Browse Forums Building A New House 1 May 19, 2008 9:45 pm Summary of situation:
We're building a 6 star energy rated house. All discusions about the windows up until the present time have clearly stated that all windows will be double glazed. The detailed specifications which we signed say that all windows will be double glazed. The plans that we signed had a couple of minor issues - they still got us to sign them but said they'd be replaced with the "final" plans which I got in the mail just the other day. The plans we signed did not mention any glazing, just the window dimensions and whether they were sliding or awning ones. Today I read the final plans and on the first page it now has a box saying "Energy Rating Specifications/Inclusions" (this box was not on the plans we signed) and in this box it states, amongst other things: "clear single glazing to be used to first floor...clear double glazing to be used to ground floor" I rang the builder and said "in all previous discussions and on our signed specifications it clearly states that ALL windows will be double glazed and yet on these FINAL plans (which we haven't signed) it has [above]" He said that these comments only refer to the minimum legal requirements for the 6 star energy rating and the minimum requirements are single glazing to the first floor and double glazing to the ground floor. I said I thought this was misleading as it was on our plans and implied that our house would have this glazing. He sounded frustrated and assured me that our house would have double glazing to all windows. I hung up stil feeling a bit strange... Anyway, a few hours later when I had more time to read the plans, I came across a different page which included the window schedule. On our previous plans which we signed it only lists each window's size and whether it's an awning or sliding. On these final plans , not only does it give the dimensions of each window, but it states "double glazing" next to each and every ground floor window and nothing next to the upstairs windows. Am I crazy, or doesn't this clearly imply that all ground floor windows are to be double glazed, yet all upstairs windows aren't? (as it doesn't say double glazed next to any of these)... So to further illustrate: It states for example (and I won't list all windows): W1: aluminium sliding window (dimensions listed) DOUBLE GLAZED W2: aluminium awning window (dimensions listed) DOUBLE GLAZED and so on for all ground floor windows W16 aluminium sliding window (dimensions listed) W17 aluminium sliding window (dimensions listed) and so on for all upstairs windows Again I phoned the builder and said that I'd just read the window schedule and it has "double glazed" written next to the ground floor windows and not next to the upstairs ones. I said "why is this?" He actually sounded **** with me and said "What do you want me to do? Just tell me what you want me to do", so I told him "I want it to state "double glazed" next to each and every single window in the house". He said OK and we hung up. Do you think they were trying to pull one over us? Don't the specifications outrank the plans anyway (specs say double glazed, plans don't) And another query: Am I going to be able to tell once the house is built whether the windows are double glazed or not? Is it obvious? Or can they still just put in whatever the hell they want? Thanks for your patience in reading my long winded post (just wanted to get all the facts in). Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 2May 19, 2008 9:55 pm Hey oztish, well done!!! I know i would not sign a darn thing until i see all the correct information on the plans or spec's or both!!!
Maybe they thought that you would be okay with it? Who knows? But at the end of the day, they NOW know that you are not going to put up with any crap.... Double glazing has 2 seperated panes of glass whereas single glazed has one pane. It should be clear. Also make sure what you're getting on any sliding doors etc too, or is that just for the windows only??? Good on you for standing your ground i say!!! Let us know how you go.... Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 3May 19, 2008 10:13 pm Thanks Nicola. No, the double glazing does not apply to the sliding door, only to the windows. Seems weird to have to have double glazing to all ground floor windows to meet the 6 star energy rating and yet you can have this huge pane of glass for a door and have it not double glazed, but at least they were up front about that all along.
What upsets me is how I was made to feel (on the phone today) as though I was a "difficult", whingeing, difficult to deal with client, as though I was unreasonable - based on the builder's exasperated tone with me. I need to toughen my backbone for this project I think. This isn't the first time I've built and boy did we have to watch our last builder closely.... Any other comments welcome on whether you think my builder was trying to shaft us... Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 4May 19, 2008 10:51 pm If you want to avoid direct confrontation it can sometimes be handy to invent a mysterious "silent partner" who checks all the paperwork. That way you can just say that there's "no drama, it just needs to be written down for my partner". You can even say things like "You know it and I know it, but my partner has to see it written down - you know how it is , if they don;t see it written down they don;t believe it."
Now they may guess it's all BS, but it's a nice polite face-saving way to basically insist on having absolutely everything in writing. Just an idea. Do the hard jobs first. The easy jobs will take care of themselves. - Dale Carnegie Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 5May 20, 2008 1:34 am cabin fever hubby just claims it's me refusing to sign paperwork if the info is not clear. He's already done it twice when there was a hiccup over our land contract. ( the paperwork covenant was changed with an additional restriction when we saw the official 2nd set of papers where as the original offer to buy had less restrictions)
developer wrote us a personal letter stipulating we would not be held to the additional restriction. he's now looking at having it removed because he wasn't even aware it had been added. He didn't want to delay us for months as the titles were going to need to be redrawn with the change of covenant. Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 6May 20, 2008 8:02 am Hi oztish - we had a similar problem. We wanted Double Glazing to the whole house. It was something we wanted and we weren't bothered if it had no effect on the ratings or not.
