Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Aug 30, 2011 5:52 pm Hi all.. I would really appreciate if someone could help us out on this one.. especially if someone's got a building background.. We are building a new house and wanted to add eaves to the front, but we didn't want them to droop from the roof, so the builder sorted us out by elevating the roof at the front of the house (image attached below - contract drawings). We liked the idea and signed the contracts. Now the site has started and the builder send me the final drawings and lo & behold.. the eaves were drooping from the roof (image attached below - pre-build drawings) So i went back and raised the issue to which they said that the contract drawings were wrong and someone had made an error. So adding the eaves isn't possible as per the contract drawings and the only option for us is to continue with the new drawings. We are not really sold on this and don't like the new designs at all. Can someone please advise on this.. is there no way the eaves can be added as per the initial drawings ? Thanks in advance.. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 2Aug 30, 2011 6:04 pm The problem you have got is that you only want eaves on the front. This means that its not just the cost of the eaves that are involved its the fact that you will need extra courses of brickwork on the sides and rear of the house. The builder may not have thought this through initially and then realised the omission. IMHO Its not that it can't be done just a matter of cost. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 3Aug 30, 2011 6:50 pm Exactly - if it's only to the front that's how it will look - also will your garage be on the boundary/fence line? This is usually how the eave has to finish if this is the case. If yo aren't on the boundary maybe think about putting eaves on that side of the garage or something!? Sleven Moved into our Atlantique MkII 36 by Carlisle Homes Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 4Aug 30, 2011 8:42 pm sleven Exactly - if it's only to the front that's how it will look - also will your garage be on the boundary/fence line? This is usually how the eave has to finish if this is the case. If yo aren't on the boundary maybe think about putting eaves on that side of the garage or something!? The garage is on the boundary, so we can't have eaves on that side. We initially added the eaves only to the front of the house due to budget constraints. By the time we realized that it'll be a better idea to add the eaves to the whole house, we were already in the per-contract stage and the builder wasn't going to make any changes. bashworth IMHO Its not that it can't be done just a matter of cost. yep.. that's what we are thinking that it's more of a cost issue and now the builder want us to go with the cheaper option. EDIT: So now the question is.. if it's really a cost issue, should we take a stand, as this is what we signed up for in the contract ? That said, the builder hasn't even admitted it being a cost issue and saying that it just can't be done ! Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 6Sep 01, 2011 8:42 am "can't be done" is builder's language, it doesn't mean it actually can't be done. I was told that a window splashback in the kitchen couldn't go all the way up to the bottom of the overhead cupboards. After a month of discussion it turns out they can, but the cupboards will have to be changed. So "it can't be done" actually meant "it'll require another change to make it work". The approach I took was to ask for the technical reason why it can't be done. When I kept pushing for the technical details, that's when they finally pushed their technical staff to look at the issue properly, and found that it actually could be done. So the issue was getting the front line staff to push the technical staff enough. I had the advantage of having photos of a display home where this HAD been done.. if you can get photos of a house which does what you want, then you can prove it's possible. Metricon Riva 33 - http://herlihy-riva.blogspot.com Site start 15/03/2010 - Handover 23/12/2010 9 months and 8 days (284 calendar days) from site start to handover Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 7Sep 01, 2011 9:18 am btherl "can't be done" is builder's language, it doesn't mean it actually can't be done. I was told that a window splashback in the kitchen couldn't go all the way up to the bottom of the overhead cupboards. After a month of discussion it turns out they can, but the cupboards will have to be changed. So "it can't be done" actually meant "it'll require another change to make it work". The approach I took was to ask for the technical reason why it can't be done. When I kept pushing for the technical details, that's when they finally pushed their technical staff to look at the issue properly, and found that it actually could be done. So the issue was getting the front line staff to push the technical staff enough. I had the advantage of having photos of a display home where this HAD been done.. if you can get photos of a house which does what you want, then you can prove it's possible. Thanks for the suggestion btherl, I'm definitely gonna ask them for a technical reason.. I have seen this done somewhere, but can't seem to find the bl00dy pic Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 8Sep 01, 2011 9:48 am Just remember that extra cost (if there is any) for the variation will be at your expense if the builder does agree to do it and be prepared to pay if it is really what you want - it wont be a freebie because a non-standard change like this will require changes to the frame, brickwork, roof trusses, etc from what the builder would normally incorporate for that house style. