Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Aug 14, 2014 9:38 am Hi everyone, Long time lurker and follower of this forum. For the last two years we have been thinking and planning on how best to go through our home building adventure! I think we are about 9 months away from taking the plunge. Question to those more enlightened that I am on whether my starting point/hypothesis is likely to hold up ... My starting point/hypothesis: It is possible to build a bespoke/custom design home for just a tad more than what a medium/high end project home would cost. To keep the costs down to where I want (or should I say - what we can afford), I am thinking about negotiating and purchasing electrical appliances, flooring, bathroom fixtures, etc. Really keen to hear your thoughts. Cheers. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 2Aug 14, 2014 10:30 am Ok I kinda went that route. It will end up costing what a higher end build will cost because you will spec up otherwise you end up with a custom project like house. Project builders let you supply flooring and aircon. I am supplying appliances and a few bathroom fittings. I got the builder to price things up and to be honest they are not much cheaper or do not add up to a large saving in relation to the amount being spent on the build. For example, saving 1500 on bathroom fittings may sound a lot but it would be a small amount compared to the build cost and an enormous amount of hassle. This is where knowing your prices comes in handy so you can challenge the upgrade price. In a number of instances the change over cost to higher end specs was very reasonable. Of course there are some where you absolutely cop it between the eyes. Depends on the design and what level of finishes you want. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 3Aug 14, 2014 10:34 am In my opinion, you can do it as long as you're willing to do a lot of work yourself & don't mind waiting until you can finish the various bits you can do. This means you have to accept the work you put in as a "hobby" and not to have any monetary value otherwise (ie. it has to be time you wouldn't otherwise spend generating an income). If you're not going the owner-builder route, then I personally think you'll be struggling. But there are always exceptions. If your idea of a high-end project home build includes all custom fittings & doors & appliances & flooring & windows etc, then I think you can probably do it more cheaply with a completely custom build - but if your idea of a high-end project home build is mostly the standard offerings from a project builder who positions themselves at the upper end of the market, then the project home will be cheaper. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 4Aug 14, 2014 10:45 am How can you buy all this cheaper than builder who gets volume discounts? If your builder knows you are trying to save by edging him out on buying margins he will simply build in margins elsewhere with a good premium for having to put up with the risk of you supplying goods. Will you save? No way (even though you think you may have) If you want bespoke/custom designed home you should be able to afford it or else go to volume builder We all want something we can't afford Real problem is when people want something without paying for it Premium build = premium price. Just reality. If it seems brutal the way I write it is only to save you from wasting your time and probable huge disappointment later. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 5Aug 14, 2014 11:08 am building-expert How can you buy all this cheaper than builder who gets volume discounts? If your builder knows you are trying to save by edging him out on buying margins he will simply build in margins elsewhere with a good premium for having to put up with the risk of you supplying goods. Premium build = premium price. Just reality. You beat me to it, our plumbing would have costed almost double if we haven't gone with a builder who gets volume discounts, the best Reece could offer us was 10% off the marked price. You don't have to pay a premium price for a premium build, as you've shown me Branko, all we had to do was hire you Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 6Aug 14, 2014 11:13 am Jackula You beat me to it, our plumbing would have costed almost double if we haven't gone with a builder who gets volume discounts, the best Reece could offer us was 10% off the marked price. The flipside of that is that you can probably do a LOT better than Reece as a plumbing supplier, if you're sourcing your own stuff. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 7Aug 14, 2014 11:42 am I think that if you weigh up the margin versus the hassle sometimes it is worth paying the margin to avoid the hassle. This holds unless you are approaching it like a hobby as suggested above. Builder will make up their lost margin to a certain extent along the way. Need to look at the big ticket items where they will use a contractor to do the work. Exposed Agg Driveway is a good example, why pay builders margin when all they are doing is getting a contractor to do the work. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 8Aug 14, 2014 11:56 am Forg Jackula You beat me to it, our plumbing would have costed almost double if we haven't gone with a builder who gets volume discounts, the best Reece could offer us was 10% off the marked price. The flipside of that is that you can probably do a LOT better than Reece as a plumbing supplier, if you're sourcing your own stuff. Out of interest, we went to Harvey Norman, Bunnings, Ikea and couldn't find much difference between them and Reece. We found some of Reece's ranges are impressive to say the least, especially their Gessi Transparenze, Methven Aroha, Teknobili Loop. Then again, I admit we're not that knowledgeable in plumbing products, care to share a few links? Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 9Aug 14, 2014 12:04 pm This is great stuff! Building-expert - Appreciate the brutality. Hence my question directed at the more enlightened ones My other half and I are definitely leaning towards a custom builder. AussieMark - To your point, it definitely looks like level of finish will be a big factor in the overall cost. With some of the things we are trying to procure - we are considering items from overseas (now a well trod path - Bundy's blog on Whirlpool has been a huge inspiration). Cost savings on European appliances and bathroom fixtures seem to average around 25% if you ignore the organisation & planning time required. http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-re ... 14240&p=17 Now exploring whether a direct import of flooring, doors, etc (sustainable/ethical sources of course) from Asia would stack up financially. If both these elements stack up, I reckon I could knock off $30K to $50K off the build cost. One of the things I learnt recently is that there is a difference in the builders premium between project builders and custom builders - The project builders we have met are around the 20%-25% and the Custom builders we have spoken to range from NIL to 15% (Sydney). That said, The point around builders just pricing the premium elsewhere is the pricing is quite valid. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 10Aug 14, 2014 12:20 pm The builders that are charging Nil premium are the ones that are going bust! The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 11Aug 14, 2014 12:23 pm Any thoughts on how you can keep a lid on potential cost blowout from the design itself (if it is done by an architect)? My thinking here is design, labour and materials all contribute to end cost. If we took the materials (ie: procuring items, etc) out of the equation - are there any particular aspects of the design which Architects tend to favour that is likely to drive the cost of the build up wayyyy more than a project home. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 12Aug 14, 2014 12:25 pm Although importing may be a well trodden path you need to weigh up the warranty issues and australian compliance issues that may come up for plumbing. Also IIRC the whirlpool blog was an owner builder I thought. If you are looking for a builder to do this your scheduling will need to be very good as you will have to store the items until they are necessary and you will also be charged for installing them as it will be claimed that they are not standard and therefore it costs more to install. BS I think but its like it or lump it. Just remember that there is risk involved with the 30 to 50K you potentially save because things can and do go wrong. I looked into getting my kitchen appliances from overseas and ended up waiting to get a deal when it cam e up, best still the place where I purchased them is holding them until I need them. Flooring and tiling I am sure you can get deals if you look. Remember its not the product per se that is expensive, its the labour to lay and fit. Doors - I don't think you will save much especially if there is an issue with them. Not trying to be a hater but the logistics of pulling all these things together is the reason building companies are there. It is a nightmare, but potential to payoff is there for sure. I still think if the bones of the building are at a good price and the major items are done direct I am not sure you will save massively on things unless you are loading up on ultra high end. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 13Aug 14, 2014 12:36 pm Jackula Out of interest, we went to Harvey Norman, Bunnings, Ikea and couldn't find much difference between them and Reece. We found some of Reece's ranges are impressive to say the least, especially their Gessi Transparenze, Methven Aroha, Teknobili Loop. Then again, I admit we're not that knowledgeable in plumbing products, care to share a few links? Sorry, I don't actually know any myself; but the places you mentioned are all really all retail, you probably want places that prefer to deal to tradies in bulk & who have no sales people of any sort. A plumber is probably the best person to talk to! AussieMark Although importing may be a well trodden path you need to weigh up the warranty issues and australian compliance issues that may come up for plumbing. An example I can give - tiling. The tiles we chose were made in China (I know because shortly after we chose them I found them advertised on Ali Baba ). Nearly a year after we'd chosen them, the tilers went to lay them - and the entire batch was bowed. That was for the builder & tiler to sort out, not us. Imagine trying to get 6 pallets of tiles back to a factory in China & get your money back? Not to mention if you were owner-buildering & had booked a half-dozen tilers in for 3 weeks, and they had nothing to do - that'd either get really expensive or you'd have to look for different tilers 'cos they'd be super grumpy when you cancel them at the last minute. Windows are another one. Kevin McCloud will point at some huge bespoke house & say "and this place has 10 thousand pounds' worth of triple-glazed super-insulated windows!" as though that's a Huge Cost, and we'll flinch because of how much more we paid than that to get some proper double-glazed ones into our generic McMansion here. But even if paying only 20% for the windows, it's a big risk paying all those import costs etc & then trying to send them back to Germany if they're busted ... Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 14Aug 14, 2014 1:02 pm Yep I purchased all neff items and got the top range 90cm induction, slide and hide oven, large warmer and micro. Because if the offer I got two dishwashers thrown in and a bunch of freebies. Also because I purchased it all they have a super discount on a schweigen BBQ range hood. My double glazing us only around 12k upgrade cost over builders spec (which is pretty high) and I have lots of windows. Where I saved decent amounts were on shower heads, around 2k, tiling, around heaps as I am using stone, electrical around 4k just by going standard range. All my rellies are spakies and they advised to go standard and they would sort out any upgrades where needed. I also challenged many prices and on numerous occasions the builder came back with better prices. If course there were also plenty where I am paying a premium but on balance I am ok. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 15Aug 14, 2014 1:38 pm AussieMark - Did you go down the custom builder route or did you go with a project builder? Did you do much to influence the design/layout/floorplan?? The block we have faces North East (street) and has a large frontage. So likely lots of north facing glazing for us Forg - Don't get me started on double glazing prices here. Admittedly, it has gotten a bit better over the last couple of years. But the moment you start adding wishlist items like low-e, large size or (heaven forbid) bi-folds - you are in for a pretty interesting ride! We are going through the process of having the initial concept/floor plan done by an Architect but nervous about going too far down the track without having a sense on likely budget. So we have worked out an engagement with ther Architect where we can disconnect after the concept phase if we want to and go down the draftsman+builder route or a customised project home route. Still kinda nervous as we need to be able to tell what design elements are likely to drive up the build cost ... Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 16Aug 14, 2014 2:10 pm Be careful if you're going double-glazing, 'cos the actual double-glazing isn't the be-all & end-all. We didn't want the ongoing maintenance of wood frames, and no project builder would use a window supplier who did UPVC (apart from Itchy Joe & we weren't excited by the finish of their display homes). So using aluminium, it was expensive to get proper thermally-broken window frames where the heat doesn't leak out the frames themselves. Stegbar has a product that's wood on the inside & aluminium on the outside which is probably as good; but our builder doesn't use Stegbar (something my wife's happy about because she didn't like the look of those windows anyway - she has a thing for commercial-look aluminium frames for some reason ). Unless you've got noise issues, and if you're using aluminium frames, it's probably a bit pointless to go for double-glazing unless you're getting thermally broken frames too (noting that most wood & UPVC frames already are thermally broken as those materials don't conduct heat well). Without those frames I'd just have gone for treated single-glazed glass. Hey if the architect can't give you a cost on what's been designed, what does a quantity surveyor cost? Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 17Aug 14, 2014 2:24 pm Architects do try and give you an indication of probable cost - but I don't think there is any "skin in the game". Most builders we speak to dismiss the Architects' notion of cost. Quantity surveyors are an interesting breed (based on the handful I have spoken to). At the concept stage, they reuse estimates per sqm based on low, medium or high quality of finish. This is very close to the guidance put out by ArchiCentre. I can (kind of) do that myself ... So, I did not think there was value for money from Quantity Surveyors at the Concept stage. They become more useful when the DA drawings are done and a lot more useful when the construction drawings are done. Some of the more professional ones at the detailed design stage start creating a list of materials and labour and actually start estimating the cost. We are taking our concept design to builders and asking them: 1. What aspects of the design you see on this page would drive the cost up for you? 2. Based on your 'normal' finishes where do you think the cost will likely land up Some of the builders play coy - others are quite willing/open to have a conversation. So in terms of estimating cost at the conceptual stage - between an architect, quantity surveyor or a builder - I think there is not much to separate them. I am tilting towards the opinion from the builders (school of hard knocks). Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 18Aug 14, 2014 2:35 pm Ok originally made lots if changes to the builders design. They are part of a bigger group and aim at the higher end. We had so many changes that I ended up drawing my own plan on some software and presenting that. The block is in an established neighborhood so there are only so many ways to orient. So it is a custom build and will more than like be similar to a custom price. The double glazing I am having is double thermally broken aluminum with hidden hinges and 6.38mm glass. Although the neighborhood is quiet I wanted the efficiency and fit of tilt and turn. At the end of the day I wanted a house that has large living and entertaining spaces with a decent kitchen and theatre. I also wanted a garage/ workshop. Perth is expensive but I do not believe I am ovecapilizing for the area. We will see..... Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 19Aug 14, 2014 4:36 pm Forg Hey if the architect can't give you a cost on what's been designed, what does a quantity surveyor cost? Based on the ones we have looked at, it appears as if Quantity Surveyor costs range from $1500 to about $4000 on a project budget of about $500K. Most of them came in around the $2500 mark. Typically, this covers two assessments: First one at the Concept stage and the Second one at the Construction drawing level. Re: Architect/bespoke design for (almost) the cost of a proj 20Aug 14, 2014 4:47 pm Not too many people having a go at the poll Any thoughts on how you can keep a lid on potential cost blowout from the design itself (if it is done by an architect)? My thinking here is design, labour and materials all contribute to end cost. If we took the materials (ie: procuring items, etc) out of the equation - are there any particular aspects of the design which Architects tend to favour that is likely to drive the cost of the build up wayyyy more than a project home. Your build is relatively simple, I believe your job can be easily done by a good building designer, you really do not need to pay for the architect. Remember, architect's… 3 10989 I've just had a look at the website. The company are just building broker's. There are plenty of similar companies that basically draw your plans (they own them so you… 8 10943 DIY, Home Maintenance & Repair That laser level looks lovely! 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