Why are builders so dumb?

I don’t usually rant but there’s one thing about project/volume builders that really gets up my nose – the sheer stupidity of their tender/selection processes.

I’m not going to mention our builder’s name here, partly because we’ve had a generally smooth run with them and partly because they’re all much the same, but I really lost it with the poor old building supervisor today.

You go through this long-winded process of looking at display homes and plans and eventually choose one. For weeks, maybe months, you go back and forth on tender prices and variations. That’s not too painful for plan alterations and upgrades but you also have to do your utmost to ensure that everything, especially non-standard fittings, is actually priced and included in the tender to avoid the possibility of price hikes, inflated margins and variation costs later.

So if you’re choosing things like benchtops, tapware, appliances, light fittings etc, outside of the (usually horrible) builder’s standard (or even premium) range you jump through hoops finding what you want in a very limited space of time and getting it priced (and arguing about the margin the builder wants to put on it all).

Eventually you get a tender you can live with and you sign a contract. Then, immediately afterwards, the builder wants you to do colour selections – choose all the tiles, the paint colours etc, etc, etc. This is often all before plans have even gone to council (a process that can itself take months) but the builder is convinced that people spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a new home can easily make decisions on everything from the material for their benchtops to the colour of the walls to the carpet in just a couple of hours with a so-called colour consultant.

Well, maybe you can – we all manage it in the end, despite the frustration. But – and this is what gets me – this process is all happening weeks or even months before a sod has been turned on the site. And it’s all totally meaningless.

These builders don’t actually buy the stuff you chose, or even have it put aside, when you choose it! How stupid is that?

Twice during our building process we’ve had calls from the builder to say something we had chosen was “not available.” Their expectation is that you will happily change something you might have spent weeks searching for (and that your partner fell in love with), at the drop of a hat.

The first time they did this to us was with granite tops. Back at the tender stage (last October) we sought out the granite we wanted. Picked the slabs. Had the supplier mark them up as “held”. Told the builder and the cabinet maker. Got a quote from them. Had it added to the tender. And then forgot about it, secure in the knowledge that we were getting the granite we really wanted.

A week before the kitchen is due to go in (7 months after we actually chose the slabs) we get a call from the cabinet maker to say “our” granite is out of stock and we’ll have to choose something else so they can fit the kitchen.

Oh yeah? In the end (after a few arguments) the kitchen was delayed 3 weeks because we refused to even consider anything else. We got lucky. After searching all over QLD (and spending our time running around to look at alternatives) we found 2 more nearly identical slabs. Even so, it ended up costing me more than the original price because of the delay. I could live with that (unhappily) because the second lot was actually thicker and, to be fair to the builder, we got a good deal (no margin for the builder or the cabinet maker) because they knew they were in the wrong. But this is happening 7 months after we chose it and it’s happening only because the builder didn’t actually order the original pieces we chose and, not surprisingly, it was sold in the meantime (it’s an unusual granite). Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Today we get another call. The sink mixer is no longer available! This is 3 days (3 days!) before the plumber is scheduled to fit all the tapware and they’re calmly (although a trifle nervously after the granite debacle) telling me they’ve only just ordered the stuff. Got all the basin and bath taps just not the sink mixer. There’s no stock left. But hey, there’s a very similar one. It’s nothing like it actually but never mind. That’s a mere detail.

They’re kidding right. They want me to not only accept something we didn’t choose but to have a sink mixer that doesn’t match the rest of the tapware?

They were pretty sheepish about it but that’s about the size of what they expected us to do. Three days before a plumbing fit-out.

This time I blew my stack (it was a bad day anyway). Again we got lucky. Some very chastened plumber’s rep scoured the country and found one in WA. The very last, held for another customer but they’ll get it for us.

Well, okay, all’s well that ends well (although I feel sorry for the poor so and so who also thinks they’ve bought a Dorf Venus sink mixer) but the point of this long, long tirade is – why, oh why do builders do this? It must happen all the time – products get superseded, sold out, no longer available.

What is the point of having things like selection meetings (or of choosing anything prior to a building start) if the builder cannot, or will not, purchase the items or at least have them put aside at the time they’re chosen?

Yes, I understand they don’t want to outlay the money too early, or to store tons of stuff for maybe months but if it’s all that messy why not change the damn system?

In fact, what is the point of even having a “builder’s range” or ‘standard’ or ‘premium’ selections? Why on earth can’t they simply say, you can have anything you want. And you can choose it at any time between say the slab going down and the roof going on? As long as you’re willing to accept the cost variations. Or choose it at the tender if you like but you pay the cost of those items upfront and we’ll store them until they’re required? Got to be more profit for a builder by providing choice.

Rant over. My apologies. But we can’t be the only people to have experienced this kind of thing. There has to be a better way to organise it.

