Browse Forums Home Theatre & Automation 1 Aug 29, 2014 12:57 am I'm building a new home in an NBN area, specifically purchased for the fact it's got NBN already (huzzah). As part of every step of every way in the process, I told the builder I needed NBN compliance. I needed them to install the NBN equipment in my location, and I wanted to install 10G networking and future proof my house with conduit between for all the data points so I can simply pull out one cable and put another in when I need to put fibre in later. It was written on my plans, "NBN Compliant run-in to home" and "NBN Run in to be provided to stairwell as request by client for all comms" and "All communication points on internal walls must be in conduit" and I was told that I would be able to do this. So the first alarm bells ring when the internal rendering is done before the conduit had even been installed - I rang up the supervisor and asked him if he wasn't meant to put in the conduit before rendering, and he admitted that he forget (hurray) and that it'd get sorted very soon. So then my wife gets a call the next day from the cabler asking why we don't have any TV points. She called me up and said he talked to her and she said it's because we are going to have NBN, so all of our TV will come via the data points, etc, and he seemed like he was a knowledgable chap, so she felt like we were in safe hands. Hence I decided against chasing him up - plus I was quite busy.. Anyway, long story short, the conduit was installed only to where the roof-space is accessible (which is in a bulkhead at the bottom of a air-con penetration - the cable is just hanging down the aircon duct). Theres a 90 degree bend at the bottom of the conduit coming out to where my rack will be installed, and 11 cat5e cables run into the conduit. A seperate tiny conduit which looks like about 18mm houses the 12th cable, presumably because there is not enough room left in the P35 to fit another cable. The conduit run-in from the PCD location is done with conduit marked "Telstra P20", has three 90 degree bends in it with an additional long sweeping bend and has flex-pipe at the PCD end. Presumably this is more than 270 degrees. I do not know where that flex-pipe is connected; presumably to the bottom of the pre-formed bend directly above the PCD... so a few metres? The pre-start lady and the electrical lady seemed to know all about the placement of NTD/PSU. I paid almost $3k for the 12 data points and said I wanted them left unterminated in the stairwell because I was going to patch it myself and more than likely replace the cables with fibre at some point. This means even less cost for them, because they don't have to terminate 12 cables, nor provide the termination equipment. All these things were written on my plan, but evidently they don't mean what I though & what I was given the impression they meant. The question is, what are the standards I should expect? Should I expect Cat6 cable, given that NBN-RUN-IN TO STAIRWALL REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS was written? NBN is high-speed stuff, you can't run it on Cat5e! Should I expect conduit to be run between all points? Or at least to an accessible location in the TOP roof - not to the crawlspace between levels (most of the points are on the top floor)? Should I expect to be given at least some additional space in conduit? The 11 cat5 cables take up over 90% of the space in the P35 pipe. I would never be able to use that conduit for anything else. Shouldn't conduit be installed with some kind of room left? Should I expect the NBN-compliant run in to be done without flex-pipe, as NBN specifically state that they require AS1477 compliant conduit? What leg have I to stand on, and how should I go about getting the things that I specifically wanted? Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 2Aug 29, 2014 3:09 am NBN plans currently max out at 100mb your home network will be a 1GB or 1000mb so plenty of headroom, down the road NBN may increase to 1gb. Cat 5e is capable of 1GB networking Cat 6 offers better shielding then 5e and for the small amount of cost difference would of been desirable. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 3Aug 29, 2014 8:12 am of course everyone likes to quote the maximum theoretical bandwidth NBN can provide, but in reality it will deliver far lower speeds as more homes/businesses come online and need to be serviced. At maximum throughput, cat5e/6 exceeds current nbn requirements by a factor of 10. I know of people who run their house with cat6 and then use an old cat5 cable from the wall to their pcs and still maintain full speed from their rsp. As for 'future proofing'.... will Australia ever get gigabit broadband...perhaps in the long distant future? In which case cat6 may become obsolete as better and more cost effective cabling becomes available,and perhaps even fibre running to each data point will become the norm. If you feel comfortable with paying that little more for cat6 then by all means do so, but will it be of any benefit now (or maybe even in 10 years).. most likely not. It would be far more prudent to ensure that whichever cabling you have installed, it should be made easy to replace by pulling through,and in most cases conduit is a wise choice for this very reason. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 4Aug 29, 2014 8:38 am How long are the cable runs? Did u query if Cat 5e or Cat6 will be run? I think you are worrying about nothing, if you are rich enough to afford 10G switching and running fibre all over your house, just rip it all out and do it post handover. Our new work building which serves 150+work stations, doesn't even have 10GB switching or fiber all over the place, we have fibre between the buildings but thats it... Can u explain why u actually need 10GB switching and Fiber? Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 5Aug 29, 2014 8:59 am Getting a builder to understand specifics of data cabling requirements is like banging your head against a wall for the most part. The trouble I had was like a comedy routine from an Abbott and Costello movie. As others have said, cat 5e is more than sufficient for NBN requirements. Like all technology, cabling standards are developing and changing. By the time cat 5e is no longer up to the job in a home environment, we will have progressed much further than cat 6 (which already has newer standards - 6e and 6a). Yes if possible it's always desirable to put in cat 6 - it does have less cross talk and can support longer cable runs - but all is not lost if you have cat 5e instead. And remember - ultimately your performance will be dependent on other factors - patch cables used, and what your hardware is capable of which comes down to hardware design and software overhead. Put in a cheap gigabit switch and you get poorer performance than an enterprise grade gigabit switch. Read/write performance from a NAS will be affected by CPU, memory, software, RAID configuration, disk type, single or double network ports and type of load balancing used and whether it is switch supported or not etc etc... As for speed of download via NBN, well, this isn't going to be a consideration for a long, long time. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 6Aug 29, 2014 11:29 am Bluesuede As for speed of download via NBN, well, this isn't going to be a consideration for a long, long time. Why not? There is no copper in my area, only NBN. I will be ordering, wholesale, 1000mbps on the day I move in. sogg Can u explain why u actually need 10GB switching and Fiber? Because I hate waiting for massive files to copy across SANs and WANs. Seriously, I'd rather wait 1-2 seconds for gigs to transfer than 1-2 minutes. If I change a DVD image, I have to transfer 4.6gb of information across my LAN. At 100mbps, this takes hours sometimes. At 1000mbps, minutes, but at 10G, it will be mere seconds, saving me countless hours. Is that sufficient? Also, "Because I want it" would work too. Can you explain why you actually need an ridiculous amount of power available in your house? You could live with 2kW.. then why does the powerline feed support gigawatts of transmission? Marmalade of course everyone likes to quote the maximum theoretical bandwidth NBN can provide, but in reality it will deliver far lower speeds I've several friends with NBN and none of them ever get less than their plan speed when testing from reputable testing sites. Marmalade As for 'future proofing'.... will Australia ever get gigabit broadband...perhaps in the long distant future? We already have it! StevieP NBN plans currently max out at 100mb your home network will be a 1GB or 1000mb so plenty of headroom, down the road NBN may increase to 1gb. Cat 5e is capable of 1GB networking Cat 6 offers better shielding then 5e and for the small amount of cost difference would of been desirable. As above 1000mbps is an NBN wholesale product which can be ordered. It's not cheap.. but if I'm willing to pay it, who is anyone to tell me otherwise? Also, Cat5e is capable of getting 1000mbps sync, but will probably never hit it due to crosstalk & the copper gauge used in Cat5e. Cat5e is also incapable of running gigabit with power-over-ethernet, which is something I will need to do in the future when I install a HD security system. The cameras take HD video uncompressed and dump it into storage across the network. The base rate is 135MBps, that's 135 megabytes of information in every second worth of HD video, that cannot be run on 100mbps PoE. Marmalade If you feel comfortable with paying that little more for cat6 then by all means do so, but will it be of any benefit now (or maybe even in 10 years).. most likely not. It would be far more prudent to ensure that whichever cabling you have installed, it should be made easy to replace by pulling through,and in most cases conduit is a wise choice for this very reason. And yeah, this is exactly what I posted about. I requested this from the builder, they wrote on the plan "ALL INTERNAL COMMUNICATION POINTS MUST BE IN CONDUIT" and "NBN RUN IN REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS". I told them clearly that I wanted to pull the Cat6 out and replace it with fibre in the future, which they agreed to. I didn't specifically tell them I wanted Cat6, because I referred to 'The Cat6' about 100 times in conversation. I would appreciate some helpful replies by the way, everyone here has just told me that I don't need what I want and additionally a whole load of misinformation like "There is no gigabit fibre" and "cat5e/6 exceeds current nbn requirements by a factor of 10" (you know what a factor is right?). Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 7Aug 29, 2014 11:37 am Ok thats fine, if u want all that then thats great. But if u want to build an enterprise grade network you shouldn't rely on a builder to do it. As i said previously, If ur willing to fork out the $$$$$ for Gigabit NBN, 10GB Switching, Fiber throughout your house. Then you should of done it all with a professional cabler where you could specificy exactly what your want, where you want. If the builder wasnt going to let you use your own tradesman for this then maybe you should of looked at using a builder who would let you. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 8Aug 29, 2014 11:41 am enkayz I didn't specifically tell them I wanted Cat6, because I referred to 'The Cat6' about 100 times in conversation. I would appreciate some helpful replies by the way, everyone here has just told me that I don't need what I want and additionally a whole load of misinformation like "There is no gigabit fibre" and "cat5e/6 exceeds current nbn requirements by a factor of 10" (you know what a factor is right?). Nice attitude. Here's a helpful reply then. If it's not in writing then you have no recourse. Anything in writing forms part of the contract. If they haven't delivered what was specified in writing in the contract, then you are within your rights to demand they rectify it. Anything else you may have only mentioned in conversation? Tough luck. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 9Aug 29, 2014 11:49 am Bluesuede enkayz I didn't specifically tell them I wanted Cat6, because I referred to 'The Cat6' about 100 times in conversation. I would appreciate some helpful replies by the way, everyone here has just told me that I don't need what I want and additionally a whole load of misinformation like "There is no gigabit fibre" and "cat5e/6 exceeds current nbn requirements by a factor of 10" (you know what a factor is right?). Nice attitude. Here's a helpful reply then. If it's not in writing then you have no recourse. Anything in writing forms part of the contract. If they haven't delivered what was specified in writing in the contract, then you are within your rights to demand they rectify it. Anything else you may have only mentioned in conversation? Tough luck. Does Consumer Law apply to builders and trade practises? Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 10Aug 29, 2014 12:05 pm Quote: I've several friends with NBN and none of them ever get less than their plan speed when testing from reputable testing sites. ...because this is the same as downloading something from any source on the internet or from multiple different seeds of torrents right? You could have 1Gbit and still be stuck behind someone else's upload bottleneck downloading at 100k. i think the distinction people are trying to articulate here is that untill everything is 10gbit standard, 10gbit compliance is money down the drain (especialy given how the Au Gov is draging their feed behind some poorer countries in way of standard speeds). Fair point about about your LAN though. although re your builder, if its not as per documented and agreed plan, raise it and tell them theyre dumb. youre not getting what you paid for. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 11Aug 29, 2014 12:21 pm By the way, if you're wanting to fork out the dough have a rated 10G network in your home then you should have asked for Cat 6a cabling anyway. Whilst Cat 6 can support up to 10G in good conditions it's not rated at 10G and not recommended for 10G compliant networks. You've had the responses above because you made statements like "NBN is high-speed stuff, you can't run it on Cat5e!" which isn't true. You can run gigabit fine on Cat 5e. I was under the impression the 2009 spec of PoE allowed for gigabit speed on 5e as you can run power simultaneously on data carrying pairs. Obviously 6 and above is better. If you want a 10G network I'd recommend you go back to the builder, advise them that 5e isn't suitable for your requirements. You can try the line of that they were advised verbally multiple times of your expectation of Cat 6, but I don't like your chances. You'd be better served by asking them to replace the cabling and specify it at cat 6a in order to best serve your 10G requirements for your LAN. It'll be a variation cost but if you really want it then spend the money on it. If the conduit isn't as specified then make them fix it all as it is written on the plans. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 12Aug 29, 2014 12:26 pm Ponzu re your builder, if its not as per documented and agreed plan, raise it and tell them theyre dumb. youre not getting what you paid for. Bluesuede If the conduit isn't as specified then make them fix it all as it is written on the plans. That's what I'm trying to work out.. On the plan it says: "NBN COMPLIANT RUN-IN TO HOME." "NBN RUN IN TO BE PROVIDED TO STAIRWELL AS REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS." "ALL COMMUNICATION POINTS (D'S) ON INTERNAL WALLS MUST BE IN CONDUIT. I understood this, coupled with our verbal discussions about 'pulling the fibre through by tying it to the cat6 in the future' when I wanted to upgrade to fibre-points instead of copper, meant that there would be conduit between all points. To explain further my understanding of the text, NBN COMPLIANT RUN IN means 23mm ID AS1477-compliant conduit between the two points (as noted in NBN's installation guide for SDUs). Therefore it was my belief that the wording for "conduit between all points" in the electrical plan was: NBN RUN IN TO BE PROVIDED TO STAIRWELL AS REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS.". The 'AS REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS' part specifically says to be that there will be an NBN compliant run-in for ALL communication points, meaning AS1477 conduit between points. Noted that it's a lot of conduit and impractical for the builder/cabler; but that's what I asked for & those words all make sense to agree with what I asked for. Or am I reading between lines with the meaning of "NBN COMPLIANT RUN IN" even though it says clearly in the NBN requirements; NBNCo The internal conduit must conform to the following requirements: Type 23mm ID; 26.6 to 26.8mm OD white PVC-U telecommunications conduit, compliant with AS1477. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 13Aug 29, 2014 12:30 pm Bluesuede You've had the responses above because you made statements like "NBN is high-speed stuff, you can't run it on Cat5e!" which isn't true. You can run gigabit fine on Cat 5e. I was under the impression the 2009 spec of PoE allowed for gigabit speed on 5e as you can run power simultaneously on data carrying pairs. Obviously 6 and above is better. While that's technically true about the spec, it doesn't work like that in reality, especially when the cables are crushed up against each other in a pipe, the crosstalk becomes an issue and hampers throughput, ESPECIALLY when running PoE. Additionally running PoE generates a fair amount of heat which increases the resistance of the cable, meaning less throughput. All in all, yes, you 'can' do it, but it doesn't really work properly. I'm trying to do things PROPERLY, not half-ass like everyone seems to be happy with. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 14Aug 29, 2014 12:36 pm enkayz Bluesuede You've had the responses above because you made statements like "NBN is high-speed stuff, you can't run it on Cat5e!" which isn't true. You can run gigabit fine on Cat 5e. I was under the impression the 2009 spec of PoE allowed for gigabit speed on 5e as you can run power simultaneously on data carrying pairs. Obviously 6 and above is better. While that's technically true about the spec, it doesn't work like that in reality, especially when the cables are crushed up against each other in a pipe, the crosstalk becomes an issue and hampers throughput, ESPECIALLY when running PoE. Additionally running PoE generates a fair amount of heat which increases the resistance of the cable, meaning less throughput. All in all, yes, you 'can' do it, but it doesn't really work properly. I'm trying to do things PROPERLY, not half-ass like everyone seems to be happy with. End of the day, what you ask for is what you should be provided with. If your requirements are 10G LAN, then you should have the appropriate infrastructure provided. Conduit to all data points is fairly explicit. They should rectify this. NBN run in - I would have expected this be on Cat 6. If you've got NBN compliant noted, the show the builder the NBN compliance requirements and have him rectify it as per your specification. Internal cabling - you haven't got it specified, nor noted it be 10G compliant therefore you'll most likely have to have this done by variation. If you're having to do that then spend a few extra and go Cat 6a and do it properly. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 15Aug 29, 2014 12:49 pm Bluesuede End of the day, what you ask for is what you should be provided with. If your requirements are 10G LAN, then you should have the appropriate infrastructure provided. Conduit to all data points is fairly explicit. They should rectify this. NBN run in - I would have expected this be on Cat 6. If you've got NBN compliant noted, the show the builder the NBN compliance requirements and have him rectify it as per your specification. Internal cabling - you haven't got it specified, nor noted it be 10G compliant therefore you'll most likely have to have this done by variation. If you're having to do that then spend a few extra and go Cat 6a and do it properly. I suppose the ambiguity enters when it says 'REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS'. If NBN RUN-IN means Cat 6 like you said, shouldn't the 'for all comms' part mean Cat6 for all comms? IN regard to the Conduit to all data points, it says 'On Internal Walls' - there is conduit on each point, just going up into the roof & then its strewn about the roof. Technically the conduit is on the internal walls. The document doesn't say Conduit Between Points, but it does say NBN COMPLIANT for all comms, and NBN COMPLIANT = conduit between points. I was going to go back to the builder and tell them these things, point out that nbn compliance is about having conduits between points and they wrote that all comms nbn compliant etc? Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 16Aug 29, 2014 12:51 pm Also I expressly apologize to anyone I might have offended or put off; pretty much 90% of the reason I built a house is because NBN took where I was living off the rollout map, and this block already has the fibre ready to go. The whole point I built this house is for NBN/comms, and the builder knew that very well, I guess I'm in a bit of a bad mood! Although seeing a few other threads around here, better toughen up! Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 17Aug 29, 2014 1:01 pm The only thing you can do is provide written evidence of non-compliance to the requirements specified. Do you have the relevant NBN compliance requirements handy? Provide it to the builder and highlight the parts where the installation does not meet the published requirements. There is no room for assumptions or hearsay - it's noted on the plans to be NBN compliant, so if it's not, then demonstrate how. It's the only way you'll win an argument over delivery of a product that is not what you expected and have them pay to rectify it. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 18Aug 29, 2014 1:25 pm http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbn ... d-mdus.pdf 'Run In' means a conduit run between two points. NBN COMPLIANT RUN IN means 23mm internal-diameter AS1477-compliant conduit. Given these two things, NBN COMPLIANT RUN IN .. AS REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS means an NBN run-in for every comms point. Therefore it was my belief that the wording for conduit between all points in the electrical plan was: NBN RUN IN TO BE PROVIDED TO STAIRWELL AS REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS.". The 'AS REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS' part specifically says to be that there will be an NBN compliant run-in for ALL communication points, meaning AS1477 conduit between points. And if they're going to rip out the Cat5e that's stapled around the roof they may as well install cat6! I'll even pay for the cat6 upgrade as long as it's not profited on. I know the difference in cost per meter... Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 19Aug 29, 2014 1:46 pm enkayz http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco/documents/preparation-and-installation-guide-for-sdus-and-mdus.pdf 'Run In' means a conduit run between two points. NBN COMPLIANT RUN IN means 23mm internal-diameter AS1477-compliant conduit. Given these two things, NBN COMPLIANT RUN IN .. AS REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS means an NBN run-in for every comms point. Therefore it was my belief that the wording for conduit between all points in the electrical plan was: NBN RUN IN TO BE PROVIDED TO STAIRWELL AS REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS.". The 'AS REQUESTED BY CLIENT FOR ALL COMMS' part specifically says to be that there will be an NBN compliant run-in for ALL communication points, meaning AS1477 conduit between points. And if they're going to rip out the Cat5e that's stapled around the roof they may as well install cat6! I'll even pay for the cat6 upgrade as long as it's not profited on. I know the difference in cost per meter... The problem is that the NBN compliance requirements only deal with the run in from external provision to an internal point. Everything past that point is "customer provided cabling". So on that basis, they've met the conditions for NBN requirements (apart from the initial run if they've used a non-compliant conduit for that part). It even mentions in the customer cabling section of the pdf about using Cat 5. Your only hope is to get them to recognise that you've referred verbally to Cat 6 all along. Failing that, seek a variation as I've mentioned to have the 5e replaced with Cat 6 (or 6a if you want 10G compliance). Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: Conduit & cable standards, what should we expect? 20Aug 29, 2014 3:03 pm Bluesuede enkayz http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco/documents/preparation-and-installation-guide-for-sdus-and-mdus.pdf 'Run In' means a conduit run between two points. The problem is that the NBN compliance requirements only deal with the run in from external provision to an internal point. Everything past that point is "customer provided cabling". So on that basis, they've met the conditions for NBN requirements (apart from the initial run if they've used a non-compliant conduit for that part). It even mentions in the customer cabling section of the pdf about using Cat 5. Your only hope is to get them to recognise that you've referred verbally to Cat 6 all along. Failing that, seek a variation as I've mentioned to have the 5e replaced with Cat 6 (or 6a if you want 10G compliance). Yeah seems like that, although in relation to the conduit, nbn compliance doesn't matter - it says, if you remove the NBN compliance bit 'Run In Requested For All Comms'. That's probably enough.. Run In = Conduit no matter which way you look at it. I will be noting to the builder that I referred to Cat6 all along and specifically did not go to the effort to tell them outright 'I want Cat6, charge me for it' because I assumed someone would have told me Cat6 was an upgrade after how much I talked about Cat6 & Fibre in the future. I'm not one to get into fights over stuff usually, but this is my communications system for the next 10 years and foreseeable future; I'm not going to be able to afford to re-run conduits or cables; budget is all going towards hardware cause it ain't cheap! This matters very very much to me. the conduit would need to be undamaged regardless of what network is in play. The conduit needs to be able to have fibre run through it. NBN and Opticomm are just… 4 2877 Building Standards; Getting It Right! Don't think they are designed for double brick. WA has a particular way of building and unfortunately that's the way a large amount of sills are finished. 3 6997 I believe this is correct. From the picture you can see the power was put in last so the electrician knew where the water was. Really it's a common sense issue more… 4 5148 |