Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Nov 11, 2013 6:45 pm Posting on behalf.. My sister is currently building her first home. There has been an issue with her bricks/mortar. She is approx a week out from handover and it's yet to be resolved. They have been doing weekly (??) acid washes since it was first discovered but she hasn't noticed any improvement to date. She mentioned it to customer care this morning who made out it's not a big deal, it's only cosmetic, not structural, etc. They said it will be on-going, with them continuing the weekly acid washes well after handover. I just have a couple of questions:- Has anyone else experienced anything like this? Apparently it was a whole batch of faulty bricks. Does anyone know the effects of the weekly acid washes? Is too many damaging for the bricks and/or mortar? After handover, will the acid wash affect her grass and/or gardens? She has young kids, it's going to be hot - does the acid wash dry instantly? Does it have fumes? Will she need to close her house up when they do the washes? If they render & paint over it all, is it likely to still be an issue?? I feel she has the right to peaceful enjoyment of her new home. Having trades people over every week when they are establishing gardens/landscaping it going to be a pain! Not to mention the sour taste left in her mouth from the every day reminder of this issue. She has not really enjoyed the building experience as no one is giving her a straight answer as to when it will be resolved. I think she is within her rights to ask for a full render. I am not sure of the difference of costs (ie, weekly trades people for x amount of time, vs. cost of rendering as a once off), but I think the cost should be claimed back in the building insurance and/or from the brick manufacturer (as they say it's where the issue has arisen from). Any advice I can pass on to her? Thanks!! Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 2Nov 11, 2013 6:55 pm OMG, seems ugly make me too scary, iam waiting for my site work starts, need to keep an eye on when brick works. Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 3Nov 11, 2013 7:34 pm The appearance is unsatisfactory and not suitable for handover. It looks to me they can't wash it off. I would be telling builder to demolish and rebuild. Washing after handover is not on. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 4Nov 11, 2013 8:39 pm Who are the builders? We have chosen those bricks for our build I know in our paperwork it states that the builder is not responsible for discolouration in bricks, can't remember the exact wording will check when I'm home. I think the mortar would bother me more Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 5Nov 11, 2013 10:46 pm John+Ash, just had a quick look at your build topic - not the same builder, but we are in WA. Bricks are by G@lena by Br!k Makers. Side by side image of the bricks from the manufacturer's website vs the actual end result. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Although they did pick cream mortar, they still look nothing alike. Her bricklayer info in the contract states "Efflorescence and vanadium staining are inherent problems with some bricks and therefor as part of the manufacturing process is not the responsibility of the builder". I am not expert but I don't believe this issue is either of those. The site supervisor has said it's a known issue with a whole batch of bricks. I feel the builder should be seeking compensation from Br!k Makers for this major stuff up! Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 7Nov 11, 2013 10:56 pm I wouldn't be happy with that Since I have no knowledge on what to do I would like to know so I will be following this post Who is the builder? Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 8Nov 11, 2013 11:32 pm Builder is WA H0using Centre. Final payment has not been made although the builder is expecting it to be paid next week. They are saying this issue is ongoing and will be dealt with after handover. I think her customer care said the weekly acid washes might take a couple of months before it's resolved. The fact there is no definite answer for resolution is not good enough. If she takes this further, does she have a leg to stand on? Is it worth calling MBA? Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 9Nov 12, 2013 8:32 am The have used very strong acid on this job. The issue is more so with the mortar and not the bricks. The efflurence are not comming from the brick. In this case it seems there is a lot residue from the mortar causing staining. I believe there is another type of acid that you can use which is of higher quality that cost a lot more than can fix a lot of this. The product is often refered to as "No-scum" but is spelt a little different and I cant remeber exactly. But a drum cost 100-200 from memeory. compared to $40 for the acid used on this job. Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 10Nov 12, 2013 8:59 am I would not be accepting that - it looks like the bricks might have been burnt by the acid cleaning. I would ring the brick company and get them to come out and have a look. The rep from the brick company should tell you if it is a brick problem or if it is the cleaning of the bricks that has caused the issue. Do not hand over your final payment to the builder until the issue is resolved as rendering might be the way to go. Modified Fernside 38 Rawson Homes Blog: http://www.thehousethatmatandjenbuilt.blogspot.com Build Thread: https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=60501 Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 12Nov 13, 2013 10:31 pm lachjor John+Ash, just had a quick look at your build topic - not the same builder, but we are in WA. Bricks are by G@lena by Br!k Makers. Side by side image of the bricks from the manufacturer's website vs the actual end result. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Although they did pick cream mortar, they still look nothing alike. Her bricklayer info in the contract states "Efflorescence and vanadium staining are inherent problems with some bricks and therefor as part of the manufacturing process is not the responsibility of the builder". I am not expert but I don't believe this issue is either of those. The site supervisor has said it's a known issue with a whole batch of bricks. I feel the builder should be seeking compensation from Br!k Makers for this major stuff up! Yeah that's the same wording!! Although the colour is almost exactly the same ours are from a different manufacturer, ours are from AustralBricks. I would not be happy with that staining though that's for sure. Have they supplied in writing that they are going to sort this after handover? Don't see how its going to make a difference to the mortar I would say the best bet is to get render, probably not the finish they were after but will look better than what they have. Good luck, I will follow for any developments Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 13Nov 16, 2013 8:46 am Ok, time to start posting. I've been reading this forum for a while now (doing a renovation/addition) but always keep an eye on the new home build forum as I am a brickcleaner who works predominantly in the new home industry. I have been a brickcleaner for 14 years in Melbourne and work for nearly all the major builders in the metro area (some I will not work for but that's another story). I also worked for one of the major brick companies for 10 years as an operations manager, so I would like to think I've got a little bit of knowledge in the brick industry. The stains that are shown in the pictures are 'iron oxide' stains, (a very bad case of staining) often incorrectly called 'acid burn'. There is also some 'insoluble white calcite stains present(more on that later). The stains are caused by the Hydrochloric acid used in the brick wash reacting with the iron oxides in the brick. The iron oxides are used by manufacturers to make the brick coloring's and sometimes are present in the clay itself. It is basically rust and when water runs down the wall (rain) it draws the rust to the surface and leaches into the mortar joints. There is no way to stop it, as the reaction starts as soon as the acid comes into contact with the iron. Sometimes just rain water will start it off, as I have a catalog of pictures from houses that are stained without even being cleaned!! The brick manufacturers always lay the blame at the feet of the cleaner, 'too much acid', 'to little water used to rinse off', 'acid was left on the walls too long'............ the list goes on, but they will never accept that it's an inherent defect with the brick (well not officially, but they do acknowledge it's a brick problem when no one else is listening!!), as this would open them up to a whole new world of liability. They have come up with specific methods in which these bricks are to be cleaned, and I have tried these methods to prove a point to the major builders that it is infact a brick issue, as the houses will still present with stains. Go back 10-12 years ago this staining did not exist, as the brick manufacturers let their product sit in the yard to cure, but now they pretty much send them out on the trucks straight from the kilns (increased demand straining the production lines), so the bricks do not cure properly. Unfortunately there is no real answer for the problem, repeated acid washes will accelerate the problem and only cause more damage to the mortar (over time it erodes and weakens it), Noskum was mentioned before to treat the problem but this will only get the white scum stains off not the iron oxide. There is a product called Rid rust, which the brick companies will tell you to use next, again it will not fix the stains, and sometimes it will cause more stains as its a Phosphoric acid based solution and will cause more white calcite stains if not used correctly. A pull down and rebrick (ensure that the brick layers do an immaculate job with a 6:2:1 mix so the brickcleaner can use a highly diluted mix) and hope that the stains are minimal is one solution, I guess render is another (not my career option though!!). Re: Brick/Mortar issues - pic heavy 14May 03, 2016 11:20 am I have a few comments regarding the