This.
We're using a large amount of PoE throughout the house.
Browse Forums Building A New House Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 21Jan 17, 2013 1:52 pm Danois As for fibre: Fibre has a huge minus compared to coax: It doesn't carry power. This. We're using a large amount of PoE throughout the house. Building a Delta 21 at Craigieburn - http://homeofzero.blogspot.com.au/ Deposit: 26/02. Contract: 22/05. Settlement: 29/05. Site start: 18/10. Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 22Jan 17, 2013 1:56 pm I'm sorry but if your data guys are after a fortune to go from cat 5e to cat 6 it's not worth the money, Cat 5e is certified to run gigabit right up to 100m (not 80m...not 75m, but 100m) if your running more than that you should be on fibre. you will find that all future devices designed for your average user will be designed for no more than gigabit, anything that needs 10gig (as in actually needs, not just look it's shiney) will be running an optic link (like fibre to the home aka NBN) so if you really want to future proof your house, run conduit. no matter what weird and wonderful things you run in future you'll have the capacity to run the cables. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_m ... an_be_used we run POE everywhere here too, again, cat6 will provide you with no tangible benefit Slooowwwwly getting a Manhatten 35 in Middleton Grange Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 24Jan 17, 2013 2:01 pm Cat 7(a) is fast becoming the standard in Europe. I seriously don't get the "if you need more than cat 5, you need to go to fiber" comments. Noone "needs" it at the moment, but companies and up-market smart houses are putting them in to future proof them. It's not even that expensive in Europe.
And as for the 100 meter, don't for a second think that that is always the case, or that it is a firm length. It isn't. A little kink in the cable, and you have less bandwidth over shorter length. Here's a roll of 100 metre Cat7a cable for the equivalent of Aus$105 (first hit in a google search with a site:dk in the search, so not nec. the cheapest): http://www.elsag.dk/netvaerkskabel/cat7 ... m-ring.htm Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 25Jan 17, 2013 2:03 pm yeah we're doing the same going to get a small number of LED downlights installed downstairs as well as the protective domes over the spots we want the others installed(so the insulation between levels can then be placed over and around the domes), with the cabling ready to go for them after hand over. Slooowwwwly getting a Manhatten 35 in Middleton Grange Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 26Jan 17, 2013 2:10 pm Danois Cat 7(a) is fast becoming the standard in Europe. I seriously don't get the "if you need more than cat 5, you need to go to fiber" comments. Noone "needs" it at the moment, but companies and up-market smart houses are putting them in to future proof them. It's not even that expensive in Europe. And as for the 100 meter, don't for a second think that that is always the case, or that it is a firm length. It isn't. A little kink in the cable, and you have less bandwidth over shorter length. In all my years I have not found a single cable that's ever had a bandwidth reduction or issue caused by a kink in the cable, I do however see lots of faulty plugs on cables. I completely agree on Aussie lagging behind Europe, we do in just about everything I suspect it's because all their infrastructure has been long paid off, so they have the money to play around with the fancier side of things.. I'd be saying sure go-head with cat 7, but we just get ripped, and my point to everyone is that if your going to get charged thousands of dollars more for the fancy cable, don't waste your money, if it was only a couple of hundred more (for a whole house) I'd be saying sure. anyone got the cost difference out of curiosity? bet you'll find that half the installers are using cat5e Mech's on the ends of the cables and a cat5e patch panel... you guys ever seen what's needed for cat 6a/7 terminating? holllly crap (Google Krone Highband) Slooowwwwly getting a Manhatten 35 in Middleton Grange Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 27Jan 17, 2013 2:16 pm There's like $10 difference with most builders to go from 5e to 6. Why you wouldn't is beyond me. Building a Delta 21 at Craigieburn - http://homeofzero.blogspot.com.au/ Deposit: 26/02. Contract: 22/05. Settlement: 29/05. Site start: 18/10. Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 28Jan 17, 2013 2:18 pm when I went around asking a few months back a few builders were quoting an increase of $60 per point to go with cat6, if it's only $10 for the entire project then it's not even a question Slooowwwwly getting a Manhatten 35 in Middleton Grange Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 29Jan 17, 2013 2:22 pm MR2 In all my years I have not found a single cable that's ever had a bandwidth reduction or issue caused by a kink in the cable, I do however see lots of faulty plugs on cables. Not to be rude, but since you haven't even come close to saturation from what you have said in this discussion, I'm not really surprised. Quote: I completely agree on Aussie lagging behind Europe, we do in just about everything I suspect it's because all their infrastructure has been long paid off, so they have the money to play around with the fancier side of things. And the vast distances, and simply "because they can" (rip people off, that is). Quote: I'd be saying sure go-head with cat 7, but we just get ripped, and my point to everyone is that if your going to get charged thousands of dollars more for the fancy cable, don't waste your money, if it was only a couple of hundred more (for a whole house) I'd be saying sure. From the same sort of place, you can buy 500 metres for A$250. Still not enough? Well, how about 1000 metres for the equivalent of A$425. Quote: anyone got the cost difference out of curiosity? bet you'll find that half the installers are using cat5e Mech's on the ends of the cables and a cat5e patch panel... you guys ever seen what's needed for cat 6a/7 terminating? holllly crap (Google Krone Highband) Still not expensive if you import it yourself somewhere from Europe (Germany, Austria or some such - the Danish site I looked is more expensive than the German and Austrian places I have found). In any case, let's say it's as high as A$2500 dearer than cat5, what happens when you have to upgrade - how much will that cost then with labour etc? Or how much more will you able to get from the sale of the house, if the buyer doesn't have to think about upgrading the network? If you didn't upgrade, would he be able to argue that the network is not worth much and get a least those $2500 in rebate? In any case, I think cables are cheap all things considered. It costs the same in man hours regardless of what "quality" you choose. Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 31Jan 17, 2013 2:35 pm MR2 You're saying I've discussed how I've tested cable saturation? where? No, I'm saying that I think you were the one who asked rhetorically how one could possibly saturate 1Gbps. Wasn't that you? Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 32Jan 17, 2013 2:42 pm maybe lost in translation, my point was that under normal use people are not going to be seeing a point to upgrading from gig to 10gig (the main point of cat 6/7), and generally I find that if a device is saturating gigabit(on a regular basis), there is a 10gig fibre option or version of that product. we just upgraded one of our (work)servers to 10gig and it's such a huge difference, we've tried cat5/6/7 with it, even quad binding ports and it really did not help, 10gig fiber and it's something else! I'm a sysadmin by trade, but I've done lots of outside cabling for LAN events (where everyone brings their computers together all that) Slooowwwwly getting a Manhatten 35 in Middleton Grange Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 33Jan 17, 2013 3:16 pm MR2 maybe lost in translation, my point was that under normal use people are not going to be seeing a point to upgrading from gig to 10gig (the main point of cat 6/7), and generally I find that if a device is saturating gigabit(on a regular basis), there is a 10gig fibre option or version of that product. Again, you're missing the point of having a network that runs on coax cables. Fibre is best at getting something from point a to point b, whereas coax is better for the local distribution, not least because it can do power over ethernet, wake on ethernet and so on, and the fact that you don't need to add optic-to-coax adaptors if the equipment you want doesn't already have it. Another bonus of using better than 5 (and the higher the better) is that you get less latency as the mhz increase as well as better bandwidth. In reality, the higher the mhz, the better for real-time video. Quote: we just upgraded one of our (work)servers to 10gig and it's such a huge difference, we've tried cat5/6/7 with it, even quad binding ports and it really did not help, 10gig fiber and it's something else! Sorry, but if you think that 10gig coax is slower than 10gig fiber, something is wrong with your hardware at work. Quote: I'm a sysadmin by trade, but I've done lots of outside cabling for LAN events (where everyone brings their computers together all that) Yes, yes, but you still have ignored most of what is being said. First it's almost impossible to saturate 1gbps, then when given examples, it's then not POE, then when told that it's a network, and as such is used for distribution and control - completely ignored by you - then, when you're told that a kink in the cable can reduce the reach of such a thing, you flat out deny such a thing can happen (take a look at signal-to-noise ratios and how a kink in the cable can affect that and thus the length and bandwidth achievable), then you're a sysadmin, then 10gig coax is slower than 10 gig fiber for a local setup, and on and on. As for "normal use", I don't get your point. In the next decade we will have 4K and 8K on a consumer level, while at the same time have more and more complex systems and general distribution demands in an average household. And we're not even talking that many years out in the future. You can buy 4k tellies right now - that's four times the resolution of 1080P, and let's say you might want more than one of those things in the future. In any case, I'm done with this discussion, because I see no point in continue a debate where one party ignores everything and basically only restates that "fibre rules". We will have to agree to disagree. Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 34Jan 17, 2013 5:13 pm Must admit most of that is lost on me. But if what is being said is that Cat6/7 is not that much dearer than 5 re futureproofing. Why not then ignore cable and just put in optic fibre as if the NBN is supposedly the "bees knees" and uses optic and if you want to futureproof surely that would be the way to go. Or have the designers of the NBN got it totally wrong? Settlement 1/2/12 New Shed 23/3/12 Slab poured 27/3/12 Frame complete 4/5/12 Roof complete 1/6/12 LOCKUP 29/6/12 Our new build blog http://kareenhillsownerbuild.blogspot.com/ Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 35Jan 17, 2013 5:36 pm delatite13 Must admit most of that is lost on me. But if what is being said is that Cat6/7 is not that much dearer than 5 re futureproofing. Why not then ignore cable and just put in optic fibre as if the NBN is supposedly the "bees knees" and uses optic and if you want to futureproof surely that would be the way to go. Or have the designers of the NBN got it totally wrong? No, the designers of the NBN has not got it totally wrong. However, their goal is very much different to your goal. Their goal is high bandwidth over vast distances - hundreds of miles at a time, and that is where optical wins out. When it has arrived in your house, and if you want to only use fiberoptic cabling as an extension of the NBN and whatnot, you will need to either buy equipment that can connect to fiberoptic cables (i.e. have an inbuilt optic->coaxial adaptor) and rely on that inbuilt thing, or you will need to have loads of external adaptors that can convert the signal from optical (i.e. light) to coax (i.e. electrical impulses). Either way, you end up with an inflexible system, and you won't get power over ethernet, wake up from ethernet, nor will you be able to have bus (ethernet, that is) driven switches, alarms, sensors etc. All of those will need to be powered from elsewhere. No matter how you cut it, your hardrive, your computer, and anything else that relies on power to function does so by eletrical impulses (yeah, I know you know that), and at some point you will need to have it made into that - be it centrally, or decentrally. However, NBN is merely internet (and tv, phone over internet etc.), and as such it's basically delivering a lot of things to you. Imagine having fiber in your house and no coax, and you want to distribute a tv show from room A to room B, a 4K film from server in Room C to room D, while using the internet to do whatever, plus having the system of the house itself (I'm thinking this is a smart house), and between all your gadgets and things you have to convert electrical impulses to light pulses and back to electrical impulses (coax->Optic>coax) in order to actually use the stuff being distributed. That not only makes it harder than it should be, but there's a real risk of introducing latency and clock errors when this is constantly going on everywhere in the system. Did that explain it somewhat? Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 36Jan 17, 2013 6:31 pm Somewhat :p Basically our discussion is about future proofing, my point is that copper cable is not what we'll be running in 50 years, so don't waste too much money on elaborate versions of it Fiber is what we'll most likely move to, but don't waste money on it yet unless you have a real use for it. so I think we can all agree, if it's cheap, run the best copper you can run, if you want further future proofing also run conduits to the normal spots you'd have devices in (so multiple to TV Neich's, in the kitchen for appliances, imagine an oven with a webcam you could keep an eye on things with, and remote control) spots that you might place access points etc. Keep in mind, if you want to try running 10gb in future you want to specify cat 6a not just cat 6, See below: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_6_cable "When used for 10GBASE-T, Cat 6 cable's maximum length is 55 meters (180 ft) in a favourable alien crosstalk environment, but only 37 meters (121 ft) in a hostile alien crosstalk environment, such as when many cables are bundled together. However, because the effects of alien crosstalk environments on cables are difficult to determine prior to installation, it is highly recommended that all Cat6 cables being used