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 9Sep 01, 2011 10:42 am cmhamilton Just remember that extra cost (if there is any) for the variation will be at your expense if the builder does agree to do it and be prepared to pay if it is really what you want - it wont be a freebie because a non-standard change like this will require changes to the frame, brickwork, roof trusses, etc from what the builder would normally incorporate for that house style. But see here's the thing.. we signed up for this design at the contract with all costs included. Now, the builder has reverted the change back saying it can't be done.. So really its' the builder who's doing the variation rather than us Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 10Sep 01, 2011 11:42 am Here's the thing - it sounds like the sales consultant obviously made a mistake when making the "change" and didn't factor in the extra costs (ie. bricking, frame, etc), which someone more knowledgeable balked at when the actual plans were drawn up.. You can argue it to death all you want, but I doubt that they will throw in a structural change like this for free and to be perfectly honest nothing is set in stone (especially for a mis-priced costing) for an item until the final site survey/contract engineering is done and the final build contract/plans are put together (which is why builders "tolerate" variations before the build contract/plans are finalised even though they make noises about charges for contract variations a lot of the time). I can almost guarantee you they will not wear the extra cost themselves - you can try and if they do agree to make the change for free then that's fantastic, but don't be disappointed if they don't budge on it and be prepared to pay the extra for it if you really want it. The other option you have is walking away and going elsewhere - which is the ultimate power a customer always has at their disposal - but you may lose your deposit (or some part thereof). I'm sorry that this isn't the "pat on the back"/"stand your ground tiger" pep talk you were hoping for, but I've read and heard too many other stories of builders not budging when a variation has not been costed properly by the sales consultant to believe otherwise (and a lot of the time they are cosmetic variations, not structural ones) so you probably need to be realistic about things if it is what you really want. Still having said that it never hurts to ask as has been intimated previously and that is what you should be doing - if they say it can actually be done but it's going to cost you extra then at least you can make an informed decision about whether the variation is worth it to you or not based on the cost. Money has a funny habit of changing how people feel about things they want to have in their house design sometimes and I'm sure most H1'ers can relate to that sentiment - get the information you need and make the decision that feels right for you. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 11Sep 01, 2011 1:11 pm cmhamilton.. It wasn't the sales assistance, but the building administrator who made the change for us. As far as i'm aware, building administrators are pretty much aware of the fact that there are costs associated with the structural changes and they always do costings before approving a change. And surely the drafting team doing it must have some idea as to what they were doing.. I want to be realistic in this case, but what pi$$es me off is that if it was a pricing mistake, no one is admitting it. All i'm getting is that it just can't be done ! They changed the designs as they felt like without even consulting us with the available options. And now all I'm hearing is that I have no option, but to move ahead with the final drawings (which I never approved!) as the construction has started. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 12Sep 01, 2011 1:23 pm baronx cmhamilton.. It wasn't the sales assistance, but the building administrator who made the change for us. As far as i'm aware, building administrators are pretty much aware of the fact that there are costs associated with the structural changes and they always do costings before approving a change. And surely the drafting team doing it must have some idea as to what they were doing.. I want to be realistic in this case, but what pi$$es me off is that if it was a pricing mistake, no one is admitting it. All i'm getting is that it just can't be done ! They changed the designs as they felt like without even consulting us with the available options. And now all I'm hearing is that I have no option, but to move ahead with the final drawings (which I never approved!) as the construction has started. In any case it was a stuff up and because it's a structural variation it was never going to be a freebie I suspect - did you have a (significant) costed variation in your (signed) build contract that the roof was to be raised, because if there wasn't then the alarm bells have started ringing right there and then for me. (side note: is your "building administrator" the PD version of our "Customer Service Consultant" over at Big M? If so then don't necessarily make the assumption that they always know what they are doing when it comes to variations because that's certainly not always the case) I've noted in the other thread that they have moved to site start without giving you time to review the final drawings (it would have been nice to know this at the start of your thread) which imo they should be doing anyway but it appears that PD don't do it, so as the person who replied to your post in the PD thread said jump up and down until you get some form of resolution - it needs to be quick though because your frame materials/roof trusses would be close to production if they haven't already been manufactured. You may still have to pay for the cost of having the higher roof at the front (if it is still possible to have it done), but stand your ground on any additional variation charge they try to hit you with if it does work out - hopefully Ebony can help you out as she seems to be a pretty helpful lass (I wish we had someone like that for our builder). Good luck and I hope it all works out for you one way or another. