Browse Forums Building A New House 1 May 24, 2015 4:30 pm This is the first time we have built and we had nothing but troubles. This time we are complaining about the size of our perpends. They are to my standards enormous. 20-22mm. And i believe this is above standard (AS3700). We have contacted them regarding this but have been brushed off and disceieved. i have several pictures but am unsure of how to post them. The problem is write at my doorstep, not around the side or back of house. So it is very obvious. Ie the corridor to my door, Right side looks okay (10-12mm perpends) and the left side of door anyware from 10-22mm perpends. I would of course like them to rip it down and build it again but not sure what to expect. The builder has shown me a photocopied page from "guide to materials and workmanship for residential building work" and refers me to this point "20.5.2 Base masonry Base bed joints should not exceed 20mm in thickness when not in a concealed location. Unconcealed base courses of masonry should not have visible split or on edge units." As most of you are aware bed joint is horizontal mortar joint and perpend end is vertical. THis is the type of false information the builder continually tries to sell me saying my perpends are within standard. I have also got an external inspector to come have a look. and although he agrees 20mm is quite large, he doesnt think i should or im allowed to. He said the reason is because "They cant cut the types of bricks i have only face coloured bricks so when they cut it chips leaving red clay colour". I then argued about tolerances, and he since has changed his inspection report to "perpend joints 20mm builder to advise". (i think he has no backbone and doesnt want to have issues with the builder) ALTHOUGH IM PAYING HIM NEARLY $500 bucks and in the end i have to research the standards and do his job for them. i'm at a complete loss and my hope of a dream house is continually being shattered. Re: Perpend dispute with builder 2May 26, 2015 2:18 pm Sorry kenjiurban for hijacking your thread. @MattCornell: What happens if most of the perpends aren't filled? I haven't found a specific code says it has to be filled. It just seems to assume the bricklayer would fill it. Timeline: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=76782 Re: Perpend dispute with builder 3May 26, 2015 3:08 pm sofia14 Sorry kenjiurban for hijacking your thread. @MattCornell: What happens if most of the perpends aren't filled? I haven't found a specific code says it has to be filled. It just seems to assume the bricklayer would fill it. If you're talking about inner leaf walls in WA then you'll find a lot of brickies don't completely fill perpends whether std or not, as they keep saying they will get concrete render and then white set over them. Sometimes you just get small gaps when bricks that aren't 100% rectangle etc as used and sloppy workmanship. Re: Perpend dispute with builder 4May 26, 2015 4:00 pm Beazley77 sofia14 Sorry kenjiurban for hijacking your thread. @MattCornell: What happens if most of the perpends aren't filled? I haven't found a specific code says it has to be filled. It just seems to assume the bricklayer would fill it. If you're talking about inner leaf walls in WA then you'll find a lot of brickies don't completely fill perpends whether std or not, as they keep saying they will get concrete render and then white set over them. Sometimes you just get small gaps when bricks that aren't 100% rectangle etc as used and sloppy workmanship. Yes, that's what they keep saying. I understand that it will be rendered and no one would see it. However, it is the structural integrity that we are concerned about. Will it bear the load of the roof etc? Every house will have cracks when the house settling in. Without the perpends, the shear force will make the wall cracks more easily. Builder is not responsible for the crack repairing according to the contract. I am not talking about 10% of the perpends. 90% aren't filled in our case. Speaking to few engineers, it sounds like it is quite important to have them filled to prevent future structural repair. Timeline: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=76782 Re: Perpend dispute with builder 5May 26, 2015 4:06 pm I have read the as3700, the specified with should be no more than 10mm, and there is a toerleance of + and minus - 5mm so 15mm is the maximum width without, an alternative plan (engineered that way) but i assure you we dont have an alternate plan thats been engineered. My issue atm is although i have pointed this standard to the CLO of the builder he just ignores it and says our house is built to the standard. Im at my witts end.... i have contacted SA Consumer of business affairs (SA COMPLAINTS) and they have told me to state the standards in writing, contact counsel and get what they say is the standard . So far i have written an email stating the as3700 standard and tolerances. I have contacted the Counsel and they to reference the as3700 standards. CLO just emailed back and have just stated "We do not adhere to the council speciation’s, we comply to the BAC/NCC and the Masonry codes and regulations that builders around Australia have to adhere to, which the document I scanned and sent to yourself was based on". As i have said before the document they scanned and sent to me was inregards to base bed joint not perpends.... Re: Perpend dispute with builder 6May 26, 2015 4:15 pm I have also pointed out AS3700. No luck. I dont' know why there is rule when no one is following it. Timeline: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=76782 Re: Perpend dispute with builder 7May 26, 2015 5:34 pm Poor face brickwork is a question of poor workmanship and not that of engineering Common brickwork requires function of structural adequacy - that can be justified by engineering Face brickwork requires additional functionality- aesthetic appearance- question of workmanship In my view the only functionality of face brickwork over that of common brickwork is that of appearance. You pay more for brickwork and more for bricklaying so that your face walls look nice If you attempt to condemn sound but poorly looking face brickwork with engineering you will fail because well laid face brick wall of poor appearance will still be structurally sound. You need to look beyond engineering into contractual matters and legislation beyond the codes and building control. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Perpend dispute with builder 8May 26, 2015 5:41 pm In my case, it isn't the face brick (external wall) but fastwall (internal wall). Does it change the conclusion? Timeline: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=76782 Re: Perpend dispute with builder 9May 26, 2015 6:38 pm Thanks building expert, i agree with you that the brick work is still structurally sound. But appearance wise, its disgusting. can u give some insight to " beyond engineering into contractual matters and legislation beyond the codes and building control." If im reading this correctly, even though bricklaying isnt done to the standards the building company is still okay? My builder just replied stating that their houses are built to BCA/NCC (hence to me they should be built to AS3700 as the bca and ncc both refer to that standard) like all houses built in australia. Re: Perpend dispute with builder 10May 26, 2015 8:55 pm sofia14 In my case, it isn't the face brick (external wall) but fastwall (internal wall). Does it change the conclusion? No, because even if the wall is structurally adequate it also must be exhibition of good workmanship. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Perpend dispute with builder 11May 26, 2015 9:00 pm kenjiurban Thanks building expert, i agree with you that the brick work is still structurally sound. But appearance wise, its disgusting. can u give some insight to " beyond engineering into contractual matters and legislation beyond the codes and building control." If im reading this correctly, even though bricklaying isnt done to the standards the building company is still okay? My builder just replied stating that their houses are built to BCA/NCC (hence to me they should be built to AS3700 as the bca and ncc both refer to that standard) like all houses built in australia. Builder promises to build in accordance with NCC but also + skill+care+ in good and workmanship manner Satisfying one out of four promises is not OK + from what you described it does not even satisfy NCC You are right, your builder is wrong (he knows it), he is playing Poker, who is going to blink? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Perpend dispute with builder 12May 26, 2015 9:43 pm building-expert sofia14 In my case, it isn't the face brick (external wall) but fastwall (internal wall). Does it change the conclusion? No, because even if the wall is structurally adequate it also must be exhibition of good workmanship. Thanks. So does this mean that the. only way to prove if it is adequate is get an engineering report? Timeline: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=76782 Re: Perpend dispute with builder 13May 26, 2015 10:36 pm sofia14 building-expert sofia14 In my case, it isn't the face brick (external wall) but fastwall (internal wall). Does it change the conclusion? No, because even if the wall is structurally adequate it also must be exhibition of good workmanship. Thanks. So does this mean that the. only way to prove if it is adequate is get an engineering report? Don't waste your money! Victorian Guide to Standards and Tolerances has now been adopted in most states and territories (you can download it directly from VBA web site It states "3.09 Voids and holes in mortar Voids and holes in mortar in masonry walls, with the exception of weepholes and vents, are defective if they are visible from a normal viewing position." There you are, your masonry wall is defective, get builder to fix it, fire your inspector if he hasn't supported you! Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Perpend dispute with builder 14May 26, 2015 10:51 pm Sorry. Misread your previous answer. Thanks for giving me the exact section number from the VBA. We are getting an inspector in since we are not satisfied with the answer from our site supervisor. As you can read from one of the WA posters above, it is quite common in WA. I also read some similar complaints here on home one from WA clients. Everyone just let it go in the end because builder gave a lot of excuses. Such as plaster will actually strengthen the wall than mortar. I honestly don't know why these brick layering teams are still in business with so many complaints. It is such an unfortunate event to start the build with a bad relationship with the builder. Timeline: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=76782 Re: Perpend dispute with builder 15May 27, 2015 8:32 am You really need to post up some photos of this bad bricklaying. Upload the photos to a photo hosting site like Photobucket then copy the IMG tag and paste that in one of your posts here on this forum. Stewie Re: Perpend dispute with builder 16May 27, 2015 9:11 am sofia14 Such as plaster will actually strengthen the wall than mortar. The plaster/render is not taken into account in any wall strength calculations.. simply ask the builder where this is referenced in AS3700 or the engineering drawings Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Perpend dispute with builder 17May 27, 2015 3:20 pm http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn17 ... a8ezvn.jpg http://s304.photobucket.com/user/justus ... r.jpg.html http://s304.photobucket.com/user/justus ... e.jpg.html http://s304.photobucket.com/user/justus ... p.jpg.html Hope these works, sophia has her brick work photos in her timeline post i think. Re: Perpend dispute with builder 18May 27, 2015 3:59 pm kenjiurban http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/justusheng/garge%20corner2_zpspqa8ezvn.jpg http://s304.photobucket.com/user/justus ... r.jpg.html http://s304.photobucket.com/user/justus ... e.jpg.html http://s304.photobucket.com/user/justus ... p.jpg.html Hope these works, sophia has her brick work photos in her timeline post i think. Thanks for posting photos, yes you have every right to be disappointed, what I am seeing is just common brickwork with wasted money for face bricks. It's only good enough for rendering or demolition and rebuilding. By the way yes it appears structurally sound but that's not the point. I don't think any self respecting properly trained bricklayer would be proud of the brickwork and builder would not have it in his house.(he hopes you will) But it's not just perpends and beds, what about oversize infill over entry door, why could not brick rod be adjusted 10mm to work with door frame and have another row of bricks without infill? Pathetic workmanship on display Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Perpend dispute with builder 19May 27, 2015 4:06 pm I'll upload some tonight on my post about the brickwork. I have a series of new photos from this past weekend. (Sorry for hijacking your thread!) Timeline: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=76782 Re: Perpend dispute with builder 20May 27, 2015 5:20 pm With the infill do u mean the wooden board just above the glass? or the overhanging of the brick from the door? yes it does, you've just not understood it. theres a difference. 4 5331 Hi Mofflepop, I would recommend finding a building designer to prepare plans, they should design to your specified budget. The benefit is you can tender the project out… 9 20426 |