VCAT, owner wins damages for garage slab heave!

building-expert · Aug 06, 2014 9:43 pm

I appeared in VCAT as expert witness for owner who engaged concrete contractor for driveway and paving to side and rear of garage. Paving was laid to wrong levels partially blocking weep holes and had insufficient slope allowing water to flow back and pool against slab edge. This caused slab heave in garage and corner of dwelling. My expert evidence was that because paving was defective it caused slab heave and the remedy was demolition and reconstruction of paving and partial demolition and reconstruction of garage slab. Additionally section of drive was to be replaced because no expansion joint had been used against brick dwelling.
I also prepared estimate of cost to rectify defects.

Owner was awarded a very substantial damages generally in line with my recommendations.

Slab Heave Recipient · Aug 06, 2014 10:42 pm

Fantastic result. Not only for the client but for all that are experiencing slab heave. What type of drainage was recommended for this area of a dwelling. Once the concrete has been lowered to standard would that create a difference in height between the existing slab in the garage and that either side of the slab?

Crazyk · Aug 06, 2014 11:20 pm

Question...is a concreting contractor expected by law to know what grade to lay a slab right next to the house? ie 1/50

SaveH2O · Aug 07, 2014 2:04 am

Crazyk

Question...is a concreting contractor expected by law to know what grade to lay a slab right next to the house? ie 1/50

It is a 1:20 slope, i.e., 50 mm over 1 metre. If you are in a low rainfall area (a 1:20 ARI of 120 mm/hr or less), a 25 mm drop over 1 metre is allowed.

Not sure about ""by law"" but if they are licensed, they are expected to know the industry Standards.

Trouble is...a lot don't and a lot aren't licensed.

http://www.**.com.au/ state under concreting...

Licensing of Concreters

As is true of other trades, concreters are licensed on a state-by-state basis. In order to ensure all concreters adhere to nationally recognised standards, similar training and experience is required in every state before a concreting licence is issued. Licensing policies differ between the states. Scroll down to find out more about licensing of concreters in your state or territory.

Click link to continue reading the above... http://www.**.com.au/licensed/concreter

building-expert · Aug 07, 2014 6:48 am

Crazyk

Question...is a concreting contractor expected by law to know what grade to lay a slab right next to the house? ie 1/50

Building work in Victoria (unless exempted by schedule 8 of building regulations) is required to comply with BCA
That is the law
If then someone builds and the works are non compliant the works are defective.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

To put it another way
Would you expect qualified concrete contractor skilled in his art to know what regulations are regarding levels and grades?

There is your answer.

building-expert · Aug 07, 2014 6:57 am

Slab Heave Recipient

Fantastic result. Not only for the client but for all that are experiencing slab heave. What type of drainage was recommended for this area of a dwelling. Once the concrete has been lowered to standard would that create a difference in height between the existing slab in the garage and that either side of the slab?

Drainage was not an issue, only surface drainage. The corner of the home cannot be fixed but luckily it was where once the paving is reconstructed it will stabilise and the problem will be largely imperceptible. Once section of garage is rebuilt you will never know.

Crazyk · Aug 07, 2014 8:08 am

My concern is that I think concreting is one of those trades that would have more unlicensed people than say electricians and in which case I don't believe the normal person would expect this. As with all trades, unless your trying to do a cheapie, you'd expect them to have the relevant qualifications for the work.
So in a court of law, would the onus fall back on the owner for not checking licenses?

Quite an eye opener for me.

bpratt · Aug 07, 2014 9:34 am

It is only the owner that is licenced, he can get whoever he wants as labourers, but they all go under his licence and it is he who is responsible.... just like all other trades, i.e. plumbing, electrical, etc.

So yes, more unlicenced labourers on a concreting job, but it is still the principle that is licenced.

Liliana · Aug 07, 2014 9:46 am

Whether concreters need to be licensed or not came up in this thread a while back:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=70889

The link on whalish's post at that time took you to a page which said that concreters in Victoria had to be licensed which surprised me at the time because the great majority of concreters in Victoria are not licensed. Either I've become blind or there have been some changes to the licenced.trades.com.au website since then because I can't seem to find the same information there now???

The job guide prepared by the Federal Government (http://www.jobguide.thegoodguides.com.a ... creter/VIC) definitely says:

You can work as a concreter without formal qualifications. You will probably get some informal training on the job.

Given that even licensed trades don't even know their stuff it might be time for the VBA to insist on a bit more training and professional development in the construction industry.

nectar · Aug 07, 2014 11:11 am

Great work Building Expert a win for the little people that hopefully sets the rules for others. Still no ruling from our hearing 10 days ago at NCAT...let's hope we have the same success at it the same principal really!

