Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Jul 28, 2008 9:20 pm My question is: are architects obliged to design within the budget we give them and if not what can you do?
Our architects were given our brief and budget which they agreed to and said that they could design within that. They completed the plans, gave us an estimate of cost, we approved them, they submitted to council and had them approved. When the first quote came in at DOUBLE our budget the architects instantly called a meeting with us and firstly said that that builder had no idea. Two more quotes came in and then they called a meeting and said that we would have to cut the house size to bring it back into budget (and I will mention that their suggestion was to cut so much out that we ended up with a one bedroom home with living areas for $750K, oh - and also loose the back deck). We have come up with a modification of the original design, which our builder has said is within budget. What are the architects obligations? Any advice would help. Jayne Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 2Jul 28, 2008 9:24 pm I am not a lawyer but here goes.
If you have given a brief to the architecct, and they have not gone through with your plans based on your budget, you should be able to take the plans to someone else. normally an architect who designs the plans owns them, however given that they have not fulfilled their obligations, the n I would suggest ythey have not completed their part of the deal, and hence have no right to the plans. I would also suggest that any plans drawn up to doulbe your budget were not part of you brief, and the architect should not be charging you for their time. Adrian B Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 3Jul 28, 2008 10:03 pm I haven't gone there yet with releasing the plans to someone else.
Unfortunately, stupidly I think now, we have already paid them their final payment. I have asked them to make modifications and they have decided that any changes will be at a very unpleasant hourly rate. I just emailed a rather blunt email to them. I don't hold much hope for them honouring their responsibility though. Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 4Jul 28, 2008 10:25 pm Did they get the plans independently costed, for example by a quantity surveyor ? If they didn't this may help your claim, as you could say that they didn't take reasonable action to ensure that they were working within your brief.
Justin. Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 5Jul 28, 2008 10:59 pm No, they said that we could pay for one if we really wanted to but that the only reason they were suggesting it was that they were obliged to inform us of that option to cover themselves. They told us it would cost us about $3500 if we chose to. So, naturally we weren't real keen on $3500 of what was presented as an unnecessary expense.
They put a costing down for us on paper just prior to submitting to council -which I am very pleased that I kept. They do however now claim that if we had of employed a quantity surveyor we would have known that the plans were out of our budget - so it is not their responsibility that the plans that they submitted are not affordable. Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 6Jul 29, 2008 7:59 am trodan No, they said that we could pay for one if we really wanted to but that the only reason they were suggesting it was that they were obliged to inform us of that option to cover themselves. They told us it would cost us about $3500 if we chose to. So, naturally we weren't real keen on $3500 of what was presented as an unnecessary expense. They put a costing down for us on paper just prior to submitting to council -which I am very pleased that I kept. They do however now claim that if we had of employed a quantity surveyor we would have known that the plans were out of our budget - so it is not their responsibility that the plans that they submitted are not affordable. I like this. Pay $3500 to get someone else to take responsibility. If the architect had to work to a budget then that's part of the contract. If the design was over by 20% and you got everything you wanted fair enough. If it's double then they have not fulfilled the contract. Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 7Jul 29, 2008 9:22 am I'm beginning to understand why the advice has been to go the route of a draftsman or similar rather than an architect. This seems to be common practice throughout the industry with architects. I can't understand why it isn't more regulated.
Clearly it is a case of not fulfilling the brief and therefor not fulfilling the contract. Jo I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 8Jul 29, 2008 9:56 am I'm not 100% sure on this, but doesn't the Institute of Architects have a dispute resolution service (assuming this person is a member of the institute)? Maybe try contacting them for advice.
Unfortunately, these are the sort of architects that give everyone a bad name. My uncle is an architect and gets tarred with the same brush. I think there are a few (quite a few) out there that seem think they are 'artists' (I suppose they are in a way) and your budget is standing in the way of their art. Frustrating, isn't it?? I would think if they haven't done as you requested by sticking to your budget they should be making any changes for free. I can't understand how they could think they are designing to your budget and then be shocked when the prices come in at twice that. Surely if they are doing other jobs they have an idea of pricing. Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 9Jul 29, 2008 10:47 am hmm nasty
what specifuically does you contract say? If the contract sipulates that they must design the house to fit within your budget then I would suggest they have breached contract. I'm sure though that they will have a loophole clause that indemnifies them from this. I think you need to go find a very good solicitor who specialises in such matters as I think they only way to resolve this now will be with such help. Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 10Jul 29, 2008 10:56 am Not sure what state you're in but maybe try http://www.arbv.vic.gov.au/ or the equivalent in your state. mmm....donuts Homer Simpson 1956- Links: Site Costs Ready Reckoner | H1 Addiction Medical Advice | Château TDL: The Backyard Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 11Jul 29, 2008 11:48 am it depends on the time of when your plans were submitted to the time you got the quote from builder as well. Prices do change and go higher. If there was a bit of time between when they first did the design to when you finally got the builder's quote then the price would be higher. Remember as well, petrol prices have gone up so there will be more transport cost involved. Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 12Jul 29, 2008 11:54 am $3500 for a Quantity Surveyor I paid one of them $500 and he actually did 3 versions of the Bill of Quantities, for 3 types of walls - Energy-Lite Panels, double brick and Reverse Brick Veneer. I was reasonably satisfied with his BoQ, in spite of the final costs being 30% more than what we hoped for. I still have to confront it with real life though. As for the architect, ours knew our budget and the cost of what he designed was spot on.
Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 13Jul 29, 2008 12:17 pm trodan No, they said that we could pay for one if we really wanted to but that the only reason they were suggesting it was that they were obliged to inform us of that option to cover themselves. They told us it would cost us about $3500 if we chose to. So, naturally we weren't real keen on $3500 of what was presented as an unnecessary expense. They are nuts ... how can a proper costing be an 'unnecessary expense', especially when the house is a one off, and is expected to cost $750,000! Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 14Jul 29, 2008 12:25 pm sammy it depends on the time of when your plans were submitted to the time you got the quote from builder as well. Prices do change and go higher. If there was a bit of time between when they first did the design to when you finally got the builder's quote then the price would be higher. Remember as well, petrol prices have gone up so there will be more transport cost involved. Are you saying prices have doubled over the period it took to design the house? No chance. Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 15Jul 29, 2008 1:33 pm Casa2 sammy it depends on the time of when your plans were submitted to the time you got the quote from builder as well. Prices do change and go higher. If there was a bit of time between when they first did the design to when you finally got the builder's quote then the price would be higher. Remember as well, petrol prices have gone up so there will be more transport cost involved. Are you saying prices have doubled over the period it took to design the house? No chance. Anticpated Building Price Adjustment from Dec 07 to Dec 08 (Source: Australian Contruction Handbook, Quarterly Update, July 2008) 8.0%.... Adelaide 6.0%.... Brisbane 6.5%.... Canberra 9.0%.... Darwin 4.0%.... Hobart 5.0%.... Melbourne 8.0%.... Perth 7.0%.... Sydney Just a note this is for major construction but it would be within a few percentage points. mmm....donuts Homer Simpson 1956- Links: Site Costs Ready Reckoner | H1 Addiction Medical Advice | Château TDL: The Backyard Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 16Jul 29, 2008 7:29 pm Okay guys - this is where we're up to. Thank you all for your advice so far.
We have called the Australian Institute of Architects and have spoken with one of their senior counsellors who was extremely helpful. Yes, Architects are supposed to deliver a design within an allowance of about 10% of your budget. The fact that they haven't may mean that right from the start they are in breach of contract and definitely need to redesign without charge. We are now going to check the contract but, as has been stated here, we're sure they have a special 'out' clause also inserted in the contract. If that negotiation doesn't go well we then let the architects know that we will be notifying the Institute of their conduct and their lack of co-operation to resolve the matter. Yes, I would definitely enjoy sending that email! We are going in in stages and have just emailed the Architects to let them know that we have spoken to AIOA and that they outlined several steps for us to take to resolve this matter. Asked for a copy of our original contact to be sent and amazingly our email jumped to life instantly. Apparently they are quite keen to also resolve this matter. I believe it's far from over but it's nice to at least have shaken them a little. Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 17Jul 29, 2008 7:40 pm trodan My question is: are architects obliged to design within the budget we give them and if not what can you do? Our architects were given our brief and budget which they agreed to and said that they could design within that. They completed the plans, gave us an estimate of cost, we approved them, they submitted to council and had them approved. When the first quote came in at DOUBLE our budget the architects instantly called a meeting with us and firstly said that that builder had no idea. Two more quotes came in and then they called a meeting and said that we would have to cut the house size to bring it back into budget (and I will mention that their suggestion was to cut so much out that we ended up with a one bedroom home with living areas for $750K, oh - and also loose the back deck). We have come up with a modification of the original design, which our builder has said is within budget. What are the architects obligations? Any advice would help. Jayne It would be no different than if you asked me to stay within budget! A budget is a budget, no mater who is working with it. In my eyes the only person who is aloud to run OFF budget is YOU!!! Problem with Architects is, they just can’t seem to stop running up the $$$$$$’s. Send your specks back to him, and tell him this is the budget, now have another go! I have also learnt that they pretty much don’t know how much things cost! Your builder does, but the poor architect doesn’t! It’s up to you to get him to stay within the gridlines of your budget. Internal and External Building and Colour Consultant Online - Worldwide http://www.denovoconcepts.com Re: When the Architect doubles your budget! 18Jul 29, 2008 7:42 pm trodan Okay guys - this is where we're up to. Thank you all for your advice so far. We have called the Australian Institute of Architects and have spoken with one of their senior counsellors who was extremely helpful. Yes, Architects are supposed to deliver a design within an allowance of about 10% of your budget. The fact that they haven't may mean that right from the start they are in breach of contract and definitely need to redesign without charge. We are now going to check the contract but, as has been stated here, we're sure they have a special 'out' clause also inserted in the contract. If that negotiation doesn't go well we then let the architects know that we will be notifying the Institute of their conduct and their lack of co-operation to resolve the matter. Yes, I would definitely enjoy sending that email! We are going in in stages and have just emailed the Architects to let them know that we have spoken to AIOA and that they outlined several steps for us to take to resolve this matter. Asked for a copy of our original contact to be sent and amazingly our email jumped to life instantly. Apparently they are quite keen to also resolve this matter. I believe it's far from over but it's nice to at least have shaken them a little. I wouldn't be looking for a special 'out' clause. Contracts must be fair and an out clause for a fundamental requirement would not be accepted by any court. Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Your build is relatively simple, I believe your job can be easily done by a good building designer, you really do not need to pay for the architect. Remember, architect's… 3 10985 I've just had a look at the website. The company are just building broker's. There are plenty of similar companies that basically draw your plans (they own them so you… 8 10927 Coming back to your old stomping grounds, huh? Renovations on a budget can be quite the journey. It's like giving your house a new lease on life. The twist of not knowing… 1 3476 |