for 10GBASE-T are electrically tested once installed. With its improved specifications, Cat6A does not have this limitation and can run 10GBASE-T at 100 meters (330 ft) without electronic testing." Now keep in mind, that to get 10gig out of copper they're starting to do all sorts of fancy things with the termination & shielding to attempting to squeeze every last bit out of the cable(have a look at standards for the cable trays, and try terminating some, it's a massive pita!), even the most generic fibre optic that's floating around these days is capable of 100gig + with no changes to infrastructure other than the switching & fibre converters, so assuming the fibre to the node stuff is OM3 or better (we now have OM4), it means that we can in the distant future simply upgrade the modem in the house from gigabit (present connection sync speed to my knowledge) up to 100gb just by unplugging it and plugging a new one in. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Gigabit_Ethernet Slooowwwwly getting a Manhatten 35 in Middleton Grange Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 37Jan 17, 2013 8:39 pm Just when you think you're done, you're dragged in again. I see you're grasping at straws again, now it's in fifty years time we will all be using fibre optics. Perhaps, but in fifty years, the house is most likely ripe for renovation. In fifty years, any fibre optic cables in the house will have degraded, and since most fibre optic cables used locally for distribution are in fact plastic (yes, really), that too will have degraded and be ripe for replacement. Even if they're glass, the sleeve will most likely have degraded here and there, resulting in more noise, hence degrading the signal-to-noise ratio. And even in fifty years, we won't have overcome the laws of physics: You still won't have power through light pulses, you still won't have items that can be attached to the fibre optic solely. They will still need to get power elsewhere. You will still need to have several optic-coax-optic converters for various items (yes, your computer, telly, and speakers in fifty years will still have coax cables internally, and they will still need to convert the light pulses to electrical - in other words. And unless they figure out a way to get rid of jitter and noise in general (they won't. It's physics) all those diverse coax-optical-coax converters will still be needed. Nope, get rid of most of the converters (except the one connecting you to the internet through NBN) and you will have a whole lot less trouble, and you will gain the capability to have switches and such powered directly by the bus (power on ethernet in this case). I can't help but laugh at your webcam in the oven. Yes, that's something that will swallow up bandwidth (not). As for cat6/6A/7/7A being hard to terminate: Boohoo. As for crosstalk, get the shielded version. As soon as you get to 7, they're all shielded. Don't have it next to 240 cables as per the AS. Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 38Jan 17, 2013 8:44 pm wow you resort to personal attacks? good work. what is this about converting to coax? they don't convert to coax anymore...? you do use conversion modules in Switch's (SFP+ ports) the expected lifespan of good quality fibre (the stuff you'd install behind the walls of a house should you choose) is 60 years+ there are cables out there that were laid in the 1980's......you doubt things have improved since? http://nbnexplained.org/wordpress/techn ... -of-fibre/ http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1538857 please re-read my post and explain how I have explained that a webcam in an oven would be a high bandwidth use? my statement of "imagine a webcam in the oven" is more of a wistful one and frankly would be quite handy I think. by "getting rid of the converters" I'm suggesting modern gear that actually needs the bandwidth(wow, much like current devices, none of this coax? really? Coax? ) of 10gig will already have the SFP ports & modules in them ready to go, so you won't have any "converters" simply plug the thin, durable, flexable patch cable in and off you go. not sure if your still thinking of some old gear but scroll down to the twin sfp setup on this page for what I'm talking about: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collate ... bac22.html Slooowwwwly getting a Manhatten 35 in Middleton Grange Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 39Jan 17, 2013 10:07 pm MR2 wow you resort to personal attacks? good work. What personal attacks? Being unimpressed and having a limit to one's patience is a personal attack now? Quote: what is this about converting to coax? they don't convert to coax anymore...? you do use conversion modules in Switch's (SFP+ ports) Coax= copper. Unless you think that speakers can run off light pulses, they run with coax. If they have a fiber optic input, they have a DAC inside to convert those light impulses to electrical signals. Hell, take a look at a driver inside a