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 13Sep 01, 2011 7:55 pm cmhamilton In any case it was a stuff up and because it's a structural variation it was never going to be a freebie I suspect - did you have a (significant) costed variation in your (signed) build contract that the roof was to be raised, because if there wasn't then the alarm bells have started ringing right there and then for me. (side note: is your "building administrator" the PD version of our "Customer Service Consultant" over at Big M? If so then don't necessarily make the assumption that they always know what they are doing when it comes to variations because that's certainly not always the case) I've noted in the other thread that they have moved to site start without giving you time to review the final drawings (it would have been nice to know this at the start of your thread) which imo they should be doing anyway but it appears that PD don't do it, so as the person who replied to your post in the PD thread said jump up and down until you get some form of resolution - it needs to be quick though because your frame materials/roof trusses would be close to production if they haven't already been manufactured. You may still have to pay for the cost of having the higher roof at the front (if it is still possible to have it done), but stand your ground on any additional variation charge they try to hit you with if it does work out - hopefully Ebony can help you out as she seems to be a pretty helpful lass (I wish we had someone like that for our builder). Good luck and I hope it all works out for you one way or another. Was just going through the HIA contact we signed with the builder and clause 16.3 states: "The Builder is not entitled to claim for extra costs for errors in Plans and/or Specifications that the Builder has prepared" Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 14Sep 01, 2011 8:17 pm Very true but beware the grumpy builder. Ours made a mistake costing our double glazing, the mistake was in our favor in the sense that we were etitled to get all our windows double glazed at a single glaze price. The catch was the contract said nothing about doors, the back of our house is a 7 door bi fold. We could have held them to the contract and paid the extra for the doors to be glazed, but in the end a compromize was reached where we paid for the glass at cost..all of it. That early compromize has paid us back in good faith and has meant our attention to detail has gone way up. There should be a reality game you can play...once you have your plans in place you put them in a simulator and let the fun begin. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 15Sep 02, 2011 2:28 am baronx cmhamilton In any case it was a stuff up and because it's a structural variation it was never going to be a freebie I suspect - did you have a (significant) costed variation in your (signed) build contract that the roof was to be raised, because if there wasn't then the alarm bells have started ringing right there and then for me. (side note: is your "building administrator" the PD version of our "Customer Service Consultant" over at Big M? If so then don't necessarily make the assumption that they always know what they are doing when it comes to variations because that's certainly not always the case) I've noted in the other thread that they have moved to site start without giving you time to review the final drawings (it would have been nice to know this at the start of your thread) which imo they should be doing anyway but it appears that PD don't do it, so as the person who replied to your post in the PD thread said jump up and down until you get some form of resolution - it needs to be quick though because your frame materials/roof trusses would be close to production if they haven't already been manufactured. You may still have to pay for the cost of having the higher roof at the front (if it is still possible to have it done), but stand your ground on any additional variation charge they try to hit you with if it does work out - hopefully Ebony can help you out as she seems to be a pretty helpful lass (I wish we had someone like that for our builder). Good luck and I hope it all works out for you one way or another. Was just going through the HIA contact we signed with the builder and clause 16.3 states: "The Builder is not entitled to claim for extra costs for errors in Plans and/or Specifications that the Builder has prepared" What you need to do next is go through your signed build contract and see if there is any reference to the variation for the front elevation of the roof. If the change to the roof and subsequent supporting structures is mentioned there somewhere within the build contract specification/variations you have signed and it has been removed without a signed variation being lodged then you have a case on the grounds of the builder not fulfilling their obligations as set out in clause 16.1. It may very well be the case that the specifications would take priority over the (amended) plan drawings as any non-standard change to the plans would need to be described clearly in the specifications document