Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Feb 25, 2020 9:55 am Hi, I am currently building a Bal40 house and have a number of awning windows. We have sourced windows tested and certified to AS1530.8 but understand that the opening portion of the windows still need to be screened. My question is, how do you achieve this with awning windows? Is it ok for the screen to be on the inside as you would with a normal flyscreen? I am getting conflicting advice from the building surveyor & fabricator. Anyone advice would be appreciated! Thanks, Bernie Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 2Feb 26, 2020 8:27 am Hi Bernie, That's a good question and you are half correct in that the opening portion of the window needs to be screened. On a standard awning window (no BAL) the screen would be fitted internally with a winding mechanism. The difficulty comes about when referencing AS3959 CONSTRUCTION OF BUILDINGS IN BUSHFIRE-PRONE AREAS. Under Section 8 for BAL 40: 8.5 EXTERNAL GLAZED ELEMENTS AND ASSEMBLIES AND EXTERNAL DOORS 8.5.1 Bushfire shutters Where fitted, bushfire shutters shall comply with Clause 3.7 and be made from non-combustible material. 8.5.1A Screens for windows and doors Where fitted, screens for windows and doors shall have a mesh or perforated sheet with a maximum aperture of 2 mm, made of corrosion-resistant steel or bronze. Gaps between the perimeter of the screen assembly and the building element to which it is fitted shall not exceed 3 mm. The frame supporting the mesh or perforated sheet shall be metal. 8.5.2 Windows Window assemblies shall comply with one of the following: (a) They shall be completely protected by a bushfire shutter that complies with Clause 8.5.1. or (b) They shall comply with the following: (i) Window frames and hardware shall be metal. (ii) Glazing shall be toughened glass minimum 6 mm. (iii) Both the openable and fixed portions of the window shall be screened externally with screens that comply with Clause 8.5.1A. (iv) Seals to stiles, head and sills or thresholds shall be manufactured from materials having a flammability index no greater than 5 or from silicone. Is this where your conflicting advice is coming about? My understanding is all windows (whether openable or fixed portions) are required to be screened externally which is why awning style windows are not permitted. This is because the screen provides extra protection for the glazed portion of the window. Perhaps you would be better off changing to a sliding or double hung style window? Hope this helps, and if you have any further questions I'd be happy to assist! Kind regards, Laurence Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 3Feb 26, 2020 11:00 am Hi Lawrence, Thanks for your reply, but i'll have to disagree! I discussed this with the window manufacturers and the AGWA and my understanding is now as follows. Clause 8.5 does not apply, as we have sourced windows that have been tesed & certified to AS1530.8. Clause 8.5 is the 'deemed to satisfy' approach for systems that havent been tested. Earlier on Clause 8.1 of AS3959 states: “Any element of construction or system that satisfies the test criteria of AS1530.8.1 may be used in lieu of the applicable requirements of Clauses 8.2 to 8.8 (see Clause 3.8 )." Clause 3.8 states: ”Where any element of construction or system satisfies the test criteria in the AS1530.8 series without screening for ember protection, the requirement of this Standard for screening of openable parts of windows shall still apply.” It does not state the screen must be external. The screen in this instance isnt to protect the glazing as you mentioned, as the windows/glazing have already been tested/certified. The screen is purely there to protect from embers in the unlikely event that someone has forgotten to close the window when a fire arrives. Therefore a screen on the inside is OK. I hope this logic is sound and accepted by the building surveyor, as to we are ready to order windows and it will be painful to change things now! Thanks again, Bernie Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 4Feb 26, 2020 12:46 pm Hi Bernie, Forgive me! I missed the part where you had mentioned the window manufacturer had already satisfied AS1530.8. Surely in that instance, providing the certification to the Building Surveyor or certifier would give them no reason decline. Have you had any feedback from the Building Surveyor? Is this where you are getting differing opinions? Kind regards, Laurence Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 5Feb 26, 2020 2:13 pm bamorrisHi Lawrence, Thanks for your reply, but i'll have to disagree! I discussed this with the window manufacturers and the AGWA and my understanding is now as follows. Clause 8.5 does not apply, as we have sourced windows that have been tesed & certified to AS1530.8. Clause 8.5 is the 'deemed to satisfy' approach for systems that havent been tested. Earlier on Clause 8.1 of AS3959 states: “Any element of construction or system that satisfies the test criteria of AS1530.8.1 may be used in lieu of the applicable requirements of Clauses 8.2 to 8.8 (see Clause 3.8 )." Clause 3.8 states: ”Where any element of construction or system satisfies the test criteria in the AS1530.8 series without screening for ember protection, the requirement of this Standard for screening of openable parts of windows shall still apply.” This is the key, if the window has not bee built with a screen and tested (with the screen in place) then you till need to met the requirements of 8.5.3a or b It does not state the screen must be external. Yes it does, you need to refer to clause 8.5.3b Windows an Sidelights The