We said whole house upfront and when the plans came back I noticed that they had DG next to all the windows except the patio doors and obscure bathroom / toilet / ensuite windows. The patio doors are the biggest windows in the house - whats the point of double glazing all the other windows if the biggest ones are single ! We must have gone backwards and forwards 4 or 5 times before we eventually got what we wanted. What i got them to do was put the DG next to all the windows on the plan and also make sure the tender specified it as well - belt and braces. Bottom line is you need to cover yourself. I don't think the companies to it on purpose to screw you but if they don't do exactly what you want and it isn't specified in the contract your stuffed. Through the whole process all they kept saying was you don't need it to achieve the rating and a general reluctance to do it. What ever happened to the customers always right.............. To let you know its fairly easy to tell if its double glazed - when they're delivered there's a label on the window which specifies the gap - also you should see a rubber type seal that seperates the panes of glass. Simon Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 7May 20, 2008 8:23 am KexKez wrote
Quote: cabin fever hubby just claims it's me refusing to sign paperwork if the info is not clear. He's already done it twice when there was a hiccup over our land contract. ( the paperwork covenant was changed with an additional restriction when we saw the official 2nd set of papers where as the original offer to buy had less restrictions) developer wrote us a personal letter stipulating we would not be held to the additional restriction. he's now looking at having it removed because he wasn't even aware it had been added. He didn't want to delay us for months as the titles were going to need to be redrawn with the change of covenant. Thats just downright dishonest practices. Oztish, As for can you tell if they are double glazed, sure can - see pic below. First shows the general construction methods. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Second pic is window where you can typically see the aluminium or other spacer between the 2 x panes of glass. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ And yes if your going for a high energy house, I'd be looking at double glazing the dors too - as you say - it's a large area to loose heat - and that is what it does. Steve Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 9May 20, 2008 11:20 am Hi everyone,
Thanks for your responses. I'm not worried about the heat loss so much as the noise minimisation. My husband and I recently sold our dream home which we spent years getting "just right" only to have to move because we had the neighbours from hell behind us. They actually lived behind us and over one block and everything was fine, until they bought the vacant block next to them (behind us) to build a massive garage on to house all their V8's and hot rods. They used to play doof doof music all the time (often until 4am) and rev their cars so loudly our walls would vibrate. We wanted double glazing on our new house to minimize outside noise as much as possible. I never thought to ask about double glazing the sliding door until reading your comments...(too late now, I've already finalised the specs). Thanks for the pics of double glazed windows. At least it's obvious to tell. With my last builder, we paid extra for pink batts insulation to be added to all external walls. We came one night to see the house and the insulation had been delivered. We came the next night and the insulation was still there, sealed in its packets on the floor yet all the plaster had gone up so they didn't put any insulation in. If we hadn't gone there both nights we'd never have known that there wasn't any pink batts in the walls. I'm nervous now about the soil/rock removal contingency. Everything in our contract is fixed price except this and really they could pull any old figure out of the air and charge us and we're not going to know if it factually represents what took place during soil prep. or not are we? Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 10May 20, 2008 7:04 pm Well done so far, I would be worried like you were, because if it's not in writing then what proof would you have had later on should they have installed single glazing up top just like the contract said (or didn't say!).
With our contract I know they had a provisional figure for earthworks to start with, and some other extra things we wanted (like different windows etc), but everything was firmed up after the Pre-Start meeting, including the earthworks for which they got two quotes of some local contractors. The actual cost came in pretty spot on to what they estimated. Yes getting you to sign the initial contract (before pre-start) is normal because we had to do the same thing, thereafter you can still have variations. It's after the pre-start that things all get sorted and changes thereafter (I guess after the final plans are drawn) tend to have a fee just because you wanted to change something be it major or minor. I don't know, but maybe you're able to ask for that figure to be firmed up before signing off on the final contract / plans / prestart documents? Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 11May 20, 2008 7:04 pm Check your contract for what is classed as rock. Typically rock is "can't be broken by backhoe" in other words, they'll need an excavator with a rock picker! You'll know about that!!
I guess the thing is to try and get a builder you feel you can trust. Also, make regular visit to site to monitor the progress. It's the only way you will get a house that you will be happy with! Electrical Engineer... Don't hold that against me... And keen owner builder... Mainly the building part!! Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 12Jan 18, 2009 8:05 am oztish Thanks Nicola. No, the double glazing does not apply to the sliding door, only to the windows. Seems weird to have to have double glazing to all ground floor windows to meet the 6 star energy rating and yet you can have this huge pane of glass for a door and have it not double glazed, but at least they were up front about that all along. What upsets me is how I was made to feel (on the phone today) as though I was a "difficult", whingeing, difficult to deal with client, as though I was unreasonable - based on the builder's exasperated tone with me. I need to toughen my backbone for this project I think. This isn't the first time I've built and boy did we have to watch our last builder closely.... Any other comments welcome on whether you think my builder was trying to shaft us... I would love to hear an update... Ed Re: Am I crazy? or was my builder trying to rip us off? 13Jan 18, 2009 3:07 pm Hi,
I had completely forgotten about my post about the double glazing... Here's an update. 1. The sliding glass door IS double glazed. I thought it wasn't but was incorrect. 2. All the windows have been installed and yes, they are all double glazed. 3. The builder hand wrote and signed next to every change "Double Glazed" next to every window on the plans that didn't already have double glazed written next to it. 4. The extra concrete charge ended up being just under $10,000. Ouch. We are at lock up stage - insulation and then plaster going in in the next fortnight. Thanks for following up on me...I feel special now! I had 28m2 of engineered pavers laid six months back and it was difficult to find someone not taking the pi$$. Internet suggested it should be $85-100/m2 to lay them.… 3 12407 I had a similar issue with my fridge not too long ago. It wasn't the same model, but the symptoms were pretty much the same: the compressor would start and then stop… 3 7544 |