Oh dear.! Sounds like a horrible finish to a trying time. Let hope that's the end of ti. but we both know it probably won't be, I will live with the worry for the next 11 months of getting a call to say something is no longer available. Somehow I doubt they'd let me change anything else to match a new colour/tile. I really wish they would find a way to hold the items. here in wa the standard seems to be to do all the choosing for EVERYTHING on the same day. IN our case at the same appointment. I am really impressed that some of you in the ES don't make final choices on kitchen colours, etc until just before it's due to go in. ( some builders) here's its all done months and months before. For example it won't be until at least February or March before we will have any tiling or kitchen work done but they've had our selections for 3 weeks already.
So much less stress to pick at that later stage.

Ancient Mariner, we had a similar experience which fortunately ended well: the tiles we selected in December, during a frantic 4 day selection of everything as we made a trip to the city, 4 hours drive from home, were then not available a week before laying, can we just pop into store and pick something else.
Too bad that tiles are picked to match benchtop etc, not to mention we live 4 hours drive from city, that's 8 hours round trip, no, we couldn't just pop in!!!

Girl on phone more or less kept saying but why cant you?

Sure, why not. we don't work or have a life and petrol is cheap

Anyway we were lucky to find some tiles here which we liked (actually better than original ones) and cost more or less the same.
Had to buy with our own money (and get rebate from total cost of house) and then keep them in our shed until tilers ready to lay them (fair enough, they're not covered by builders insurance.)

Anyway that was 4 weeks ago - theyr'e still in our shed, we haven't heard any more.

So much for urgent rush to pick them, tiler will be doing your house this week!!!!!

Although we are happy with overall performance of our builder, our other problem has been items not done according to final plans - several things we have picked up and fortunately for builder alerted them to these early- tap in wrong position, kitchen window wrong height, phone point in wrong position etc - like they don't read plans, or dont get given the final edition

This is a problem, one minute its available the next its not.
Choosing selections way ahead of building time, especially if the building isn’t starting soon, can be disappointing.

That’s why the building company should order what you have chosen straight away!

Ah well, I guess it hasn't been that bad compared to some stories. It's been pretty smooth really. No point in worrying about it I guess, it's all supposed to be an enjoyable experience after all (hah!).

I've just checked and we actually chose those taps back in July last year. 4 months before we even signed a contract! I don't think it's much different on the ES to WA -- all the selections have to be made far too early and in too short a timeframe. We learnt and pulled a lot of stuff out of the contract altogether. Like light fittings. We took our time, bought what we wanted and delivered them all to the sparky a couple of weeks ago. Saved a heap of money too. Same with appliances.



Yes, and that's the real issue. They just don't seem to grasp that everything is chosen around a core theme. For us, that granite was critical to everything else we chose. Changing it would have altered everything from tiles to cabinetry. And everybody will have something that makes everything else work together.

I certainly hope it's the end of it! We're only two weeks from handover.

I know the feeling. We were so fed up with that whole selection process that we gave up trying and just picked white tiles for the splashback. Never comfortable with the thought of them. When the tiler was there we talked to him and he was good enough to hold fire for a weekend.

We raced around, found a really nice tile (600 x 300), bought them and just took them up to the house for the tiler (l it's a 4-hour round trip to the site!) and we're much happier with them. The white ones are sitting in the garage -- I guess we'll find a use for them somewhere.

OK, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, just come for the ride.

OK, so the builder does it the way that Ancient Mariner suggests. That is the way most custom builders operate. An allowance is allocated for every little thing. Then selections are made as the house is built. Great, fine, IF you are dealing with clients that make selections in reasonable time frames. Imagine the number of delays and back and forth if the client is indecisive.

Selections are made early so customers have complete and upfront prices BEFORE they begin building. This suits many, many consumers. If all selections were not made, this would not be possible.

Add to the indecisive client all the "the allowance wasn't reasonable" arguments, "the allowance doesn't give us the opportunity to get us what we want." Etc, etc, etc. Every delay, every held up decision creates a snowball effect and holds up the next round of houses. Start dates are altered and the next consumers, (maybe us) are left waiting, paying interest on land, etc, etc.

Next issue, the client can choose anything = no volume purchasing prices for the builder.

Ok so the builder buys everything and has to store it everywhere. Fitouts for thousands of houses? Who is gonna foot that storage bill?

Add another million and one issues and you have one result. Higher prices. All of these extra costs created by freedom of choice during the build will be passed on to one group of people. The consumers.

The system is not ideal but I understand why it operates the way it does.

There is another option that offers far more fexibilty of choice and decisions closer to the time. Custom building.

Am I thrilled about choosing this early? No. But if it keeps my prices down, so be it.

Yes, rationally I understand the logic behind the process and I really can't disagree with what you say. Like you, cost savings are one reason we went with a volume builder.

The other side of the coin though is that the kind of incidents we (and others) experience must also add to delays and increased costs for the builder (he lost his margin on our granite for instance but he still has to cover it for his promised 18-year guarantee (theoretically anyway). It also had the effect of delaying the installation of the kitchen, and hence the tiling, electrical, plumbing etc, etc for more than 3 weeks. There's a cost there.

