Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Feb 14, 2012 2:26 pm Hi all,
I have been a frequent reader but haven't posted too many times. We are building a new 2 story house in Perth and have had our "challenges" with the builder (i.e. problems ). The house is probably 2 months away from Practical Completion. At Christmas the builder removed the port-a-loo and the tradies have been using our down stairs toilet (and not cleaning it either). We were not happy about this but let it pass in the "spirit of co-operation". On the weekend we were showing the in laws around and there was a nice present deposited in our upstairs toilet. We wrote a stern email to the builder (and cc'd in the architect) that we didn't want them using the upstairs toilet and we were not happy that they were uncleaned. We also asked that the tradies take care with their tools belts on the loo in case they chip our nice Duravit Stark 3 loo!! I was greeted with an abusive phone call from the Architect saying my email was out of order and the supervisor and tradies were ready to walk off site due to my behaviour. This has upset me no end and think they are out of order. This is our first build so we are not familar with the accepted practice. I would have thought that using your new loos is not the done thing, am I being unreasonable?? Cheers Here is the email we sent: We have been rather unhappy and disappointed about our personal toilets being used in lieu of a site toilet facility being made available to workers on site. However, in the spirit of co-operation we have not complained about this to date. Having said this, we are not pleased to learn now that more than one toilet is being used and both are being left in a soiled condition. Not only is this disgusting; but we think it unreasonable to permit all and sundry to use our brand new facilities. We expect only the downstairs toilet to be used by site personnel - please advise everyone that no toilets or any bathroom facilities upstairs are to be used. EDIT - If anyone can recommend a good building inspector in Perth please let me know Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 2Feb 14, 2012 3:23 pm Hi, I don't think there's a common practice with tradies using the toilet. I totally can empathize with you being upset to see your beautiful house being treated like a public toilet. However, as you've pointed out, your house has not reached practical completion, should you really be in there without the SS? Perhaps you can ask to visit the site together with the SS, if you find the 'present' whilst with the SS, well that's a different story and he will actually be rather embarassed. For them to deliver your house ready for handover inspection, it is their duty to clean up every bit of mess they've left behind, in and outside the toilet. So I would not be worried with the 'presents' they leave at this stage. As long as it's not something like a leaking tap causing flooding and structural damage, I personally am not too fussed. Good luck and hope the rest of your build is problem free cheers jim Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 3Feb 14, 2012 3:31 pm I am very interested to hear if this is normal practise. Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 4Feb 14, 2012 3:36 pm True ... it's not your house till it's handed over but second hand toilets??? ... I don't think many of us would like that! I noticed when we had our PCI the SS went into the ensuite and flushed the toilet ... wonder what was there??? It would be nice to think no-one has used them before you but highly unlikely .... For info on our build: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=43093 Built the McLaren by Dechellis - slab down 22 Feb - handover 30 Aug 2011 - and gardens finished 9 Dec 2012!! Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 5Feb 14, 2012 3:39 pm This is where what you put out eventually comes back to you I guess - regardless of how peeved you were you probably could have initially sent more cordial request asking the tradies to respect the facilities and that you'd appreciate them not using the upstairs at all (after all the only thing hostility usually begets is more hostility). Having said that the architect replying with a threat to walk off the job no matter how your request was worded is well out of line - after all you are paying them in the end so the "greasing of the wheels" needs to happen in both directions. Having 20-20 hindsight is admittedly a wonderful thing but it doesn't help change what has happened in the past and there is no point crying over split milk, so it's time to move on and try to resolve the situation at hand - what you want is an amicable outcome here in the end instead of building on the current level of hostility between the two sides because that be counter-productive in all sorts of ways in the long run. If it were me then I'd swallow a bit of pride, contact the architect / site supervisor again apologising if they were taken aback by the phrasing of your previous request as it was not really your intention and that you would like to discuss and resolve the issue in a more cordial manner - perhaps by rephrasing the suggestion that they stick to using the downstairs and respect the facilities by cleaning up after themselves as much as is practical. You could even mention that when you were taking the in-laws through the house they unfortunately saw what was left behind in the upstairs toilet, which is why you're embarrassed/upset about the situation and therefore had the initial reaction that you did. As a gesture of good faith could even you could even suggest providing the cleaning implements/supplies yourselves to maintain the condition of the downstairs toilet - after all it's a bit hard to clean up after yourself if you've made a bit of a mess if you have nothing to do it with other than toilet paper. In the end what is boils down to is whether you really want the situation to blow up even further over them using the toilet when it is a trivial thing that should be able to be resolved without fuss? Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 6Feb 14, 2012 4:02 pm The way I would see it as long as the toilet is in brand new condition when the house is presented to you it doesnt matter what they do in the house because technically it isnt yours until settlement. http://lindeman28.blogspot.com - Our building blog Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 7Feb 14, 2012 4:12 pm Hi, As a plumber who installs the odd toilet in new homes, i would think you have every right to expect to be the first to use your toilets. I also think the tradies need to be able to meet the calls of nature and it is up to the builder to supply the porta loo right up to the time that they hand over the keys. Sound like they are trying to save a few bucks on porta loo hire at your expense. My wife would have me replacing the toilets before she moved in. Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 8Feb 14, 2012 4:17 pm Thanks for your replies, I have since spoken with the Building Commission and they advised that they should not be using any of the plumbing until it has been completed and signed off. It has been a bit of a difficult build with me having to fix things they refuse to do, such as I have been at the house for the last 4 weekends fixing the sandstone that they wrecked with grout and refused to fix. I agree that it is best to calm the situation down and try to get it finished. Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 9Feb 14, 2012 4:44 pm Yeah that's not ideal - the more you can smooth the waters the sooner it will all be over and you can enjoy your new home. The bit about the tradies not using the loo until the plumbing is all signed off on possibly being in play is a bit of a worry - not because of the rule itself which I knew, but because I would think the builder -must- know that the plumbing must be completed and signed off on before the toilets can be used. Gee I hope that is the case because it could be a right pita if it's not. Edit: I just saw your letter and I'm afraid you grossly overestimated how "stern" your email was - the architect is nothing more than a big sooky lala and his threats in light of that are laughable. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 10Feb 14, 2012 6:11 pm hmmmm - Funny how after signing the contract and being so far in the project they all get sooo touchy. The home owners are made to feel like walking on egg shells every time they raise an issue... If it’s not an immediate reaction, like the one you had from your architect, it comes in the form of “you complain - we will do a crap fix so you know where you stand” I wonder if the architect will be so accommodating to have the tradies using his toilets... It does happen because the builder either is not supplying a portaloo or because they are too lazy to go to the one outside and prefer to use a "new" toilet Based on your email the architect had no grounds to be so reactive - it's only natural that you will feel upset for some strangers using your new toilets you probably paid a fortune to have installed. Good luck and I hope you will enjoy your house despite these episodes... Preliminary agreement 23/11 Contract 22/03 Prestart 06/04 - finalised on 30/04 Unconditional approval 10/05 Demolition 05/07 Slab 26/08 Brickwork 13/09-06/10 Roof frame started 07/10 viewtopic.php?f=31&t=32292 Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 11Feb 14, 2012 7:52 pm Shame you used who you did to build your home as i think any decent builder would not use it out of 1) respect and 2) the fact the plumbing hasnt been signed off on.
You have a contract they cant get out of and i would call the building commission again and tell them there are no porta loos on site, i am sure it would be part of the rules that there should b one I say stuff them, its your 'new' home and thats how it should be delivered to you Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 12Feb 15, 2012 12:25 pm You paid for brand new toilets, but the builder is giving you second hand? The builder should : 1) Give you second hand price for the toilets (rather than charging you brand new price) or 2) Get them to rip out the toilets, and install brand new ones. Maybe it's the builders way of "testing" the toilets to see if they work, before they hand them over to you? Has the stove/oven been installed? Did the builder use them prior? If so, then they are no longer brand new as well. Get the builder and his mates to defecate on architect's toilet and cook on his stove instead, and see how the architect would feel. Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 13Feb 15, 2012 2:45 pm I have spoken with a few people at work who are building and they have been in the same situation. Their advice was: what the builder is doing is wrong but it happens a lot over here (W.A.). In his situation they did have a portaloo but no one used it. He suggested that I "pick my battles" and this was one that was not worth the fight. Just check it all over at hand over for any damage. The builder is just trying to save as much as he can by getting rid of the portaloo. At least the portaloos are kept clean by the supplier, in our case they aren't even doing this! Our plumbing fittings were a Provisional Sum in the Contract, which means I supplied them but the builder still gets his cut on the price....I have to admit the building process has been one of the most stressful and dissappointing things I have ever done! Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 14Feb 15, 2012 4:05 pm The plumbing may have been signed off. If the house is not completed, it is not yours yet, are you not in breach of contract being on the premises? Let alone taking other people through?? In addition, if you have an architect / project manager you should have spoken to them and let them deal with the contractors. That is their job. You might not be happy with them using the toilet, but they probably have just cause to have issues with you at the moment Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 15Feb 15, 2012 4:32 pm tjilpi, we are using a different contract to the standard one and I can be on site when ever I like. It is a small builder and the email was directed to the company owner not to the tradies. If the builder doesn't provide a portaloo then what are the tradies to do? I don't have an issue with the tradesmen, they need to be provided with clean, working facilities. The builder hasn't cleaned our loo in the 8 weeks they have been using them. The plumbing wouldn't have been signed off as they haven't finished installing everything yet. When they started using the loo 2 months ago there was a heap of work to be done. They should have no issue with me given I have spent the last 4 weekends at my cost (~$3000) cleaning the sandstone they destroyed and refused to fix. Our contract also requires us to pay for the cost of work each month, so in reality it is ours since we have paid for all the work completed. It is the critical phase where we have paid 90% of the total contract price, but it would cost more to finish the rest off ourselves. Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 16Feb 15, 2012 11:33 pm wow - I can't believe the "they probably have just cause to have issues with you at the moment" or "breach of the contract being on the premises"??? wow talking about nastiness here... why? I thought this forum is here to seek support and advice, not insult and attack people who seek it. Our builder had no problems with us coming on the site as long as we had decent shoes on and used common sense around building materials... you have no idea how many times we had to lock the house after the tradies left for the day... Preliminary agreement 23/11 Contract 22/03 Prestart 06/04 - finalised on 30/04 Unconditional approval 10/05 Demolition 05/07 Slab 26/08 Brickwork 13/09-06/10 Roof frame started 07/10 viewtopic.php?f=31&t=32292 Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 17Feb 16, 2012 4:51 am IF you aren't in a hurry for completion I would call the rude arrogant architects bluff and write to him threatening to go to the media (Today Tonight, the Press etc) unless the portaloo is replaced immediately. I would check building codes to see if its legal for the portaloo to be removed, in a penny-pinching move, before the job is completed -- even though a working toilet is inside Nothing gets a builder doing a do-do in his pants quicker than the media crawling all over one of his jobs and the bad publicity it brings. Arfur Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 18Feb 16, 2012 11:21 am Bagheera, not sure what you are on about, but talking about building contracts is hardly nasty, nor a personal attack on anyone.The original post was about a difference of opinion between a customer and a company they have contracted to do a job However, I do think getting a current affairs show to do a piece on builders using a toilet is a bit of an over reaction. To the OP. Have you read through your contact to ensure use of toilets in the house, once operational, is disallowed. I have to admit, I don't find this a huge issue. Builders work on low margins to get the initial job. If they can lower costs by using a functional toilet instead of a portaloo I can see why they would want to do so. If the house is pristinely clean on handover, including the toilets, what is the problem? After all, every day we use toilets others have used before us. I guess with all the issues around the country at moment, and larger problems people are facing, tradies using toilets seems like a minor issue. However, it's your house and to you it is an issue, so I hope you can resolve it However, the correct channels would be to go through your project manager. Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 19Feb 16, 2012 12:38 pm For what its worth, I'm of the opinion that it is not acceptable for tradies to use your new loos. This is because you already have to pay for the provision of a portaloo as part of your site costs and you can be sure the builder also takes a handsome margin for the privilege. Secondly as has been pointed out, tradies don't usually take care to leave your new facilities in a clean state. This is just plain disrespectful. I'm sure they don't go to their friends' homes and pi$$ and $hit all over the WC. If you are paying the prices that we are paying for our new homes it is reasonable to expect our homes not to be treated like public rest rooms. This is an issue that I encountered during my build but considering all the other problems it was not something I lost any sleep over. I simply got my builder to agree to replacing all my toilet seats and lids and professionally sanitizing my loos on the day of handover. I then marked the lids and seats discreatly with a permanent marker to be sure they were actually replaced. Months later, the day of handover arrives and when I get to the house the SS tells me that he personally replaced the lids and seats earlier and that the cleaner had just left before I arrived. Well this enraged me to no end because we clearly agreed it would be done in my presence. I went to inspect the loos with the SS and I wasn't particarly surprised to find that he wasn't telling the truth as the lids and seats still had my markings on them. After exchanging some choice words I stormed out and abandoned handover. The builder contacted me to reschedule handover to the following week and agreed to pay another $250 in liquidated damages for the delay. The next week the sheepish SS had to replace the seats and lids in front of me and the cleaner they engaged used such high strength industrial cleaners that I could smell them for a whole week afterwards. Depending on your personal circumstances you do not necessarily have to pick your battles. I fought every single battle and didn't give an inch. And my reward is that I have a house that I am very happy with and the certainty of knowing it is built to building codes and standards. Yes the build was delayed by almost a year but it was all time that I was compensated for in liquidated damages. I built with a volume builder and had a standard HIA contract however I had access to the house because I was engaged as a contractor. Re: New House - Tradies Using Loo?? 20Feb 16, 2012 12:42 pm tjilpi If the house is pristinely clean on handover, including the toilets, what is the problem? That's how I see it too, I don't think there's a problem with voicing your concerns, but when it comes down to it, if it's clean when you get it, that's all that should matter. Elvis has left the building... The site supervisor quit after 2 month on the project. I guess he was just instructed to bark at people, but didn't like when he was… 26 20901 Broker here - legislation says that every true broker must put the clients best interests before theirs so in theory they must offer you the best options for you on their… 2 46013 0 2020 |