or a signed variation and - even though volume builders do have a get-out clause that the design will follow the standard plan except when there is a signed variation in the contract specifications or a signed variation even if it is just a passing reference to the plan drawings - that very same provision is a double edged sword because any stipulation that is present in the contract or a signed variation will override that aspect of the standard plan (in your favour). If that is the case then you you need to raise this with your BA (again) in whatever way it takes to do so asap. That would subsequently mean that your stance has some (more) traction and you have a more solid position to negotiate from and I do mean negotiate if you want the issue to be resolved as quickly as possible - trust me when I say you really don't want this to have to go before VCAT or even Consumer affairs. If the alteration to the roof was not mentioned in the contract specification or in a signed variation which amends the initial contract then I think you may have a bit more of a problem - but that's a bridge you can cross if/when you come to it. Do whatever you have to do to have this heard even if you have to go there in person. Getting some legal advice wouldn't be such a bad idea either, perhaps giving the BACV (Building Advice and Conciliation Victoria) hotline a go might not hurt to get a realistic perspective on the issue from a legal standpoint. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 16Sep 02, 2011 11:14 am cmhamilton What you need to do next is go through your signed build contract and see if there is any reference to the variation for the front elevation of the roof. If the change to the roof and subsequent supporting structures is mentioned there somewhere within the build contract specification/variations you have signed and it has been removed without a signed variation being lodged then you have a case on the grounds of the builder not fulfilling their obligations as set out in clause 16.1. It may very well be the case that the specifications would take priority over the (amended) plan drawings as any non-standard change to the plans would need to be described clearly in the specifications document or a signed variation and - even though volume builders do have a get-out clause that the design will follow the standard plan except when there is a signed variation in the contract specifications or a signed variation even if it is just a passing reference to the plan drawings - that very same provision is a double edged sword because any stipulation that is present in the contract or a signed variation will override that aspect of the standard plan (in your favour). If that is the case then you you need to raise this with your BA (again) in whatever way it takes to do so asap. That would subsequently mean that your stance has some (more) traction and you have a more solid position to negotiate from and I do mean negotiate if you want the issue to be resolved as quickly as possible - trust me when I say you really don't want this to have to go before VCAT or even Consumer affairs. If the alteration to the roof was not mentioned in the contract specification or in a signed variation which amends the initial contract then I think you may have a bit more of a problem - but that's a bridge you can cross if/when you come to it. Do whatever you have to do to have this heard even if you have to go there in person. Getting some legal advice wouldn't be such a bad idea either, perhaps giving the BACV (Building Advice and Conciliation Victoria) hotline a go might not hurt to get a realistic perspective on the issue from a legal standpoint. cmhamilton.. ur a legend ! thank u so much for pointing me towards BACV.. i didn't even knew they existed. They recon that we have a case here as the plans clearly show how the eaves were to be done. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 17Sep 03, 2011 7:12 pm Glad I could help - you've got to move quick now because if they put the wrong frame up at the front of the house you might be stuck with a significant delay to get it rectified... Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 18Sep 05, 2011 11:20 am cmhamilton Glad I could help - you've got to move quick now because if they put the wrong frame up at the front of the house you might be stuck with a significant delay to get it rectified... Sorry for the late update, but i got a call from a manager at PD on Friday arvo.. He was quite apologetic for everything and said that he'll get back to me today as he had just found abt all this. So for the time being, i've put a hold on the legal steps recommended by BACV. Re: Correct way to add eaves to a house 19Sep 12, 2011 9:59 pm We've finally come to a resolution with the builder. The manager was happy to raise the front projection & the portico and leave slightly smaller (450mm) eaves on only this area. The rest of the eaves were deleting. Plus we get a charge back for the deleted eaves. Haven't got the final drawings yet, hopefully will be receiving them by post tomorrow and fingers crossed they don't change anything else. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Update from me! Couldn't find the trimmer - not sure if there isn't one simply because the eave is so narrow. Went ahead with the spring toggles and it all worked out… 7 5877 The two 15mm holes are obviously not compliant. The Dept of Fair Trading would love to see this one! Do the gutters pool water after it stops raining? Although it's… 4 7868 go upvc window frames ensure insulation under colorbond. not just sarking, lighter color roof also not sure if you have seen this viewtopic.php?t=5823 last couple of pages… 4 110574 |