have to register and create a user profile on their website,https://infostore.saiglobal.com/store/UserAdmin.aspx?NewUser=1&url=Details.aspx%25+3fProductID%25+3d1452021 You can then get the amendments: Amendment 1 http://infostore.saiglobal.com/store/De ... ID=1358835 Amendment 2 http://infostore.saiglobal.com/store/De ... ID=1452021 Amendment 3 http://infostore.saiglobal.com/store/De ... ID=1497733 AS 3959-2009 downpipes I think the Supadiverta is safe to install. 5.6.7 This Standard does not provide material requirements for- (a) gutters, with the-exception of box gutters; and (b) downpipes If installed, gutter and valley leaf guards shall be non-combustible. Box gutters shall be non-combustible and flashed at the junction with the roof with noncombustible material. Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,280 VIC Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 14Feb 26, 2014 2:34 pm tezzab So 300mm head means 300mm of water above the outlet ? Or that the outlet must be 300mm above the tank bottom? I do know of the issues in pickup of lower levels from tanks and picking up as well as stirring up sediment, but good reinforcement of that principle. CFA wouldn't mind too much if their outlet was at 100mm above bottom layer?? They won't pump from Dams due to sediment issues, normally. Above the top of the outlet. The vortex generated depends on the outlet size and the suction flow rate. If designed properly, your tanks will have minimal sediment but drawing tank sediment wouldn't be a problem for a CFA pump. The requirement for a vortex plate allows access to more water and having a low outlet does the same. As you would only use the CFA valve for outside use, having it low is wise. The water transferred to the house tank should be drawn from well above the anaerobic zone by a separate valve or Waterboy. tezzab External pumps seem preferable in case of servicing, and you can physically check and repair. I presume submersibles that need work means dumping water. To access a submersible pump, you simply disconnect a pipe and pull it up by the remaining connected pipe but yes, external pumps are easier to service. Most manufacturers have a condition of warranty that a submersible pump must be located above the sediment layer. A submersible pump that sits on the tank's floor will vacuum the floor and this is why MOST people who have submersible pumps have blocked washing machine filters, dirty cisterns but not much tank sediment. MOST submersible pumps are also located directly under the tank's top meshed inlet and when it rains, the falling water generates turbulence and sediment re-suspension! An installer/plumber with any nouse would install a calming inlet to the inflow pipe when a submersible pump is used but few do. The link below is to Brian Bashworth's excellent blog and it shows his inexpensive DIY calming inlet design. http://www.anewhouse.com.au/2012/11/rai ... rovements/ tezzab Smoothline or Half Round has been a suggestion as it self cleans more than other profiles. Half round gutters are the most efficient but aesthetically not suited to all houses. tezzab It all must have 2mm Metal Ember Mesh as per AS3959, so getting in to clean will be tedious. This standard fails to recognise (and effectively bans) new technology that offers far superior bush fire protection. tezzab confusion .. Header Tank or Pressure Tank, one or both require Pump for adequate pressure to house Where to locate? 1 metre of hydraulic head = 9.8 kPa (1.42 psi). A header tank in the roof space might offer 3 m head (29.4 kPa) whereas a pressure tank set at let's say 28 psi (193 kPa) will be much better servicing modern washing machine solenoids and dishwashers. Pumps have even greater head. A large pressure tank can be located away from the pump. The pump starts filling the pressure tank before it runs out of water and a cut in pressure of 30 psi is typical. A pressure switch will typically be set at 30/50 psi cut in/cut out and mechanical switches can be adjusted. The house I mentioned in an earlier post had the tank pressure set at 45 psi. More pressure = less pressure fluctuation but less draw down. A word of caution: If the water is for potable use, make sure that the pressure tank is certified for potable use. Not all are. There was one make sold on ebay a few years ago that were advertised as suitable for household use but they had a non potable bladder that tainted the water with a bad taste. tezzab My understanding is that for a Dry system, the tank must be close to the house. If the Tank was further away, given the height of the workshop gutter could a pipe feed overhead to the Tank? 2.5 metres is the recommended maximum length of an unsupported uPVC pipe. tezzab I did a revised, and simpler sketch so other sitings might be looked at and scrutinised. I will give an overview of the basic principles of good design and the limitations so that you can work through it for your situation. The aim is to supply an excess requirement of good quality water to the tanks and supply the house with the best quality water from the house supply tank. The tanks heights and positions are dependent on the gutter height and any downpipe fittings such as leaf diverters that reduce the available head. Just about all existing wet systems are bad news because they are badly designed. The main problem is that the vertical riser that transfers water from an underground transfer pipe to the tank's top meshed inlet has insufficient flushing velocity to flush the wet system pipes to the tank. This allows detritus to accumulate in the pipes and this in time can block the pipes and/or cause