Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Aug 20, 2014 10:52 am Hi guys, This is a thread for complaining I suppose! And it's a bit cheeky of me because our builder has actually been very good until the last three weeks - we're building a two storey in Perth, slab down at end of March, roof on two weeks ago, nothing happening for the last few weeks. Anyway I've been lurking and reading all your threads, and I've seen some absolute horror stories re delays. Some are to do with title, some to do with bricklayer delays, and some to do with what sounds like builder incompetence/laziness. I work for an engineering/technology company and we are always working to a programme, usually a very tight one, with massive liquidated damages to pay if we aren't finished on time. If there's a shortage in materials or labour that's our problem to solve. It seems to me that the HIA contract is so poor, so unfair to consumers, that people are getting screwed. Builders should be professionals who commit to reasonable time frames, not put out a contract so full of loopholes that most people have no option but to wait. Builder can't get a brickie - tough luck consumer you wait. In many cases it's a matter of money - builder could get a brickie if he was willing to pay a premium but won't because it will eat into his margin. So you wait and that wait costs you money. Contracts are supposed to allocate risk to the person best able to manage that risk. The consumer/owner can't do anything about brickie shortages, but the builder at least has a reasonable chance of doing that if they are professional and responsible - i.e. plan things appropriately, don't commit to projects that you can't staff. We negotiated our liquidated damages clause and improved it a bit (ld's kick in 375 days from slab down) which gives the builder loads of time but protects us if they decided to take the mick. Far from perfect and I'd like it to be better, but somewhat useful worst case scenario. From some of the posts here it sounds like a lot of people have no LD clause, or a crazily long one. Finally, I can't help but wonder about builder efficiency with scheduling. It seems to me that many/most houses under construction will have very long periods where no work is being carried out. I don't mean necessary delays, like time required for slab to set etc, but weeks and weeks between work, particularly after lock up. This to me seems incredibly unnecessary. Anyone have any thoughts? Re: Builder Delays 3Aug 20, 2014 1:09 pm Hi there, I did see your post - you poor thing, you must be so frustrated! Did your builder use the HIA contract? Did you check section 9b of the Schedule of Particulars on the off chance that LD's have been included? The problem with the HIA contract is that it is not fair. It was written by a builder's representative body with no input from any consumer organisation, to my knowledge. Anyone know more about that who can correct me? I'm from Ireland originally and the standard building contract there was negotiated between the Law Society (representing the consumer) and the builder's representative body, so it balances the interests of both parties. I've been a bit surprised that builders get away with using the HIA contract over here .... Re: Builder Delays 4Aug 20, 2014 2:25 pm Hi Maggie10, They have indeed used the HIA contract and I'm going to check when I get home regarding the clause! This has been such a big learning curve - if anything, mistakes that I won't beer again make in the future. Re: Builder Delays 6Aug 20, 2014 3:11 pm That is disappointing, but you know, looking again at the standard HIA contract I'm not sure if would have done you much good. Under the HIA builders are entitled to an Extension of Time for a voluminous list of reasons, included item (v) - 'any delay in the supplies of materials or transport or labour.' So your builder can simply claim that he couldn't source a tradie and good luck trying to prove that he could have. This to me is farcical. Again in the contracts we enter into at my job, there is no way we would get away with that. We are hired to do a job, it is up to us to get our supply chain and our labour right. That is, ultimately, what we are paid for. Another problematic clause is the one that allows the builder an extension of time if you do not pay them on time. On the face of it that seems fair, but in reality the builder will use that as a stick to make you pay them for poor quality work. That is why all standard contracts for major construction works all over the world (NEC contracts, JTC contracts, all the contracts used by public bodies like Main Roads or the PTA) require the construction company to keep working even if there is a dispute over payment. There are checks and balances to make sure that this cannot be abused. Lots of other clauses would cause problems and would not generally be acceptable in industry contracts - things like 'the builder is satisfied that X has been done' etc should read 'X has been done'. It should not be subjective but objective. I suppose what I am saying is that the system is stacked against you from the beginning. It really shouldn't be this way and I don't understand why the HIA contract is so acceptable in the market. It really is grossly unfair. We're getting a pool and the standard pool contract was just as crazy. Stuff like the risk in the pool etc passes to you on delivery, not post installation. So if the pool contractor drops the pool when he is craning it in, legally the resulting damage (to the pool as well as everything else) is your problem not his. We changed this so that risk does not pass to us until Practical Completion, but I can only imagine how many pool contracts are signed without people being aware of this. Sorry for my very long rant ...I've been thinking about this stuff for a long time and am really interested to know what other people think .... Re: Builder Delays 7Aug 20, 2014 5:40 pm We are also building and its been 8 months now and we havent even started yet, just getting through the admin stage has been one delay after another, I even have email read receipts from the sales guy as proof he did read my emails (he never answers his phone), its a large project home builder and you would think they would have things down pat by now but whenever I ask him about anything its just someone else has done something wrong, he even claimed he tried calling me but got the no wrong but it was someone with the same name as me that just happened to be building with them also, I just wish things would go a lot smoother, its frustrating that the neighbor who signed their contract on the same day as us is over half way finished, we were both hoping to be having a joint bbq by xmas but I cant see any way possible we will be in our place by then, I have my hopes up for easter next year fingers crossed! Re: Builder Delays 8Sep 19, 2014 3:01 pm Maggie10, thanks for raising this issue. I have just been going through my contract and it galls me just how skewed in the builders favour it is, it's ridiculous. Once you sign they have you over a barrel pretty much and that contract will protect them against almost everything especially build timeframe. I think the reason they get away with it too is because a lot of people just don't really sit down and read this contract because they assume it will be 'fair'. My builder has put in a clause that they are not liable for any damage to neighbouring properties nor to the council curb or footpath! Needless to say I am definitely questioning this. I have also noticed there is no clause for liquidated damages. Re: Builder Delays 9Sep 19, 2014 7:06 pm Hi Scottsdale, Yes I completely agree. We had the clause about neighbouring property too and negotiated some changes to it - ended up with something not quite as bad although still not fantastic. The liquidated damages clause is part of the main contract but it is not effective unless the right part of one of the schedules is filled in - I don't have my contract here but I think it might be called the 'Particulars'. I suppose again my issue with the whole thing is that in WA way fewer people use solicitors to do the contract for them when they are building than in Ireland - in Ireland virtually every building transaction goes through a solicitor. I really like the fact that in WA you avoid a lot of unnecessary red tape so I wouldn't exactly recommend the Irish system, but it does amaze me that everyone uses the HIA contract without questioning this - it was written by a builder's rep group for builders. Our own builder has been very good really, but this is luck really. I've read so many horror stories on this forum and in the vast majority of cases it seems that there is little a purchaser can do - it's a case of tough luck because they have a crappy contract. Scottsdale if you have not signed yet I would really take my time and negotiate hard on any clauses that concern you. If the builder explains away clauses by saying they don't enforce this or that or that they interpret a clause differently, ask them to put it all in writing, then I suggest that you put these comments in the form of Special Conditions (you can use plain language here, no need for legalese as long as the meaning is clear) and ask them to add them to the contract. Re: Builder Delays 10Sep 19, 2014 9:32 pm Thanks for the advice Maggie10, I have had my contracts for the better part of two weeks and have studied them, as we all should really. It's definitely worth questioning anything you aren't happy with. Glad to hear you reached some form of consensus re. neighbouring property. 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