StructuralBIMGuy · Aug 07, 2014 11:15 am

building-expert

That is the law
If then someone builds and the works are non compliant the works are defective.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Maybe 10 years ago...Things are changing Engineers make a good living out of using data, simulations and technology certifying non compliance.
What happens to old buildings that arent compliant. There's a big market for used bricks in renos ever asked why.
At times the law is an a**

building-expert

To put it another way
Would you expect qualified concrete contractor skilled in his art to know what regulations are regarding levels and grades?

There is your answer.

ART & Craft is not a qualification nor is it certifiable.
We could probably argue that over a beer but arguing that in court IMO.. no one wins and the civil courts are full.
As I say its "layers on Layers" ::lol::

AussieMark · Aug 07, 2014 11:53 am

@Structural, I think BEs point is valid. If you are employing a company who is licensed to undertake a job then it is reasonable to expect that said job would be compliant with the relevant laws and regulations. We all know BE is not referring to ART and Craft but the profession or trade the person is certified in.

Not sure about the used bricks piece and would expect some sort of QA to be done on them before recycling but really not sure.

I think that in today's age with computer simulations etc it is even more important that trades and professions be on their game and up to par. I think that it is crazy how much slack the building industry gets and how many substandard jobs are accepted just "because that is the way it is"

Also I have no sympathy for anyone trying to take the cheap way out using unlicensed trades etc or doing cash in hand jobs with no paperwork. Not wishing peril on anyone but you get what you pay for.

nectar · Aug 07, 2014 12:31 pm

StructuralBIMGuy can I ask please if an engineer inspects a slab during the build for steel what else do they check? Do they have to report it if the boxed up height was wrong by 590mm too high - so not just a minor error that could go unnoticed - a massively obvious error? So if they then incorrectly gave a go ahead to the concrete guys to pour who is the governing body for Engineers to advise them of their shifty work in NSW? Is it Fair Trading?

Stewie D · Aug 07, 2014 1:11 pm

The structural engineer just checks to make sure the right grade reo has been installed at the right spacings, that the footings and slab are to the right thickness and that there is sufficient "cover" all round for the steel. They don't check that the slab is in the right spot, to the right dimensions nor at the right height. That is up to the builder. The certifier may pick them up on it later when the overall roof height is too high but by then it is all too late isn't it and the builder will try and get out of it some how.

Stewie

nectar · Aug 07, 2014 1:38 pm

Thanks Stewie, I thought as much. Still getting to the bottom of who did what job and what was their part and responsibility in letting the slab be constructed.
The builder is a liar and a thief as is his earth moving contractor who also fibbed under oath in Tribunal...the concretor did not lie at all and if anyone wants a referral of an honest good slab builder in NSW let me know - the other pair - I wouldn't trust them build a dog house correctly and well they need to go on A Current Affair and then to jail quite frankly.

insider · Aug 07, 2014 8:02 pm

Good win BE hopefully the verdict will go out to the paving industry and they will start to get the message.Still not sure about partial demolition of a slab and how that would work maybe StructuralBIMGuy , Mat Cornell or other engineers could comment.

building-expert · Aug 07, 2014 8:37 pm

insider

Good win BE hopefully the verdict will go out to the paving industry and they will start to get the message.Still not sure about partial demolition of a slab and how that would work maybe StructuralBIMGuy , Mat Cornell or other engineers could comment.

Sometimes there are no happy endings and sometimes there are no pretty solutions however in this case it's as good as it gets.
I might add that neither engineers or lawyers were needed.
My client is an educated man and has been able to articulate his case and was backed up by the best expert evidence.

insider · Aug 07, 2014 9:13 pm

Yes possibly the tide is turning we need cases like yours publicized.Did the concretor put up much of a fight

building-expert · Aug 07, 2014 9:51 pm

insider

Yes possibly the tide is turning we need cases like yours publicized.Did the concretor put up much of a fight

Yes he did and I thought that he did the best he possibly could have however he was relying on cement and concrete association guidelines that are in conflict with BCA and lost. He did not have expert evidence however my guess is it would not have mattered if he did.

As it is defective concrete paving and drainage are the most common defects in new homes and we need to re educate builders and concrete contractors in compliance matters.

Lex · Aug 07, 2014 10:05 pm

Brilliant !!!!

Well done!!!

Do you also know for how long it was being left like that (defective)? Or did the owner take any quick fix (band aid) actions or improvisations in order to prevent rain (surface) water going under the slab, once he noticed some issues?