I guess all I'm saying is that there must be a middle way here. I don't know the answer but it seems to me that there should be a way in which both the builder and the home owner could be better served.

I suppose you can't do much about the indecisive clients you mention (and I agree it would be a problem) but I don't know that I agree about the size of the volume discounts the builder can get on specific items outweighing the potential for additional profit from a wider choice. You can score 20 to 25% off most things in the building industry -- does the builder really get all that much more? And if they do it makes their 20% margin on top of the price even more outrageous!

Fact is that when people go outside the 'standard' selections they invariably buy more expensive stuff. If your builder's tile range is say $35/m and you opt for a $50/m tile wouldn't he make more money in the end?

Maybe we could come up with a better, workable, system? Must be builders who read this forum. We might change the worldjavascript:emoticon(':)')

Pesonally I think it's all about the builder keeping you motivtated and also it helps them to start getting their processes into place.

Think about this.
Once you've chosen your colours, tile size and style etc etc - lets say the builder went out and bought everything you said -
Lots of $$$ and as joles says - storage space - even if it;s at the supplier location.

Now - you want to change you mind - but he's already bought it

Who's going to pay for the change over $$ etc etc.

In reality - the builders are juggling a whole stack of issues, and they have to provide forecasting figures to their suppliers on what they need - and they would be doing this as soon as they can - so they push you as well.

Remember some items may take up to 3 months and maybe longer lead times from the time of order till it arrives at the supplier.

And suppliers know that fashionable colours and styles also go out of vogue - so they do not buy everything that is forecast and therin ****** the shortfall issues, along with other parties such as yourself saying - Hmm we like that colour instead now - can we cvhange - so the previous forecast stock with some buffer stock is now in short supply, and what you wanted is in excess.

It's not easy folks.

You want low price, full flexability and guaranteed supply.

A tough ask indeed.

Steve

Ancient Mariner,
Yeah I agree there must be a better way, but not quite sure what it is. Always up for changing the world though!

Jo

All I want to know is what granite did you get Ancient Mariner? I love granite and yours sounds very different to the normal supply.

Mrs B

Mrs B - have a look at these.

My sister has chosen this as benchtops for her house in QLD.

http://www.cairnsmarble.com/_data/docs/CAIRNSMARBLE.pdf

Steve

Not that different really. It's called Black Forest Gold (although there's another completely different stone with the same name). You can find it here http://www.qldmg.com.au/

Not an easy site to navigate but it's the 8th sample from the left on the top row of their products link.

Not a good representation -- in real life it's actually a lot blacker with long sweeps of gold and a lot of slatey blue and greens in it. Oh and a couple of little fossils. Not for everybody but we liked it.

Actually, these guys have some lovely stone. They had two slabs with dozens of fossilised fish and leaves and stuff in it. Really spectacular. It cost $30,000 a slab!

why can't you just buy some of these things yourself, rather than expecting the builder to buy/order it?

Love to be able to buy everything and just deliver it to the site when it's needed but most volume builders are reluctant to let you do that. Supplying things like tiles and tapware etc is part of their margin.

And I guess there's also a lot of potential for cock-ups that way too.

Sure, but that's not what I'm talking about. Changing your mind on something you've chosen is not the builder's problem, it's your own. Not being able to supply something you chose because they fail to order it is the builder's problem.

The home owner should not have to face that hassle. Put it this way: if you choose a tile or something and change your mind because you found something you like better and the builder refuses to accommodate you because he's already bought the materials that's fair enough. If he can't supply the tile you chose because he didn't buy it then isn't it equally fair for you to refuse to accept an alternative without some sort of recompense?

It works both ways but there are a lot of builders who don't accept that.

It also doesn't help that they tell you (well our builder tells us) that they have ordered all of your selections ahead of time, and then turn around and cant get something cos they really didnt order it, they just told you that so they could charge you an additional $500 each time you decided you wanted to change something.

What if they hadnt been able to get the tapware that you wanted? (And I would br rightly peeved if I were the person whose now missing out)

I'd be wanting them to re-order all the tapware so its all matching from the same range, and theres no way I'd be paying more for it.

That is exactly the sort of thing that worries me, particularly as our place has been so delayed before even starting! The hardest part of building was getting those selections out of the way, it was such a relief when that was done, now if they turn around and tell me something is no longer available I certainly will be ** off like you were.

I reckon that without changing the system or anything else, a happy compromise would be that should anything not be available at the time when it's needed, we should then qualify for an automatic "upgrade" of our choice. It's only fair

I am worried that our tiles wont be available... and what will the builder do? We didn't get to chose indivual pieces, just a board with all selections on it, done by an interior designer. So, if the unthinkable happens, does their interior designer then chose another tile for us and let us know ...or will they re-do the boards again and make us chose another one.

I am praying that it is all available..... I didn't like any of the other boards they had, and if different tiles are selected to replace the unavailable ones...we may not like what they have chosen.
Just something else to worry me now I guess.