the water to become stagnant. Stagnation is caused by bacteria breaking down organic matter, a process that depletes the water of oxygen. Water retained in pipes cannot breathe, unlike tank water which can. A tank's negatively charged sediment layer also locks away positive charged metals. If the water does not have a nutrient source, the bacteria will die. A well designed wet system will deliver cleaner water to the tank than a dry system will. This is easy and inexpensive to do. Your total roof area is 295 sq m and the 1:20 ARI is 143 mm/hr which is an average rainfall intensity of 2.383 mm per minute over a 5 minute duration. This equates to just over 700 mm/minute falling on the roof during a 1:20 ARI. A tank's overflow pipe capacity has to be able to handle the inflow. The overflow will also have a meshed outlet but this can be fouled with the fine debris that floats on top of the water. The mesh should be able to be reached from the top of the tank for cleaning but this need is often overlooked. 1 mm aperture mosquito proof metal mesh typically has an aperture open area of between 26% and 34%. This also restricts the flow but few installers know this. If a tank has a large inflow capacity during a storm, the TankVac overflow system should be considered. This is a delayed action syphonic overflow system that also vacuums the tank's floor through an 80 mm DWV overflow pipe at 9 lps (about 540 lpm). http://www.tankvac.com.au/ The 50 sq m garage has a 4.8 m high gutter. This will supply a tall tank and have the available head to fit leaf diverters. It will be easier to harvest this gutter sooner rather than later but if the tanks are on the south side, it will require a wet system. Other gutters are 2.35 m high. If using leaf diverters, you will be restricted to dry feeding to a tank about 1.8 m high. Having a lower tank supply the house is not a problem and this would harvest its own downpipe with another in reserve. Re leaf diverters, you will have gutter mesh with 2 mm apertures but leaf diverters have apertures that are less than 1 mm. If you feed directly into a tank, you will need sealed mosquito proof leaf diverters. A word about sediment traps. A wet system sediment trap is way more effective at trapping bed load than an open first flush diverter fitted to a dry system pipe. Why? Well, the wet pipe is full of water and the bed load in a non turbulent section of pipe travels much slower than the water. Water also travels through a pipe in boundary layers or streamlines, as such, it travels fastest through the core. What this means is that when the bed load reaches a bottom opening in the pipe, it will fall down with little disturbance. Bed load in a wet system doesn't travel uniformly along the pipe. the detritus actually forms into numerous long individual 'colonies' that remain still. When a colony upstream discharges a small amount of detritus from the front, it 'runs' along in a convoy manner to the next colony. As soon as it attaches to the rear of the downstream colony, a similar amount breaks away from the front and travels to the next colony and so on. It's like watching a relay! Water travelling along a dry system pipe travels much faster along the bottom surface and there will be little or no bed load, just suspended material. Some will drop down an open hole but most will flow over it. AS2200 states that 90 mm (nominal) pipes must not carry more than 360 lpm. This is a maximum 'factored' roof area drained in your region of 151 sq m. Just check this on your plans when you next look at them. The factoring (roof area multiplier) is done to determine the effect of the roof slope on wind driven rain. The post below has a good reference to roof area factoring and AS2200 compliance. viewtopic.php?p=1111630#p1111630 I wouldn't use flimsy 90 mm (OD) PVC stormwater pipe. You need to check whether the proposed pipe running under the slab will be acceptable to the CFA and your permits. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 15Feb 26, 2014 10:41 pm Absolutely amazed at the information you are providing here. total appreciation... I've tried to get it in, and refreshed earlier threads and other sources. Quote: The requirement for a vortex plate allows access to more water and having a low outlet does the same. As you would only use the CFA valve for outside use, having it low is wise. The water transferred to the house tank should be drawn from well above the anaerobic zone by a separate valve or Waterboy. Vortex in this application now understood. Transfer to house tank. If a 20,000l tank, and keeping 10k for CFA, then 1/2 way up seems to fit with your recommendation, so may reserve WaterBoy for house tank. Quote: An installer/plumber with any nouse would install a calming inlet to the inflow pipe when a submersible pump is used but few do. Noted in the must have list. Quote: Half round gutters are the most efficient but aesthetically not suited to all houses. At the rear, except for Garage 8m length. Not in view of neighbours. capacity seems greater than Quad etc. Quote: This standard (AS3959) fails to recognise (and effectively bans) new technology that offers far superior bush fire protection. LeafSafe Guttering does look to inherently provide similar protection. There should be an avenue to have that, and other products, be able to be tested and approved as " an Alternative Solution" . I suspect though that the costs of testing would only suit volume companies. I've been told of building panels costing upwards of $20k for a single test. Pressure Tank, with a Pump ( on-demand ? ) seems the better way to go. I saw a Grundfos 100l for a bit