screen in this instance isnt to protect the glazing as you mentioned, as the windows/glazing have already been tested/certified. The screens are required to resist exposure to heat flux at the assessed level. The glass will break regardless of BAL rating. The screen is purely there to protect from embers in the unlikely event that someone has forgotten to close the window when a fire arrives. As above, the screens are for protection against radiant heat at the assessed BAL rating. Yes they can reduce risks from ember attack, but that is not the primary performance requirement. Therefore a screen on the inside is OK. The internal screen will not satisfy the requirements of the standard, in my opinion, based on the information in this thread. As per clause 8.5.3, the whole glazing system and installation needs to meet clause 8.5.3a "Window assemblies shall— (a) be completely protected by a bushfire shutter that conforms with Clause 3.7 and Clause 8.5.1;" or 8.5.3b "(b) conform with the following: (i) Frame material Window frames and window joinery shall be metal. (ii) Hardware Externally fitted hardware that supports the sash in its functions of opening and closing shall be metal. Trims or other components may use material other than metal. (iii) Glazing Glazing shall be toughened glass a minimum of 6 mm thick or glass blocks with no restriction on glazing methods. NOTE: Where double-glazed assemblies are used, the above requirements apply to the external face of the glazed assembly only. (iv) Where used, seals and weather strips to stiles, head and sills or thresholds shall be manufactured from materials having a flammability index not exceeding 5 or from silicone. (v) Screens Both the openable and fixed portions of the window shall be screened externally with screens that conform with Clause 3.6 and Clause 8.5.2. C8.5.3 Components other than metal may be used provided they are shielded by the metal components of the window/door frame." To summarize, you either have a compliant "Bushfire shutter" installed externally to your BAL rated (to the relevant level of attack) windows or You meet all the requirements of "B", specifically for the point of the discussion (v) including having externally mounted and fixed screen manufactured to the standard and also meet the other 4 requirements (i through iv) It seems as though you are confusing the window its self, being the component and the overall system & installation including screens, shutters, trims, etc... I hope this logic is sound and accepted by the building surveyor, as to we are ready to order windows and it will be painful to change things now! I don;t see your surveyor budging on this one, they appear to have a good assessment of the requirements IMO Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 6Feb 26, 2020 3:08 pm You do bring up some good points, I think the question then would be; has the window been designed in accordance with AS1530.8 with screening for ember protection? Because if it has, according to Clause 3.8, then AS3959 8.5.3a or b need not apply. I find it hard to believe the window manufacturer would test the awning window to BAL40 without an internal screen in place for ember attack. Not doing so would then require an external screen rendering the awning window useless. Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 7Feb 27, 2020 6:45 am CF Design bamorrisHi Lawrence, Thanks for your reply, but i'll have to disagree! I discussed this with the window manufacturers and the AGWA and my understanding is now as follows. Clause 8.5 does not apply, as we have sourced windows that have been tesed & certified to AS1530.8. Clause 8.5 is the 'deemed to satisfy' approach for systems that havent been tested. Earlier on Clause 8.1 of AS3959 states: “Any element of construction or system that satisfies the test criteria of AS1530.8.1 may be used in lieu of the applicable requirements of Clauses 8.2 to 8.8 (see Clause 3.8 )." Clause 3.8 states: ”Where any element of construction or system satisfies the test criteria in the AS1530.8 series without screening for ember protection, the requirement of this Standard for screening of openable parts of windows shall still apply.” This is the key, if the window has not bee built with a screen and tested (with the screen in place) then you till need to met the requirements of 8.5.3a or b It does not state the screen must be external. Yes it does, you need to refer to clause 8.5.3b Windows an Sidelights The screen in this instance isnt to protect the glazing as you mentioned, as the windows/glazing have already been tested/certified. The screens are required to resist exposure to heat flux at the assessed level. The glass will break regardless of BAL rating. The screen is purely there to protect from embers in the unlikely event that someone has forgotten to close the window when a fire arrives. As above, the screens are for protection against radiant heat at the assessed BAL rating. Yes they can reduce risks from ember attack, but that is not the primary performance requirement. Therefore a screen on the inside is OK. The internal screen will not satisfy the requirements of the standard, in my opinion, based on the information in this thread. As per clause 8.5.3, the whole glazing system and installation needs to meet clause 8.5.3a "Window assemblies shall— (a) be completely protected by a bushfire shutter that conforms with Clause 3.7 and Clause 8.5.1;" or 8.5.3b "(b) conform with the following: (i) Frame material Window frames and window joinery shall be metal. (ii) Hardware Externally fitted hardware that supports the sash in its functions of opening and closing shall be metal. Trims