speaker. Get that to work without electrical impulses. Electrical signals are propagated through coax (i.e. copper). The same goes for your amplifier, your telly, your computer, bus driven switches (as well as hardwired 240 switches), and on an on. If you think otherwise, please give me an example of how to get over the slight hurdle of, oh, the laws of physics. Quote: the expected lifespan of good quality fibre (the stuff you'd install behind the walls of a house should you choose) is 60 years+ there are cables out there that were laid in the 1980's......you doubt things have improved since? Actually, back then most of it was actual glass. Today, most fiber optic cables for relatively short runs (i.e. internally in a building) are plastics. Quote: http://nbnexplained.org/wordpress/technical-points/the-lifespan-of-fibre/ http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1538857 And what about the sleeves? What about the signal-to-noise ratio when the sleeve detoriates? What about the same when the (most likely) plastic optics degenerate? And you still have to convert the optical signal to electrical impulses, regardless of you claiming otherwise. Once again, this is not about a one way or even two way push/pull between, say a server and a single other point. This is about an actual network, where in the future things will communicate with each other. To convert from electrical impulses to optical and back to electrical impulses is a huge waste not to mention adding loads of complexity. Quote: please re-read my post and explain how I have explained that a webcam in an oven would be a high bandwidth use? my statement of "imagine a webcam in the oven" is more of a wistful one and frankly would be quite handy I think. Fair enough. From the context it seemed like you were saying it would be an example of usage. I will, however, take your word for it, that it was merely a stray thought in all of this. Quote: by "getting rid of the converters" I'm suggesting modern gear that actually needs the bandwidth(wow, much like current devices, none of this coax? really? Coax? ) of 10gig will already have the SFP ports & modules in them ready to go, so you won't have any "converters" simply plug the thin, durable, flexable patch cable in and off you go. Still not getting that it's not a question of having a massive database coupled to a raid setup or somesuch. But even then, those things still convert the optical signal to coax, even if they do so just behind the in-built plug. I cannot believe you think that such things doesn't go to coax. Unless you think that coax is only about the connection between devices and not internal stuff. If you reread my posts you will see that I mentioned both internal and external converters. Quote: not sure if your still thinking of some old gear but scroll down to the twin sfp setup on this page for what I'm talking about: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collate ... bac22.html Sigh. What about a "network" don't you understand? When I talk about "bus-driven" switches in the context of a smart home, I'm talking about lightswitches, making use of power over ethernet as I have mentioned several times. As for your cisco switches (I hate that those things are the same word), they too convert the signal from light pulses to coax internally. Even a lowly sensor diode (you know the ones at entries) is doing that. There is no way around it. If you want electrical impulses from light pulses, you will need to convert it. In other words: Connect anything to it (harddrives, thin clients, voip phones, speakers/amps, tellies, whatever), and it will have to be converted to electrical impulses over copper. Either before it runs into the connected device, or inside the device. As for the cisco being all optical. That's not so. You still need to convert some of the light pulses to coax to actuate switches. Seriously, this is becoming a farce. You claiming that speakers, tellies, harddrives, SSDs or whatever doesn't have to have the optical signal converted to electrical impulses either externally or internally says it all, really. I truly hope this is over now, as we have spent way too much time and space polluting this thread. Re: Electrical Plan - Tips and Tricks 40Jan 18, 2013 5:50 pm Generator changeover switch and power inlet. We have a changeover switch that will be fitted soon that will allow us to plug a generator into the house via a 15 amp caravan style power inlet and manually change over from the street supply to generator supply during power failures. Power will come from a 3.5 kVA genset which should be more than ample to keep the fans and lights running. If there have been changes, variations, during construction then the drawings should be revised, the building permit amended and the current, as built drawings given to… 2 4478 Just be careful with building stability during construction, that is when the structure may be weakened, refer to your engineering drawings for stability methodology. 1 7215 |