over $300 last night. Potable use spec, for both Pressure and Water Tanks. Currently looking at AquaPlate, as these can be 3.5 dis, so 20,000l is just on 2m high. I may have misled in my sketch, on the elevation I " pencilled in " garage and broken line where it would be, as seen through the WorkShop. So garage is only 2.7m or so high. The gutter on the Workshop, drops from 4.8 to 4.2m on the West side. Area for Workshop is approx 85m2. If this alters your thoughts re a tank near garage, I've hopefully put together some possible system thoughts. It's likely I've gone off the track, but I'm always getting shot down, so it's not a problem. Primary collection. Workshop Roof Smoothline gutter (10m) 1 only down pipe @ SW corner 2mm Ember Mesh cover 100mm round or 150x50 metal down pipe Superdiverta - piped to Tank ( includes Mosquito filter ) ?? radical ?? Gutter Pumper - overflow protection CFA/Settling tank 3.5m dia 2m h Position 1m from wall, Elevation for optimum flow angle after Supadiverta & Gravity feed to house tank TankVac CFA fittings & Vortex Inhibitor Outlet to feed House Tank at 1100mm Extra outlet at 1100mm for Fire Pump House Tank (as per CFA) . at ground level distance from CFA tank tbc TankVac Inlet from CFA tank, back flow valve Waterboy system Pressure Pump & Tank Filtration for potable use House guttering as per workshop 2 downpipes gutter pumpers Reserve use if Workshop gutter failure Garage gutter Integrate into Site Drainage to pond area or a 10k poly garden tank CFA Tank pipe run along East of building to 20m radius. Buried to CFA specs. I'm sure I missed some things, and made a few blues, but with other reading I've done there's so many options and solutions. One publication I found was fairly easy to comprehend, good plain English. http://www.rdn.bc.ca/cms/wpattachments/wpID2430atID5059.pdf This one provides an alternative viewpoint to the WaterBoy method. http://www.harvesth2o.com/floatingfilter.shtml There is though no alternative to water. Reply Reply Like Share More 11 Aug 2011 4,280 VIC Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 16Mar 03, 2014 12:30 pm bpratt SaveH2O Having a pump with a soft start variable speed drive would also be good if you go off grid. You could still have a pressure tank to further reduce the pump’s start/stops or go without. A pump like this is expensive. Check what Grundfos has to offer. If you get a good pump, it will be efficient and use less energy. I was at a house last week that had a pressure tank and a Davey pump that was run by this device... http://www.dgflow.it/products/variable- ... phase-pump This all looks interesting to me.........we're looking at eventually going offgrid for our power, so your post comes along at a good time for us, as we are yet to decide upon a water pump to hook up between the house and the tank. The controller linked isn't just for off grid use. There is a less powerful version available that would be better suited to off grid use. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 17Mar 03, 2014 4:21 pm After a trip via G & a Wiki, I can see the value in adding a VSPC into the shopping list. with my budget I will never manage Off Grid, likely a max 6Kw Grid Connect. The other thread on roof gutters in Vic is also providing excellent info as well. I've diverged slightly in planning as I now have a Drainage Plan to decipher and cost. New terminologies also. Never seen a Letterbox in a pit before Amazingly, PVC Stormwater Pipes are specified for Stormwater. I'll watch the other thread to help compile and plan a system. Also in Vic, so obviously must go through a suitably qualified, and competent, professional expert to abide by regs. momentarily returning to subterranean matters..... Reply Reply Like Share More 08 Feb 2013 247 VIC Bronze Member Re: Uncharged Systems - a dry option 18Jul 20, 2014 5:41 pm This thread has been dormant for a while now, as circumstances have changed considerably. This was to be part of an OB build, but after a lot of consideration, the decision was made to abandon the project. Extended delays in engineering would have caused a loss of time over winter until the site dried out for Earthworks to be done. This was to be done by myself. The additional cost to hire a firm to do it prior to winter was too much for the budget. Additionally, other costs tended to be rising, funnily enough, to the point where the contingency amount was already being eaten into. Rather than continue with the thread, it was decided that SaveH2O could provide his valuable advice to other forum members, and not on a lost cause. I did buy a renovator's dream, elsewhere, and even though it was inspected prior, some dreams have shown become mini-nightmares after moving in and turning on the power. ( Vacant for over a year ) So, on another thread, http://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=72079 once more SaveH2O has come onboard to help deal with the unexpected issues of an " off grid " rainwater system, that has covered gutters to tanks, pumps and filters. Undeterred by the OB build, there is also a fair amount to come with other aspects of renovation, as an OB, that were evident before purchase, and taken into account when dealing with the agent. I did end up with benefits from the move, mostly in a view that $$ could not buy !! It took nearly 3 years to find the land that I was going to build on, and only 6 weeks for this one! Both with views, and Northern aspect. BTW, the land, 4550m2, is available, on the main real estate website, in Myrtleford. Reply Sign in or Join to reply to this Topic End
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