or other components may use material other than metal. (iii) Glazing Glazing shall be toughened glass a minimum of 6 mm thick or glass blocks with no restriction on glazing methods. NOTE: Where double-glazed assemblies are used, the above requirements apply to the external face of the glazed assembly only. (iv) Where used, seals and weather strips to stiles, head and sills or thresholds shall be manufactured from materials having a flammability index not exceeding 5 or from silicone. (v) Screens Both the openable and fixed portions of the window shall be screened externally with screens that conform with Clause 3.6 and Clause 8.5.2. C8.5.3 Components other than metal may be used provided they are shielded by the metal components of the window/door frame." To summarize, you either have a compliant "Bushfire shutter" installed externally to your BAL rated (to the relevant level of attack) windows or You meet all the requirements of "B", specifically for the point of the discussion (v) including having externally mounted and fixed screen manufactured to the standard and also meet the other 4 requirements (i through iv) It seems as though you are confusing the window its self, being the component and the overall system & installation including screens, shutters, trims, etc... I hope this logic is sound and accepted by the building surveyor, as to we are ready to order windows and it will be painful to change things now! I don;t see your surveyor budging on this one, they appear to have a good assessment of the requirements IMO I think we'll have to agree to disagree. By your logic we'd have to screen both fixed and openable portions of the window. This is not correct. In subsequent discussions with the manufacturers, they stated the intent of Clause 3.8 is purely to provide protection in the event someone forgets to shut a window, and in this instance it does not matter if the screen is internal or external. Apparently they regularly install Bal40 awning windows in this way. Lawrence, apparently windows are tested in the closed position to get them certified so external screens are not required. Testing them closed with an internal screen wouldnt achieve anything. Cheers, bernie Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 8Feb 27, 2020 9:57 am Hi Bernie, Whilst I agree with the manufacturers intent, I believe that is where the conflict is coming from as the windows require ember protection while open. I completely agree that an internal screen could provide that protection but If the windows were not tested with ember protection (screen) in place at the time of testing, then Clause 3.8 requires that the standard for screening of openable parts of windows to still apply; which calls for the screens to be external. I know Stegbar for instance have compliant awning windows for BAL40 with an internal screen as it was tested as a whole unit. Cheers, Laurence Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 9Feb 27, 2020 6:20 pm l_vanslyke Hi Bernie, I know Stegbar for instance have compliant awning windows for BAL40 with an internal screen as it was tested as a whole unit. Cheers, Laurence And if you want to know why the may not have "tested" them, they probably have, but didn't pass the test. Manufacturers can still them as a BAL40 compliant window, just not as a whole system. Then we end up with people going through the same issue you are right now. Who is the window manufacturer and what model are the windows? Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 10Feb 29, 2020 11:06 pm This is a great question. My understanding was that builders would source BAL 40 windows as they keep a provisional allowance for this at the time of tender. Or do the builders not source windows for BaL40? May I ask who is your builder? bamorris Hi, I am currently building a Bal40 house and have a number of awning windows. We have sourced windows tested and certified to AS1530.8 but understand that the opening portion of the windows still need to be screened. My question is, how do you achieve this with awning windows? Is it ok for the screen to be on the inside as you would with a normal flyscreen? I am getting conflicting advice from the building surveyor & fabricator. Anyone advice would be appreciated! Thanks, Bernie Re: Bal40 Awning Windows 11Mar 02, 2020 8:01 am faykis This is a great question. My understanding was that builders would source BAL 40 windows as they keep a provisional allowance for this at the time of tender. Or do the builders not source windows for BaL40? May I ask who is your builder? Hey Faykis, If the builder is supplying the windows and building approvals ect the windows will need to be compliant and should be sourced by the builder. Also, there is no excuse for the builder not to supply an actual price for the required windows prior to tender: a) They know the windows need to be BAL40 compliant, b) Window manufacturers can easily provide a quote to the builder for supply of such windows. Leaving this as to provisional sum is dangerous and could end up costing the owner an awful lot more. Because it's not just windows that need to be compliant when building in any BAL zone. So make sure the details are all sorted prior to tender because it won't be worth the paper it's written on. Hope this helps! Cheers, Laurence 4 14277 There is evidence of water on the head reveals. That could have happened during the build, or may be happening currently. There are water stains above a couple of windows… 2 3830 Personally, considering your layout (study/work desks in bedrooms), I don't think you have any other option but to leave NW windows and make them as big as possible e.g.… 7 10470 |