above..... Iron oxide stain = Acid burn. Clay bricks don't cure as they are fired to become like stone, but concrete bricks require a curing time just like any concrete product. Clay bricks do swell over the years and this increasing size is taken up with expansion joints on homes where concrete bricks shrink. Acid burn is what its called because as you said, it is a reaction with hydrochloric acid [HCl] dissolving the iron content in the clay. You missed the No1 reason there is these problems. A large portion of iron stains are caused by a failure by the brick cleaner to pre-wet the bricks before applying HCl acid. If they pre-wet the bricks with water, the suction of the brick would be less likely to absorb the HCl acid, leaving the acid remaining proud on the wall and not soaking in to the brick. This means a brickcleaner will actually get better acid coverage as each litre of acid solution will cover a greater m2 of brickwork, thus saving the brickcleaner money. Applying acid to too much brickwork is also a problem as it gets to dry into the wall. On dark bricks or bricks in full sunlight this easily happens. Wetting the wall with a hose and watching how fast it drys can give brickcleaners an idea of what will happen when they apply a HCl solution. Watch a brickcleaner on site and you'll see that they very rarely test what happens. Also HCl is not neutralised by water as its either mostly washed away or diluted. If applied in a 20:1 mix [20 parts water to 1 part acid] and applied to a dry wall, a percentage of the solution will be absorbed into the wall. This will remain there as the high pressure wash cannot easily wash it out of the brick itself. It can then dissolve any iron in the clay and as the wall gets wet then dries pull the dissolved iron to the surface where it will remain as a stain after the water evaporates. A bicarbonate neutralising solution may render the surface layer "ph" neutral but it may not get deep enough into the brick to neutralise all the acid. Please note- Not all bricks are the same. Different colours can and normally do have different clay mixes and firing temperatures. Therefore some bricks need to be laid better and cleaner and washed in a different way with more care. Re faulty bricks.... NEWS FLASH Clay is mined out of the ground.... It can have traces of iron in it.... For a brick company to guarantee that clay has absolutely no iron AT ALL in it would be impossible! This is not avoiding liability regarding a problem with the brick it is a reality. Unfortunately the problem is this.... Brick companies need to make bricks at a price that builders will be prepared to pay for them..... using clay.....which may also have some amount of iron in it. For the past 20 years builders in Victoria have a shortage of bricklayers, especially in relation to the amount of houses they can sell and build. Basically...and unfortunately...over the past 20 years bricklayers in Victoria have developed a habit of laying bricks in a "dirty" state. They leave mortar residue ranging from blogs [or dags] to smears all over the bricks after they finish which need to be cleaned of the brickwork by a brickcleaner. There is no choice in this unless the builders were to pay bricklayers at least twice what they get now to lay clean....and in my experience many soon revert to laying filthy bricks because pride in their work is not what it used to be. This extra cost will be added directly to the cost of building a house and home owner simply don't want to pay for that cost. Please note- There are some very good clean bricklayers in Victoria.....but....there is not enough of them. That being said, bricklayers in QLD and Northern NSW do lay brick clean....simply because they have to. QLD is a mining state and it has a LOT of iron in the ground, therefore the brick clay has iron in it. If you don't lay QLD bricks clean, you almost certainly will get acid burn [iron stains] if you brick clean them and it will look terrible. In Victoria there is an apprenticeships in bricklaying....but only a percentage of bricklayers have actually done an apprenticeship. Most learn on the job after being a labourer for a bricklayer and its the same thing for brickcleaning. Bricklayers get paid approximately 20x the price a brickcleaner gets per 1000 bricks. So it all comes down to the following.... Builders concentrate on trying to keep costs down so homes cost less to build....so owners pay less to buy homes Victorian bricklayers are basically not as clean as QLD bricklayers because they don't have to be. Brickcleaners are needed to get a result that cannot be achieved any other way. Many brickcleaners don't pre-wet the brickwork [which costs nothing] and rarely do they also neutralise afterwards.[They are not paid to or they don't want to] Many apply acid over to many m2 brickwork and it drys into the bricks before they can wash it off. My 2c Being a builder is more than just having once held a hammer. It's about the trades you hire and ensuring that they give a result that meets the industry standard and the home owners expectations. 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