Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Jul 03, 2014 1:09 pm Hi all Has anyone obtained public liability insurance for their vacant block to cover during the period of it being vacant, or even through a build process? If so, who did you use and do you mind sharing the cost and liability cover value? It not, why not? I'm not really convinced it is needed if its a bare block with no structures/hazards etc, but what would i know?! Thank you for reading! Re: Vacant Land Insurance 2Jul 03, 2014 1:22 pm A lot of Contents insurance policies (what you would have for your current home) have an extension in the section for Public Liability cover, for any blocks of vacant land that you may own. It is important to check the PDS to make sure it is included. The cover does cease once building commences, however then your builders insurance should cover Public Liability issues as they then become responsible for the site and construction. Personal liability is a growing concern as we turn more and more into a litigious society, much like the USA. There are underwriters that do offer vacant land liability products, and from memory premiums sit around or under $200 per year. The Insurance Council of Australia (ICA) can offer some assistance via their website with links to companies, or an insurance broker should be able to point you in the right direction. Thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66299 Slab: 16/6/14 Frame: 4/7/14 Roof: 22/7/14 Lock Up: 20/8/14 Fixing: 26/8/14 PCI: 9/10/14 Handover: 20/10/14 Re: Vacant Land Insurance 3Jul 03, 2014 1:49 pm Dont waste your time here. Even if you did have Public liability insurance and someone did hurt them selves the only person protect here is the person who hurts themselves. They will get money straight away. The insurance company will then get their lawyers onto you and bleed you dry. Public liability protects the person getting hurt not the person that was negligent. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 4Jul 03, 2014 2:01 pm B STAR Dont waste your time here. Even if you did have Public liability insurance and someone did hurt them selves the only person protect here is the person who hurts themselves. They will get money straight away. The insurance company will then get their lawyers onto you and bleed you dry. Public liability protects the person getting hurt not the person that was negligent. I won't go in to it... But not necessarily correct. But i'd be here all day explaining and really don't have the energy to go in to the ins and outs of liability and the potential of subrogation, when it applies, when it doesn't, what is deemed as negligent etc. but all I'll say is that Liability cover isn't always a waste of time. Maybe, potentially not a big worry for a small risk on a vacant block, but not in general. Thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66299 Slab: 16/6/14 Frame: 4/7/14 Roof: 22/7/14 Lock Up: 20/8/14 Fixing: 26/8/14 PCI: 9/10/14 Handover: 20/10/14 Re: Vacant Land Insurance 5Jul 03, 2014 2:59 pm deluxes B STAR Dont waste your time here. Even if you did have Public liability insurance and someone did hurt them selves the only person protect here is the person who hurts themselves. They will get money straight away. The insurance company will then get their lawyers onto you and bleed you dry. Public liability protects the person getting hurt not the person that was negligent. I won't go in to it... But not necessarily correct. But i'd be here all day explaining and really don't have the energy to go in to the ins and outs of liability and the potential of subrogation, when it applies, when it doesn't, what is deemed as negligent etc. but all I'll say is that Liability cover isn't always a waste of time. Maybe, potentially not a big worry for a small risk on a vacant block, but not in general. I would love to know more. In the context of land I was though this was the case. Well this is what I was thought when I did my builders course. The reason being is if you where correct then builders etc will not give a crap about safety and say oh well I am insured etc. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 6Jul 03, 2014 3:11 pm B STAR Even if you did have Public liability insurance and someone did hurt them selves the only person protect here is the person who hurts themselves. They will get money straight away. The insurance company will then get their lawyers onto you and bleed you dry. Public liability protects the person getting hurt not the person that was negligent. ah, no. I either htink your building course oversimplified (dangerously) the concept, or youve misunderstood. Either way, you did a building course, not a law degree or a tier one financial product ceritification to be able to make this statment. Not belitteling the building course, just highlighting that you are neither qualified to make this statement or provide this type of advice after completing your course. You however, can chose whatever insurance cover you wish to risk during the course of your endeavours Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 7Jul 03, 2014 3:13 pm OP, I agree with Deluxes in that the risk may be negligiable - although if youre worried you might want to seek personal advice from somone qualified. This may be important depending on the block - EG extreme slope down from the footpath where some one may slip, fall down your slope and hurt themselves on your land. Just a thought. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 8Jul 03, 2014 3:29 pm I just don't get it guys. What are your backgrounds? I am sure if you ask lawyers they will in deed over complicate it. I am sorry but I just don't see how you could be made liable for someone falling on your property. And if they did, what is stopping the insurance companies from trying to get the monies from the owner after they hypothetically paid out the person who slipped. Just by having "insurance" you dont eliminate your risk or your liability. It doesn't work like car insurance thats for sure. If I was a builder and had insurance when someone has hurt themselves on my site I still am liable. If I had no money the person who got hurt will be paid out straight away by the insurance company. Then the insurance company will seek money from me. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 9Jul 03, 2014 3:38 pm A standard condition is normally "Breaching or failing to comply" or similar, in regards to not covering a claim in which a builder/owner failed to adhere to rules and regulations which could have contributed to the accident in question. So that's what protects against builders being hap-hazard with safety requirements and adhering to procedure, because the claim can just be denied from the outset. If this is the case, the insurer will just deny the Liability claim and the claimant will then pursue the owner/builder civilly for the damages. Rather than accepting a claim, paying out the claimant and then suing the owner for being negligent. It's in the insurers best interest financially to be able to deny a liability claim under a breach of those conditions, stay out of it and save thousands of $$ in legal fees in the process. For vacant land most domestic policies expire once construction commences, as the risk profile then increases exponentially. Whereas, for vacant land, in it's natural state - just being land, doesn't carry much risk, bar someone say tripping over a stick and falling and suing. Then comes the proving that the owner is liable for that stick, was the stick supposed to be there, was the stick deliberately positioned in a way to hurt the claimant, was the stick compliant etc etc etc. Because they own the said land, the onus will fall back on the owner - but they wont always be deemed negligent or not complying with any rules that attributed to that person tripping over that said stick for example. Long story short, it comes down to establishing a claim... the claimant needs to establish an event happened, the owner needs to establish to the insurer that said event is covered and conditions met under their policy terms and then then the payment can/will be made (after much investigation). PDS terms and conditions are key. Thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66299 Slab: 16/6/14 Frame: 4/7/14 Roof: 22/7/14 Lock Up: 20/8/14 Fixing: 26/8/14 PCI: 9/10/14 Handover: 20/10/14 Re: Vacant Land Insurance 10Jul 03, 2014 3:46 pm B STAR If I was a builder and had insurance when someone has hurt themselves on my site I still am liable. If I had no money the person who got hurt will be paid out straight away by the insurance company. Then the insurance company will seek money from me. If you were negligent (ie: not abiding by rules, OH&S) as the builder the insurer wouldn't pay the claim, full stop. They would back away, and the person would come at you and you would be stuck defending it. However, if you weren't negligent, only liable (simply by being the owner) and all policy conditions were met, just the fact that someone had a genuine accident and the buck stops with you, then the claim would be paid. There would be no recourse for the insurer to then sue you the owner, their client for being negligent. They just will deny to indemnify from the outset when establishing a claim. I've been in insurance for 12 years, have a degree in Business and Finance (General Insurance) and work quite closely with the relevant legislations and compliance as part of my day to day work as a Risk Analyst for a major insurer. I am not the keeper of all knowledge (we all learn every day!) and the thing with insurance is that there are MANY variables to a situation. This is just a general guide of how this type of situation would be looked at. Thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66299 Slab: 16/6/14 Frame: 4/7/14 Roof: 22/7/14 Lock Up: 20/8/14 Fixing: 26/8/14 PCI: 9/10/14 Handover: 20/10/14 Re: Vacant Land Insurance 11Jul 03, 2014 3:47 pm B STAR I just don't get it guys. What are your backgrounds? I am sure if you ask lawyers they will in deed over complicate it. I am sorry but I just don't see how you could be made liable for someone falling on your property. And if they did, what is stopping the insurance companies from trying to get the monies from the owner after they hypothetically paid out the person who slipped. Just by having "insurance" you dont eliminate your risk or your liability. It doesn't work like car insurance thats for sure. Hypothetical scenario – You own a block that has a steep fall from the foot path. At the bottom of your block is a dam. Now as a responsible person you erected a fence to prevent an accident occurring, such as someone falling down your slope into the dam and drowning. Fast forward to a windy day where a child is riding their bike past your block. A freak gust pushes them of their bike, through your fence, down the slope and the child drown in the dam. Your liability insurance will cover you, as you have taken all reasonable precautions to prevent that type of accident occurring. There are many variables here – e.g. the quality of the fence etc. that may still result in you being liable or seen as negligent and you being sued, however in a reasonable society, where you didn’t cheap out on a fence and it was truly a freak accident, you are covered and won’t need to pay a cent. The same wont be said if you had the insurance policy but failed to erect the fence or put other precautions in place to prevent a likely accident from occurring (likely as without the fence it would not take a freak gust for the child to fall down your slope and drown). My Background is audit specialising in AML/CTF and also qualified to provide personal advice on tier one financial products. Having car insuarnce doesnt insure you against negligence either. if youre drunk or driving dangerously, you may as well not be insured. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 13Jul 03, 2014 4:05 pm Beazley77 Wow, lots interesting discussion! My block is a dead flat block of sand basically. No slope, no vegetation (not even a weed)... The lesson to take away from this then is that you shouldn't dig out your block and create a dam at the bottom of it. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 14Jul 03, 2014 4:30 pm QuarumNibblet Beazley77 Wow, lots interesting discussion! My block is a dead flat block of sand basically. No slope, no vegetation (not even a weed)... The lesson to take away from this then is that you shouldn't dig out your block and create a dam at the bottom of it. Or if you decide to than you should seek some advice on public liability insurance In all seriousness, unless ther eis likley hood of people coming onto yur land doing stupid things (burnouts, camping illegally, hosting solstice doofs etc ) you could assume your risk is quite low. Although I have seen vacant blocks being use by people on quad bikes and with tehir kids on peewee 50s around where I'm building. So there is always the risk of those types of bogans potentially claiming damages should they hit a tree stump or a ditch and flip thier bikes. Its all relative. How long will you be sitting on the block? Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 15Jul 03, 2014 8:59 pm OK so I have done a bit of reading above and come up with the following. If you negligent your could still be liable (like if you where drunk while driving a car) and insurance wont pay up. But if your were not negligent then your insurance will cover you. However if you not negligent then I dont understand how you can be sued in the first place. This is the reasons for my original view. My concerns are is it possible that insurance companies are trying to sell something you can never use. It would be interesting to see how many people have made a claim, and what happened. I wonder if there are any stats on this. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 16Jul 03, 2014 9:53 pm Hi, If you're still interested on this subject, I took out public liability insurance through Wesfarmers insurance (WFI) for 20mil including 15k cover for colourbond fencing that was on the block. Cost was $254 for 12months. Probably won't ever need it but just wanted it just in case. Seemed the right thing to do and weird to own something of value and not have it insured. We have new homes either side of us and an example of where the cover would cover us is say if a fire started on our block (unknown to us) and went into a neighbors place and caused damage. Hope this helps. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 17Jul 03, 2014 10:24 pm B STAR OK so I have done a bit of reading above and come up with the following. If you negligent your could still be liable (like if you where drunk while driving a car) and insurance wont pay up. But if your were not negligent then your insurance will cover you. However if you not negligent then I dont understand how you can be sued in the first place. This is the reasons for my original view. My concerns are is it possible that insurance companies are trying to sell something you can never use. It would be interesting to see how many people have made a claim, and what happened. wonder if there are any stats on this. how difficult is it to understand? You can be liable without being negligent. If you're negligent you will likley be liable and not covered. Insurance covers liability not negligence. The concept is not rocket science. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 18Jul 03, 2014 10:35 pm I think I worked out where we differ. I don't believe you can be liable without be negligent? Like I said it would be interesting to understand how many people have previously been liable without be negligent. I would not be surprised if the number is 0 in the last 12 months. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 19Jul 03, 2014 11:22 pm Frenchie Hi, If you're still interested on this subject, I took out public liability insurance through Wesfarmers insurance (WFI) for 20mil including 15k cover for colourbond fencing that was on the block. Cost was $254 for 12months. Probably won't ever need it but just wanted it just in case. Seemed the right thing to do and weird to own something of value and not have it insured. We have new homes either side of us and an example of where the cover would cover us is say if a fire started on our block (unknown to us) and went into a neighbors place and caused damage. Hope this helps. thanks Frenchie It does help. The discussion has been interesting and is hopefully useful for others too. My block won't be vacant for long and has established houses reasonably close so I think is a pretty low risk. Re: Vacant Land Insurance 20Jul 03, 2014 11:53 pm I had a similar concern recently- we have a heavily treed 1/2 acre block with established houses either side. The build has not started yet. My concern was that if a tree from our block went through the roof of the next door neighbour's, who would be liable. None of the major insurance companies offered a product to suit. I found a company called Landcover who offered a policy that cost $200 for 12 months. The reality is that it will only be about 6 weeks till we're covered by builders insurance but I still did it for peace of mind. 11/11/13- dep paid 4/4/14- settlement Feb '15- DA app 6/8/15- CC site works begin 19/8/15- Formwork 25/8/15- slab 3/9/15- elect. appt 13/10/15 - frame started 19/10- bricks started 31/10 - roof done Hi there, long-time lurker but first time posting. 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